Not By Works

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benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
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what do you mean finally?

i have answered all of your questions... many of which multiple times

and i always do as quickly as im able.....


(another example of me answering not only this questions but all your others)






and Jesus does elaborate

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(still speaking of brith and trying to relate the two.... born of water = anatomical fluid and born of the Spirit = when God makes His children new)

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

(again further explaining the two births.... flesh = water Spirit = God)
What I mean is, it does not matter to me that you answered my questions. I reject your interpretation of what you think 'born of water' means. There should be no mystery here, I am confortable with my 'water baptism by immersion' interpretation of what Jesus meant by 'born of water', and I do not believe that Jesus meant your first birth out of the womb covered in amniotic fluid as what it means to be 'born of water'. So we can move to another subject.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
What I mean is, it does not matter to me that you answered my questions. I reject your interpretation of what you think 'born of water' means. There should be no mystery here, I am confortable with my 'water baptism by immersion' interpretation of what Jesus meant by 'born of water', and I do not believe that Jesus meant your first birth out of the womb covered in amniotic fluid as what it means to be 'born of water'. So we can move to another subject.
understood.....
i wont try to hammer it in

the seeds been planted....


what would someone like you say about
1)
romans 4
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


what do think this even means?


also

2)
Romans 3:28 - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law


or
3)
Ephesians Chapter 2

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


4)Galatians 5:6 - For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love


5)Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
And he simply defined that in Acts 11:26


romans 1
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

4100. pisteuó ►
Strong's Concordance
pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
The Apostles Creed defines who is and isn't a Christian. Jehovah Witnesses web site says they do not believe Jesus is God incarnate. Therefore they are not Christians. Also Jesus said, "I and the Father are one."

THE APOSTLES CREED
() Not included in earliest manuscripts. This is an upgrade of the Roman Creed created in the 200s. This Creed is dated to 312.

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth; And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried. (He descended into Hell.) The third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from there He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy universal church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.

Amen.


Probable wording of the Roman Creed.

Roman Creed

I believe in God the Father almighty, and in Christ Jesus, his only Son, our Lord, and in the Holy Spirit, the holy Church, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the flesh.
You also realize that Jesus also said that I and the Father and the apostles and those who believe in the apostles are one. Are you OK with that saying?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
romans 1
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

4100. pisteuó ►
Strong's Concordance
pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.
Of course you must believe in Jesus in order to be a disciple of Christ, so your scripture is good, and has not added human interpretations on to Acts 11:26
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
Of course you must believe in Jesus in order to be a disciple of Christ, so your scripture is good, and has not added human interpretations on to Acts 11:26
added interpretations would be to suggest acts 11:26 is saying something it isnt

:rolleyes:

anyways just in case you missed it....



what would someone like you say about
1)
romans 4
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


what do you think this even means?


also

2)
Romans 3:28 - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law


or
3)
Ephesians Chapter 2

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


4)Galatians 5:6 - For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love


5)Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,022
4,441
113
I'm saying that just because someone thinks they have had a spiritual moment in their life and they think they have been born again, and they think they believe in Christ, it is not an automatic path to eternal life. In fact it is just the beginning of their journey to eternal life. Those who stay on the right path and are doers of the word, and endure to the end will receive their reward of eternal life. Those that do not, will not.

When Jesus says that if you believe in me, you will have eternal life, he is assuming that your belief will lead you to love him and do those things that he asks us to do. If you do not do these things, he will acknowledge that he knew you not and your salvation is lost.
Evening benhur.

Can I ask you whether you believe that God knows whether you will endure to the end or not?
Whether he knows that anyone who places genuine saving faith in him will endure to the end?
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
No. God defines who is and isn't Christian...
The Bible is God's word.
Reading God's word the definition of what is required to be a Christian is found.
Those verses are used to create the Apostles Creed by the early elders.
Therefore it is a Biblical definition of what a Christian is.
I defy you to read it and find a flaw. It has stood the test of time for 1700 years.
Put up or shut up.
Waiting for your refutation!!!
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
The Bible is God's word.
Reading God's word the definition of what is required to be a Christian is found.
Those verses are used to create the Apostles Creed by the early elders.
Therefore it is a Biblical definition of what a Christian is.
I defy you to read it and find a flaw. It has stood the test of time for 1700 years.
Put up or shut up.
Waiting for your refutation!!!

you defy me? lol....

the flaw was your assumption

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.


___________

you believe anyone needs to have any understanding regarding any specific church (holy catholic church) in order to be a Christian?


do you believe someone needs to have the knowledge Jesus was born of a virgin to have a saving faith?


you said this defines who is a Christian

i said God defines who is a Christian


you can easily be saved without ever even hearing of the "apostles creed" by grace through faith


not picking at you

just being honest

the apostles creed has nothing to do at all with who will and who wont be saved

it is entirely Gods will that decides and defines this
 
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benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
understood.....
i wont try to hammer it in

the seeds been planted....


what would someone like you say about
1)
romans 4
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


what do think this even means?


also

2)
Romans 3:28 - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law


or
3)
Ephesians Chapter 2

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


4)Galatians 5:6 - For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love


5)Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work
Romans 4:5 Paul is telling us that it is not work of the law which justifies a man before God. I believe that saying of Paul.

