Not By Works

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benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Explain how a person who believes for a while, then no longer believes, is still saved.


12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13


  • who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.



JPT
The usual answer is they were never saved in the first place, or they that went out from us were never part of us. Get ready for that kind of response.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,631
6,320
113
I do not know. I only think that he chose Judas knowing Judas would be the traitor that would bring him to the cross.
yes i believe He chose Judas knowing who and why and what and when about him.
He's God, and He wasn't not-God when He chose Judas.
so that scripture would be fulfilled.


While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that scripture would be fulfilled.
(John 17:12)

the answer to why is partly in those scriptures that were fulfilled by it, probably :)
shall we look for them?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
18,320
5,935
113
53
God does not demand perfection. But he demands fruit.
Explain how a person who believes for a while, then no longer believes, is still saved.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13
  • who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away
JPT
That's already been explained to you numerous times. *Click the link below and see post #1,416.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...other-osas-thread.166480/page-71#post-3622213
 
Oct 31, 2015
1,806
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The usual answer is they were never saved in the first place, or they that went out from us were never part of us. Get ready for that kind of response.

Jesus explained the condition for being saved in the previous verse; Believe


  • lest they should believe and be saved.


12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13


These in the next group did in fact believe, according to Jesus.


  • who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.


These folks believed are were saved... for a while.


If there is more to being saved, than to believe, then please share what that is, with the scriptures to validate your claim.




JPT
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
8,918
2,788
113
. . . Doesn't the words 'keep my commandments' just rub you wrong? Yet there it is in writing. . . .

WOW, you have NO IDEA AT ALL, ABOUT being BORN AGAIN, do you. When we are Born Again, the Holy Spirit, he comes into our hearts, HE births our once dead human spirit into ETERNAL LIFE, which has a mind that is 100% in line with the WILL OF GOD. YES the Carnal or Human Brain gets in the way, especially at first. The More you FEED on the WORD OF GOD, the more you Human Spiritual Mind matures to become the one that is DOMINANT. IT ALWAYS WANTS TO DO WHAT IS GOD'S WILL. But the Carnal Mind is at WAR, with the Mind of the Human Spirit that is Born Again. If you have not experienced the internal war of the two minds, then you certainly have never been born again. YOU JUST DESCRIBED a person who DOES NOT KNOW GOD INTIMATELY, which is how your mind works when you have not been Born Again. Your Human Spirit at natural birth, is Spiritually DEAD, because of the SIN you were born with. It exists, but your human spirit is still spiritually DEAD, in other words it exists to be Carnally Minded. Therefore you cannot tell the difference between your human brain and your human spirit, until you are Born Again. Your human spirit only comes to be Eternally Alive, in tune with GOD's WILL, when the Holy Spirit comes into your HEART.

I LOVE to do what pleases my LORD AND MASTER.

1 John 3:14 (NIV)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers.
Anyone who does not love remains in death.


Your Soul or Mind were alive and Natural Birth. The Greek Word for Soul is "Psychē", hence the Soul and Spirit are NOT THE SAME THING. Psychē is then the Mind, the sum total of the intangible part of the human mind. So Soul and the Body were alive at Natural Birth, BUT NOT THE Human Spirit. It must be BORN AGAIN, John 3:6-7.


Hebrews 4:12 (HCSB)
12 For the word of God is living and effective and sharper than any double-edged sword, penetrating as far as the separation of soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the ideas and thoughts of the heart.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,038
14,661
113
i never said ignore His words

that is just you either trying to bait me

or misunderstanding my words

but i explained them clearly
What is hilariously tragic....He admits he has not been"saved long" then stated that JUDAS killed JESUS until that error was pointed out and he "READ" the bible and seen that error...and YET he will argue his version of salvation like he has a Masters in Bible Languages.........He will ask to have something explained and then reject it, twist it, embellish it or flat deny and refuse it.................cake taker my friend....just one of many cake takers....
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,038
14,661
113
Explain how a person who believes for a while, then no longer believes, is still saved.


12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13


  • who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.



JPT
Better yet explain how Jesus fails when the following is true...

