Not By Works

[BillG]

Remember what Decon says, ES is the doctrine of probably only about 10% of the churches. OSAS is probably the doctrine of another 20%, and the other 30% mix grace and faith and works, and the other 40% are all over the place.

Ok I can understand the confusion about the 10% post.

But as for the above post you are going to back it up.

If you cannot then you really need to stop doing this.
If you cannot then you are effectively attributing that has not been said to someone and therefore lying and bearing false witness.

If you can prove it then I will apologise, if you can't then you need to apologise.
Which to be perfectly honest I think you find very difficult.

 

[benhur]

i dont feel like i was lying when i said that

or falsely accusing you

but at this moment you actually seem to be very open and genuine

im sorry ben

im willing to forget everything
drop it
and start fresh

i wont bring up any past comments about you and
please do not try to be passive aggressive or bait me

but how can you say you believe we are saved by grace through faith

then add works as requirements?
scripture clearly tells us not to do this

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

I am willing to forget everything so far also.

I believe that it is by grace that you are saved. That is a true statement. But Paul also says in 20 different scriptures that we have to be furnished with all good works. So if good works has nothing to do with salvation, why even bring up the words 'good works'? If everything is guaranteed, why talk about 'good works' ever in the bible.

If all you have to do is believe and you are guaranteed eternal life, why do anything?

In fact Jesus does not use the verbiage 'by grace are you saved'. His verbiage is more centered around good works. He did not sit around like a buddha and think all day, he was out and about preaching, and healing, and feeding, and comforting, and testifying. His days were full of good works.

Yes, Jesus did say, if you believe in me, you will have eternal life. But he was not kidding around about 'if you believe'. In his parable of the vine, he states an astounding doctrine. He says that "those braches IN ME (which are those who are saved) that produce little fruit (as a result of little or no good works) will be taken away by God, the Father of Jesus.
If SE was a real deal the saved would not have to worry about bringing in the fruit, and would not be worried about being taken away.
So Jesus, in this parable says there is no SE.

So when Jesus says if you believe in me, that means, he is expecting you to do as he did, or as he says, if you love me, keep my commandments. Come follow me. That does not mean to just follow him around and watch him work, that means you do the good works that he did. He was the perfect example of what a good Christian should be engaged in.

 

[mailmandan]

In his parable of the vine, he states an astounding doctrine. He says that "those braches IN ME (which are those who are saved) that produce little fruit (as a result of little or no good works) will be taken away by God, the Father of Jesus.

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13). *NONE*

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. *So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.

*So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). - https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-15.html

Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off. Judas Iscariot is a good example of a self-attached branch that was cut off.

 

[benhur]

ALMOST every one you quote........

Tell me one.

 

[benhur]

Firstly I would say you come across as aggressive.
That I do not appreciate.
Secondly I gave my thoughts.
Thirdly you did not tell me what questions I did not address.

Therefore I can't answer you.

I am not a mind reader.

Personally I feel I answered all your questions.

To me, you did not answer 2. You did not answer 3. Reading your post again, you may have answered 4. Not sure if you answered 5 and not sure if you answered 6.

Sorry if you feel I am aggressive. You do to at times. I will try to hold it down. Thanks.

 

[benhur]

ALL manner of sin against the Son of an shall be forgiven and blasphemy of the Holy Spirit boils down to unbelief into the work of Christ as from GOD...a man that will not believe cannot be forgiven......THINK ABOUT THAT and lose your false dogma.....SEE....no matter how you twit up and deny the truth of eternal security it always comes back to your erroneous view.....wow man....have a piece of cake!

To deny the HS is to deny his witness (that Jesus is the Christ) and you deny his promptings to do the things that Jesus did.

 

[dcontroversal]

To deny the HS is to deny his witness (that Jesus is the Christ) and you deny his promptings to do the things that Jesus did.

AND you don't know what your talking about.....just more lies and deceit.....

 

[benhur]

Pull up my quote above that indicates the percentages and break down.....I never said, implied and or even indicated what you posted above.....You know..SATAN embellished what God said in the garden by ADDING to what was said.......and the implication is obvious....

So what if I add some %'s. I got your percentage right. You said that 90% of Christians disagree with your theology. All I did was take that 90% and broke it down a little more.

Are you comparing me to satan? Is it that obvious that because I want to do good works for the glory and the love of Jesus Christ, I am satan?

 

[TruthTalk]

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13). *NONE*

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. *So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.

*So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). - https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-15.html

Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off. Judas Iscariot is a good example of a self-attached branch that was cut off.