I also believe that when Paul refers to works, he is referring to the works of the law, which cannot save. He was a Pharasidic Jew and they believed that if you just kept the law you would be saved. By the time of Christ they had eliminated Christ from the equation and just believed that the law was their Savior.

Paul is introducing the role of Jesus to them. He that worketh not the works of the law, but believeth on Jesus, who justifies the ungodly (and we are all ungodly), his faith is counted as righteousness. It is a true statement.

Paul also says in 2 Timothy 3:17 that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. This tells me that my belief in Christ, must be accompanied with a good works component in order for me to be a perfect man before God.

So I believe that I am not just a hearer of the word of Jesus, but also a doer of the words of Jesus and the combination of my good works, wrought for the glory of God and in the love of Jesus Christ (and not for my own salvation and self righteousness, since we know that can not save me) and the justification that Jesus offers me as an ungodly person, through my belief in him, and along with his grace, prove to be a pure path to eternal life.

The same answer applies to all the scriptures you gave me.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Evening benhur.

Can I ask you whether you believe that God knows whether you will endure to the end or not?
Whether he knows that anyone who places genuine saving faith in him will endure to the end?
I believe God has known us from all eternities, even up until this day. So yes, God knows whether you will endure to the end or not.

God also knows who will put genuine saving faith in him and that they will also endure to the end.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
Romans 4:5 Paul is telling us that it is not work of the law which justifies a man before God. I believe that saying of Paul.

I also believe that when Paul refers to works, he is referring to the works of the law, which cannot save. He was a Pharasidic Jew and they believed that if you just kept the law you would be saved. By the time of Christ they had eliminated Christ from the equation and just believed that the law was their Savior.

Paul is introducing the role of Jesus to them. He that worketh not the works of the law, but believeth on Jesus, who justifies the ungodly (and we are all ungodly), his faith is counted as righteousness. It is a true statement.

Paul also says in 2 Timothy 3:17 that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. This tells me that my belief in Christ, must be accompanied with a good works component in order for me to be a perfect man before God.

So I believe that I am not just a hearer of the word of Jesus, but also a doer of the words of Jesus and the combination of my good works, wrought for the glory of God and in the love of Jesus Christ (and not for my own salvation and self righteousness, since we know that can not save me) and the justification that Jesus offers me as an ungodly person, through my belief in him, and along with his grace, prove to be a pure path to eternal life.

The same answer applies to all the scriptures you gave me.

hmmmm

lets say there are two men

1- has a genuine faith in Christ.... has been born agin
made new

but has not yet had 1 good work from the perspective of man... from the time he was born until the time he heard Gods call (as a grown man) he was a wicked sinner only looking to pleasure himself

and 15 hours after he believes on Jesus Christ .... truely....

seeking Him through prayer and His inspired written word

he passes away in the same bed where He heard His call


2- there is a man who says he believes in Jesus Christ as his lord and savior... this man learned of God at a young age and was instructed in His ways.... through a life of study and worship

he has many good works to back up his claim of faith

and he dies sharing the true message of the gospel (how we are saved by grace through faith lol)


would you think based on scripture both of these men are saved?



and do you think God cannot tell a genuine faith
from a flimsy faith that can be walked away from apart from the start?

do you think works are needed in order to show God who has and who doesnt have a genuine faith?


do you think these works play any part in justifying/glorifying a man BEFORE GOD (not man)
 
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AMEN. hello everyone ....does anyone here go to church?give 10% to your church?listen to your pastors guidance? etc.......
 
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and no I'm not here to argue or try to make a fool of someone just learning from each other(holy spirit)
 
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And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 25:32*-‬46 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/mat.25.32-46.KJV
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
you defy me? lol....

the flaw was your assumption

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.


___________

you believe anyone needs to have any understanding regarding any specific church (holy catholic church) in order to be a Christian?


do you believe someone needs to have the knowledge Jesus was born of a virgin to have a saving faith?


you said this defines who is a Christian

i said God defines who is a Christian


you can easily be saved without ever even hearing of the "apostles creed" by grace through faith


not picking at you

just being honest

the apostles creed has nothing to do at all with who will and who wont be saved

it is entirely Gods will that decides and defines this
In other words you are unable to refute what I said. Historically it was created by the early elders because of heresies and divisions in the church.

It defines where the line of heresy begins.

It allows the peripheral beliefs to be agree to disagree.

This defines who is and isn't a Christian. It is the core beliefs of a Christian. It isn't about salvation but the core beliefs that follow salvation.

Each denomination has doctrinal statements defining the doctrines of the denomination. This is essentially a core doctrinal statement.
 
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do you still think you don't need to do good works? if so why do you even do anything? for example go to church, give 10%,listen to your pastors(religious leaders), etc......shouldn't you not do anything since you believe that you don't have to do good works?
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
hebrews 10


35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
_____________


john 6


28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

___________


1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
quick bump for anyone who doesnt understand


once you are made new



you are saved


many wolves come here to attack Gods children

but it doesnt change the truth

;)


scripture flows in perfect harmony

and there is only one truth

may God bless any of you who seek Him with it
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
I get tired of people ranting about the Apostles Creed saying that it is something it isn't. It is a doctrinal statement defining who a Christian is. Nothing else!!