Not By Works

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Ariel82

Guest
Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another....

The Body of Christ
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, who apportions them to each one as He determines. 12The body is a unit,though it is comprised of many parts. And although its parts are many, they all form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free, and we were all given one Spirit to drink.…

You Ben have it wrong , not wanderer...
No Rose...for himself he has it right..he is not one with the Body..but we can hope and pray that one day he will know what it means to be born again and baptized with the Holy spirit.

If all you know is water baptism, then it makes sense to defend it and reject the idea of being One in body and One in Spirit.
 

benhur

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Feb 8, 2018
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Love and goodness is a state of being. A characteristic of a person who has walked with God, His Holy Spirit,

Do you know the difference between Martha and Mary?

Do you k ow the difference between focusing on good works and focusing on God?

For example, when my husband comes home from a long business trip he just wants me to sit down and spend time with him.....not rush around trying to "do" things for him but just be with him.

Maybe your love language is acts of love where you show your love for others by acts of service for them,

However you should recognize there is more than one way to show love.

Perhaps if you don't know them you should learn them?

God shows His love in so many ways. Its part of growing up and being mature in Christ to learn those ways and share them with others also.

You can't give what You never have taken the time to receive.

How do you feel and see God's love for you in your life?
Your thought are good. I may need to make some adjustments.

But when you call someone a loving person or a good person, is that because they stayed in their house and were not active in the community. Were they a loner, or a couch potato. No, it is because they were active and all people knew how loving they were towards their neighbors and towards them and how helpful they were, and how kind they were, etc., etc., etc.

It just seems that you want to downgrade good works to a point where you don't have to be involved with humanity, or help one another, or keep the commandments or any of that because it is a burden to do so. It seems that the whole grace thing is a way to get around doing good works in the first place, because it is a burden.

Is doing good works a burden to you? It should not be if you truly have faith in Jesus Christ and you are a new person in him.
Good works should be a natural outpouring of your love for Jesus and should be thought of as divinely ignited. We seem to be spinning around this idea that you don't have to do one thing to get eternal life except believe in Jesus. Not one thing. Just sit there on the couch and wait for the coming of Christ. Just saying.
 

benhur

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Depends on what you believe.....do you believe the true Gospel message that Jesus died for your sins upon the cross, was buried, rose again on the third day and ascended into heaven, that He sends His holy spirit so that we may be born again children of God and learn to walk in His ways....

If you believe that Gospel,then it's enough for God says that even we who are evil would not give a snake to a child who asks for fish.

.God who is so much more loving and good will give us what we ask if we truly desire only Him and His will to be done on earth as it is in Heaven.

However if you believe the gospel is just a get out of he'll free card or that you have to do a lot of works to prove how good you are, because Jesus was just a good example to follow....then no, it's not enough for that is a false gospel and faith in a false gospel will never be enough.

If you don't have the Holy spirit guiding you and leading you and comforting you, then you are NOT a child of GOD...no matter what your outward works may proclaim.
If the HS is indwelling in you, then you are going to be engaged in good works all the time. It is a natural outgrowth of the HS indwelling in you. Am I not right?
 

benhur

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Feb 8, 2018
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If he who believes will be saved (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24: 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) — “words directly from Jesus’ mouth,” not to mention (Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5 etc..). I believe that. Do you? Then he who believes and is baptized will be saved as well. I believe Jesus.
I believe Jesus too.
 
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How do you know that the thief on the cross was not saved before the cross, as hundreds of people were baptized by Jesus's disciples while Jesus looked on? He could have been 1 of them that believed.How do you know that the thief on the cross was not saved before the cross

The bible is silent in regards to his faith, deeds, works, or immersion. You must also be silent.

Therefore it would be presumptuous on your part to come to any conclusions because of what you think the thief's life experience was.
Funny how you contradict your own words to try and prove another false point that you push..........I want ALL to see how BENHUR contradicts himself on one point to push another false premise.....He disregards and contradicts himself on his belief that DEEDS prove salvation, makes a false comment about the silence of the bible just to push water salvation.

First his own words....HE rails on CHRIST....<---BY your words you will justified and or condemned.....