Amen and thank you mailmandan,

 

[benhur]

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13). *NONE*

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. *So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.

*So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). - https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-15.html

Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off. Judas Iscariot is a good example of a self-attached branch that was cut off.

How many people at the thime, prior to Jesus being glorified had received Jesus the Christ in person, not just a baptism of the HS and prompting from him, but Jesus himself teaching them face to face, not small promptings, but mouth to ear, audible words from a God.
All of them.

Jesus said those brances IN ME that produce no fruit will be taken away by God, who is the husbandman. You cannot get around it.
These were believers and saved folk that he was talking to, that he personally converted, with his own mouth and his own words.They were brances on his vine and receiving him directly. Now later he would go and they would then receive the HS to take the place of a live Jesus. But Jesus teaching in the flesh trumps the promptings of the HS every time.

Oh, I see there is a cosmic connection that bears no fruit. Great. and a spiritual and vital connection which bears fruit. Great. How does that change the saying of Jesus that the brances IN HIM that produce no fruit will be taken away by God?

 

[benhur]

AND you don't know what your talking about.....just more lies and deceit.....

I just reiterated what you said, so if I don't know what I am talking about, neither do you.

 

[benhur]

Amen and thank you mailmandan,

Why don't you get some strength and anwer my post at 64568. 2 people have tried to help, so now gird up your loins and tell me what you know. You don't have to wait until decon answers either.

 

[TruthTalk]

i dont feel like i was lying when i said that

or falsely accusing you

but at this moment you actually seem to be very open and genuine

im sorry ben

im willing to forget everything
drop it
and start fresh

i wont bring up any past comments about you and
please do not try to be passive aggressive or bait me

but how can you say you believe we are saved by grace through faith

then add works as requirements?
scripture clearly tells us not to do this

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Hi NoName, I respect your biblical views and your love for our savior. Are you saying in this post that you agree with benhur on his fake gospel or are you just saying, "I'm sorry ben" for maybe some regretful words that were spoken? I'm a little confused how it is you changed you point of view thats all.

God bless!

 

[TruthTalk]

Why don't you get some strength and anwer my post at 64568. 2 people have tried to help, so now gird up your loins and tell me what you know. You don't have to wait until decon answers either.

You are despicable lier and deciever, go blow away with the wind.

 

[dcontroversal]

So what if I add some %'s. I got your percentage right. You said that 90% of Christians disagree with your theology. All I did was take that 90% and broke it down a little more.

Are you comparing me to satan? Is it that obvious that because I want to do good works for the glory and the love of Jesus Christ, I am satan?

You embellished what I said....which makes you false.....wrap your head around that....!

 

[benhur]

You are despicable lier and deciever, go blow away with the wind.

Why not answer me, is it because those branches IN JESUS can be taken away and burned? Does that prove ES is not a true doctrine?
And therefore you are not going to answer?

Because you are exhibiting a lot of hate right now, I feel we should not respond to each others posts for a while. I will let you have the final blow, but I will not respond to you until you have a different mind set towards me. Believe me, I am not cain, and I am not satan because I believe in doing good works for the love and glory of Jesus Christ.

 

[benhur]

You embellished what I said....which makes you false.....wrap your head around that....!

No, I embellished the 90% of the people you know disagree with you. You have said nothing about the make up of the 90%, but I did, so what is that to you. I kept your 90% statement in tact, I did not embellish that. And even if I did, does that make me satan? That is a pretty large step from what type of Christian you think I am to satan. You must be desparate to please your followers.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Hi NoName, I respect your biblical views and your love for our savior. Are you saying in this post that you agree with benhur on his fake gospel or are you just saying, "I'm sorry ben" for maybe some regretful words that were spoken? I'm a little confused how it is you changed you point of view thats all.

God bless!

im saying im sorry if i was rude but i stand by what is true


(lol thanks for checking on me though brother)

 

[TruthTalk]

im saying im sorry if i was rude but i stand by what is true

Cool dude, I kinda thought that was the issue and thanks.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

i mean honestly

i remember what helped me when i used to believe a false gospel of works salvation

was God using many brothers and sisters to break it from me paired with much prayers and laying down what i thought i knew at Gods feet and returning to study

not all of you guys were harsh with me

even if i was rude and accusing

some were harsh

and some were gentle
i needed all of it
(thank you guys)

i guess i just... wanna try to start fresh with ben

im not saying i believe i said anything that wasnt true

or wasnt from a good place of wanting to help by exposing the truth

im just saying sorry if anything i said was out of line

i know im capable of stepping outside the box of talking to someone into the box of talking AT them....