He gives faith as a GIFT and deals it out to all men in measure
HE BEGINS the work of FAITH
He FINISHES the work of FAITH
HE COMPLETES the work of FAITH

SO.....IF one can LOSE faith and by default LOSE salvation then the following MUST BE TRUE

JESUS takes his gift of faith BACK
The WORK OF FAITH JESUS began fails
JESUS does not FINISH the work of faith he began
JESUS does not complete the work of faith HE STARTED

THE end result....JESUS is an inept liar that cannot finish what he started and keep his word.....

THIS is exactly what ALL say when they say ONE can LOSE salvation by LOSING faith.....

MY BIBLE states the following...

IF we BELIEVE NOT (AFTER BELIEF and WRITTEN UNTO THE SAVED) HE abides FAITHFUL because HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF.

What do the following words mean

SAVED to the UTTERMOST?
NEVER LEAVE thee OR FORSAKE THEE?
For the GIFTS and the calling of God are IRREVOCABLE. <--salvation is a gift
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
What is hilariously tragic....He admits he has not been"saved long" then stated that JUDAS killed JESUS until that error was pointed out and he "READ" the bible and seen that error...and YET he will argue his version of salvation like he has a Masters in Bible Languages.........He will ask to have something explained and then reject it, twist it, embellish it or flat deny and refuse it.................cake taker my friend....just one of many cake takers....

it really is a shame bro....
all we can do is keep pointing to Jesus and praying
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,038
14,661
113
he seems to enjoy baiting brothers/sisters

i notice many of the anti-gracers present false arguments no one actually holds and attack the made up arguments

then try to say that means God throws His own children in the lake of fire
Correct.....because they have no real argument.....all the promises and power of Christ must fail, his words must be found false and the very verbiage and verb tense of the bible must be flat rejected or twisted out of context to stand against eternal security....these false religions that teach against it do so for the sake of control....I.E. IF you not Catholic your lost....IF you don't SPEAK in Tongues your lost, If your not immersed your lost, IF you don't keep the Sabbath your lost...if you don't do this or that your lost...blah blah blah.....it is ALL about control and keeping people under the thumb of religious religionists.......makes me want to spew.....
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
53
48
What is hilariously tragic....He admits he has not been"saved long" then stated that JUDAS killed JESUS until that error was pointed out and he "READ" the bible and seen that error...and YET he will argue his version of salvation like he has a Masters in Bible Languages.........He will ask to have something explained and then reject it, twist it, embellish it or flat deny and refuse it.................cake taker my friend....just one of many cake takers....
WHO CURSED JESUS AND WHY WAS HE CURSED?

DID JESUS TEACH HIS APOSTLES TO PREACH TO ALL NATIONS THAT HE WAS CURSED
FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF OUR SINS?

DID HE TEACH THEM TO PREACH THAT HE
WAS FORSAKEN BY GOD?

DOES GOD HAVE AN ETERNAL PLAN OF SALVATION AND WHO IS IT'S AUTHOR?

DOES CHRIST SPEAKS AND DOES EVERYTHING ON HIS OWN?

Matthew 28:18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has
been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of
the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have
commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

John 14:23-24 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love
him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not
obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent
me.

Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined ACCORDING TO THE
PLAN of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

John 12:49-50 For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me
COMMANDED ME WHAT TO SAY and how to say it. I know that HIS COMMAND LEADS TO
ETERNAL LIFE. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

John 14:31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I DO EXACTLY WHAT THE
FATHER HAS COMMANDED ME. “Come now; let us leave.

Hebrews 5:9 and, once made perfect, he became THE SOURCE OF ETERNAL SALVATION
FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM.

Hebrews 13:5-8 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you
have, because God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.” So we say with
confidence, “The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?” Remember
your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and
imitate their faith. JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAME YESTERDAY AND TODAY AND FOREVER.

Isaiah 5:20-24 WOE TO THOSE WHO CALL EVIL GOOD AND GOOD EVIL, who put darkness
for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who
are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight. Woe to those who are heroes at
drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks, who acquit the guilty for a bribe, but deny justice
to the innocent. Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the
flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; FOR THEY HAVE
REJECTED THE LAW OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY AND SPURNED THE WORD OF THE
HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.

Malachi 2:17 You have wearied the Lord with your words. “How have we wearied him?” you
ask. By saying, “ALL WHO DO EVIL ARE GOOD IN THE EYES OF THE LORD, AND HE IS
PLEASED WITH THEM” or “Where is the God of justice?”