"Even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him with the same thing.” (Matthew 27:44)

SECOND HIS DEEDS.....<---THE BIBLE DOES INDEED SPEAK TO THIS

"Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.” But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” (Luke 23:39-43)

Historically and by Greek definition they were ROBBERS, not just ordinary THIEVES

The men identified in the crucifixion of JESUS were identified in the GREEK as ROBBERS (λῃσταὶ), rather than mere thieves (κλέπται).

These were brigands, robbers and very violent in nature and execution....they were know for being murderers and lest we forget Barabbas was with them and he is identified as a murderer and the men with him who WERE CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST were also called MURDERERS

The man named Barabbas had been imprisoned with the insurrectionists who had committed murder in the insurrection.

NO murderer HATH eternal LIFE dwelling in HIM

I CAN GO ON and do more...the above PROVES my stance that the robbers (thieves) crucified with JESUS were murderers....their words, their lives, their deeds prove that they were not saved, immersed or a member of any church before going to the cross. THEIR example IS the example that ALL humanity has....

a. MAN A HAD faith, even on his death bed with NO immersion, NO works and NO religious affiliation and was SAVED by the LORD for said faith

b. MAN B went to his death as a lost man with NO FAITH

It pleased God, by the foolishness of preaching to SAVE THEM THAT BELIEVE <---NO WORKS, NO WATER, NO RELIGIOUS AFFILIATION, but rather....SIMPLE FAITH!
 

benhur

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Feb 8, 2018
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Yeah, it is called scripture, history and bible 101......you should try the bible once in a while.....serious....
I will admit the first bible was created by a person by the name of Marcion. Who threw out the OT and did not include any of the 4 gospels, and only Paul. Sounds like your kind of guy. Oh by the way he was excommunicated from the church somewhere around 110.

The bible we read today was finally canonized around 325AD by Constantine and his bishop Eusebius, and a few others.
There were not exactly the books we have in the bible today, for instance they did not accept Revelation until later, and others were accepted later and some were finally left off. But this all took place in the 4th century.

By 95AD the book of Revelations probably did not exist and 1 John, 2 John, 3 John probably did not exist yet. So no on 95AD.

You need to show me the first bible of 95AD or study up yourself.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Maybe you did not understand....here...read it again....and understand....YOU do not believe the SAME THING he DOES and to say what YOU said is false, misleading and deceptive!

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

I know Mailmandan......and his belief....you do not believe the same thing he does....the fact that you try and include his belief with yours is tragic and not very honest.........he fully believes one is entirely saved eternally by faith alone......and if you took time to read the thread you will find that NOT one person who believes saved by grace through faith eternally has said that a believer will not bear fruit.
All fluff, does Mailmandan believe that good works will accompany true faith?
 
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I never said such a doctrine, don't call me blsphemous as you throw that word quite often to people who disagree with you.
Read it again s l o w l y I did not call you blasphemous, but rather to say Christ was not born the son of God until immersion....

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

Your first error is in bolded....the second...two cannot walk together unless agreed....you teach a vanilla twist gospel that is not truthful and or correct man....to even imply that Jesus was not born a son of God until immersion is as false and blasphemous as it comes.....
 

benhur

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NO I AM NOT.

You do not Know the GREEK TENSES, Do You? The KEEP is in the GREEK TENSE, called the Present Tense. It is NOT LIKE OUR Present Tense. It implies, an ON GOING LIFE STYLE of striving to KEEP, out of LOVE FOR HIM, after you have been BORN AGAIN.

You DO NOT EVER become un-born again. WHY, is YOU WILL NOT EVER GO BACK TO BEING a creature, without an ETERNAL LIVING HUMAN SPIRIT IN YOU. You only prove you WERE only kidding yourself, when you thought you were BORN AGAIN.

I do not think you have ever been Born Again, or you would understand me.

1 John 3:14-19 (HCSB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] If anyone has this world’s goods and sees his brother in need but closes his eyes to his ⌊need⌋—how can God’s love {Rom. 5:5} reside in him?
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Little children, we must not love with word or speech, but with truth and action.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] This is how we will know we belong to the truth and will convince our conscience in His presence,


IT IS PART OF THE LOVE GOD HAD THE HOLY SPIRIT PUT INTO OUR HEART, WHEN WE WERE SAVED AND BORN AGAIN.

You do not Understand do you? You think it is all Foolishness, don't you?


1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.


John 10:26-28 (HCSB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] But you don’t believe because you are not My sheep.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever!
No one will snatch them out of My hand.

2 Corinthians 10:17-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So the one who boasts must boast in the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For it is not the one commending himself who is approved, but the one the Lord commends.
Greek tenses, Greek fenses. Greek...
 
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My theology is not correct according to you. According to about 1/2 of Christendom though, it is correct. So we are not 1 body today, we are a separated body according to our beliefs. I have a feeling you would jetison all Christians that do not believe with 100% of what you believe. You would have to jetison the RC, most eastern Christians, and lots of western Christians, not even thinking about Mormon Christians, or SDA Christians or One Lord Christians etc., etc., etc. That is a major down side. But to the upside, what was left would then be one body, at least for a month or two.
Do you think the bolded gives credence or makes it correct....? Most believe we came from Monkeys or some electrified protein filled pool of sludge...does that make them right?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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It sure seems that way....I remember having arguments with close relatives who had this mentality that if it did not carry their particular name brand church that there is no way it could be correct.....such ignorance....
And you want to declare the Christian church is one body?
 
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Please show us the scripture that teaches our works save us.......

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HAS HE SAVED US!

now.....go back a read the cited post with understanding and no blinders on!
So you don’t believe we must obey the Gospel.

That is is an example of the obedience of faith.


Not the works of the law.

Not works that earn a wage.

Obedience.



Obeying the Gospel.


[FONT=&quot]in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8
[/FONT]



JPT
 
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And you want to declare the Christian church is one body?
Take time to read as I have always said the following....

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

The very use of the word churches and the fact that it is inspired in the plural form negates one universal church on the planet.

The very nature of the church and it being a LOCAL, visible body of believers negates one universal church on the planet.

The bible is clear....each local, visible assembly is a autonomous body of believers with Jesus as the head, they are individual in number, characteristics, stance before Jesus yet all with equal power, right and authority before the throne of God. The individual church letters written to all of the churches represented in the New Testament also bears out this truth.

Peter compares EACH assembly unto an individual body with Christ as the head.

Having said that, there is ONE body of believers in heaven.
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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Whatever you believe. Just what happened to Jesus when he decided to be baptized. First he was born again = water baptized by full immersion, by another human man. Then when he came up out of the water, he was born again of the Spirit = baptized of the Spirit. The HS came from above and settled upon him.

This is the same order that Peter taught in Acts 2. Remember: Repent, and be baptized for the remission of sins, and then receive the gift of the HS.

Do you see how the bible confirms that water baptism by full immersion is what Jesus meant when he said you must be born of the water. It all fits nicely.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Jesus was not born again for He is God manifest in flesh, conceived by the Holy Spirit in the virgin Mary, and the man Christ Jesus is the personal human body of God, so Jesus could not sin, and was sinless His whole life for He was always led of the Spirit and not the flesh, so He did not need to be born again.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus came to fulfill the law which means He had to do everything that a person had to do to be right with God to be our Savior, which means He had to be the perfect King, perfect High Priest, perfect saint, perfect Prophet, perfect sacrifice, and anything else He had to do that a person had to do to be perfect before God, and all the roles associated within the structure of Israel.

Mat 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Mat 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

John forbid Jesus to be baptized for he knew that Jesus did not need to be baptized for He is sinless, but Jesus said to John allow it to happen, for Jesus had to fulfill all righteousness.

Jesus did not need to do it for Himself, but He had to do it in the way of fulfilling all righteousness, and doing all that a person must do to be right with God, so if the people had to be baptized by John unto repentance then Jesus as a human had to do it too, for He had to fulfill the law and do everything that a person had to do to be right with God.

But Jesus did not do it to be born again for He was always sinless according to His humanity on earth.

Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

And the people that were baptized unto John's baptism had to be rebaptized in the name of the Lord, for John's baptism has nothing to do with being born again, so Jesus could not be born again with John's baptism, for no person was born again with John's baptism, for his baptism was only to turn their hearts to repentance and the acceptance of Jesus.

For that is why John came before Jesus to prepare the way for Jesus, and get Israel ready for His coming.

And Jesus would not be baptized with that baptism in the name of the Lord, for it was not done until after Jesus died and resurrected, and would Jesus be baptized in His own name, and Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and did not receive the Spirit later on for He is the Spirit in flesh.

And this is a misconception for Luke says that baptism is to be done in Jesus' name, and Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans were all baptized in Jesus' name, and Peter said baptize in Jesus' name, and there is no other name we are saved by but the name Jesus, and all we do in word and deed is to be done in Jesus' name.

And God the Father said in the Old Testament that He would reveal a new name to the Jews, and speak to them, and Jesus said if you have seen Me then you have seen the Father, for the words I speak are not My own, but the Father that dwells in Me, He does the works.

And Jesus said He came in His Father's name.

And the prophet Agur said what is God's name, and what is His Son's name, if you can tell, which means the Father and Son shall have the same name.

And the Son inherited the name from the Father, Hebrews 1.

And the Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.

The name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is Jesus.

Matthew said baptize in the name, singular, not plural, and Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are not names but titles,and Jesus is the name.

Which Luke and Peter interpreted what Matthew said to be in Jesus' name, because it is in Jesus' name.

So that is something many of them do not understand, so do not feel bad if you do not understand Jesus was not born again, for many of them do not understand that the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is Jesus, nor will they change their mind about it even if scripture kicks them upside the head like Bruce Lee, and such is the way of the world that likes to hear things their way, and many in the Church also do, especially their fleshy interpretation of the Bible because they like worldliness, fleshy pleasures, and going by their wants.

How is Father a name, how is Son a name, and how is Holy Spirit a name, and all we do in word or deed is to be done in Jesus' name.
 
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So you don’t believe we must obey the Gospel.

That is is an example of the obedience of faith.


Not the works of the law.

Not works that earn a wage.

Obedience.



Obeying the Gospel.


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8



JPT
So you don't believe.....blah, blah, blah......

It pleased God, by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

He that believes on the SON is having everlasting life.

Be not removed fro the simplicity that is found in Christ.

If you are here to dialogue then great, but when you start a post by saying.....SO you don't believe blah, blah, blah...tells me all I need to know about your motive and stance..........

It is FAITH that saves a man, not some legalistic adherence to a set of rules or regulations.......

The word obey can be simply translated to hearken, answer to and or listen unto ......context determines usage....the word here simply means those who do not hearken unto the GOSPEL MESSAGE......<---THE angel of the LORD flies through the midst of heaven in REVELATION proclaiming the everlasting GOSPEL to those on the planet...those who do not hearken unto the message WILL face the wrath of GOD.....this follows the statement on those who know not GOD AND those who REFUSE to HEARKEN unto the EVERLASTING GOSPEL....

Faith comes by HEARING (hearkening unto) and HEARING by the word of GOD

hupakouó: to listen, attend to
Original Word: ὑπακούω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hupakouó
Phonetic Spelling: (hoop-ak-oo'-o)
Short Definition: I listen, obey
Definition: I listen, hearken to, obey, answer.

Come on guys.....you will have to do better than that....the bible teaches a FAITH based salvation....NOT some working for, law abiding, self help guru I save myself farce.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Sorry, I and at least half of Christendom believe that verse refers to baptism by full immersion in the water. I'm not sure if there is a way to prove one way or the other.
Read it again SAM:


1 Corinthians 12:12-13 (NKJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.


That all Includes the THIEF on the Cross, and Every Death bed Confession that was ever made.

AND I am SURE, is also includes all True Saints of the OLD TESTAMENT, who BELIEVED GOD WOULD SEND A MESSIAH.
 
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DJ2

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Apr 15, 2017
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you are saved by grace alone, through faith, in Christ.
If grace must go through faith in order to be applied to us then it is not "grace alone". This is simply the proper use of the words you are choosing. In other words you are fighting your own words.

If mankind is given salvation strictly by grace then faith or anything else is not unnecessary. Alone means alone.
 

TruthTalk

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Jul 17, 2017
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Yeah, it is called scripture, history and bible 101......you should try the bible once in a while.....serious....
benher is promoting a "social gospel" on this forum. If enough people are involved with, "works" at the social level of our community we will rid the world of social "ills"; It took me awhile to understand his position, but this fits in with his world views.

"and the poor will be with you always" Jesus says
 
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