Malachi 3:13-18 “You have said harsh things against me,” says the Lord. “Yet you ask, ‘What
have we said against you?’ “You have said, ‘IT IS FUTILE TO SERVE GOD. WHAT DID WE
GAIN BY CARRYING OUT HIS COMMANDMENTS and going about like mourners before the
Lord Almighty? But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers prosper, and even
those who challenge God escape.’” Then those who feared the Lord talked with each other, and
the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning
THOSE WHO FEARED THE LORD AND HONORED HIS NAME. “They will be mine,” says the
Lord Almighty, “in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I WILL SPARE THEM, just
as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him. AND YOU WILL AGAIN SEE THE
DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE RIGHTEOUS AND THE WICKED, BETWEEN THOSE WHO
SERVE GOD AND THOSE WHO DO NOT.

Mark 7:6-13 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

Galatians 6:7-10 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
53
48
WHO CURSED JESUS AND WHY WAS HE CURSED?

DID JESUS TEACH HIS APOSTLES TO PREACH TO ALL NATIONS THAT HE WAS CURSED
FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF OUR SINS?

DID HE TEACH THEM TO PREACH THAT HE
WAS FORSAKEN BY GOD?

DOES GOD HAVE AN ETERNAL PLAN OF SALVATION AND WHO IS IT'S AUTHOR?

DOES CHRIST SPEAKS AND DOES EVERYTHING ON HIS OWN?

Matthew 28:18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has
been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of
the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have
commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

John 14:23-24 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love
him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not
obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent
me.

Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined ACCORDING TO THE
PLAN of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

John 12:49-50 For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me
COMMANDED ME WHAT TO SAY and how to say it. I know that HIS COMMAND LEADS TO
ETERNAL LIFE. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

John 14:31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I DO EXACTLY WHAT THE
FATHER HAS COMMANDED ME. “Come now; let us leave.

Hebrews 5:9 and, once made perfect, he became THE SOURCE OF ETERNAL SALVATION
FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM.

Hebrews 13:5-8 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you
have, because God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.” So we say with
confidence, “The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?” Remember
your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and
imitate their faith. JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAME YESTERDAY AND TODAY AND FOREVER.

Isaiah 5:20-24 WOE TO THOSE WHO CALL EVIL GOOD AND GOOD EVIL, who put darkness
for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who
are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight. Woe to those who are heroes at
drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks, who acquit the guilty for a bribe, but deny justice
to the innocent. Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the
flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; FOR THEY HAVE
REJECTED THE LAW OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY AND SPURNED THE WORD OF THE
HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.

Malachi 2:17 You have wearied the Lord with your words. “How have we wearied him?” you
ask. By saying, “ALL WHO DO EVIL ARE GOOD IN THE EYES OF THE LORD, AND HE IS
PLEASED WITH THEM” or “Where is the God of justice?”

Malachi 3:13-18 “You have said harsh things against me,” says the Lord. “Yet you ask, ‘What
have we said against you?’ “You have said, ‘IT IS FUTILE TO SERVE GOD. WHAT DID WE
GAIN BY CARRYING OUT HIS COMMANDMENTS and going about like mourners before the
Lord Almighty? But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers prosper, and even
those who challenge God escape.’” Then those who feared the Lord talked with each other, and
the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning
THOSE WHO FEARED THE LORD AND HONORED HIS NAME. “They will be mine,” says the
Lord Almighty, “in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I WILL SPARE THEM, just
as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him. AND YOU WILL AGAIN SEE THE
DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE RIGHTEOUS AND THE WICKED, BETWEEN THOSE WHO
SERVE GOD AND THOSE WHO DO NOT.

Mark 7:6-13 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

Galatians 6:7-10 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
1 Peter 4:17-19 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And, “if it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?” So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.
 
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
816
113
If you will recall (maybe you guys won't remember), I used to believe one could be cut off for subsequent unbelief. I walked with God, I had received the Holy Spirit, we shared a meal together often. And I believed one could be cut off for subsequent unbelief.

Then one day, it occurred to me that if I truly believed this, why was I not frightened at all? And I realized I did not believe He would let me fall into unbelief. Why did I trust Him that much? And if I really did, then why was I saying I could be cut off? I think I rather believed it about others but not about myself. So, (big surprise :rolleyes:), it was actually arrogance that caused me to insist on it.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
If you will recall (maybe you guys won't remember), I used to believe one could be cut off for subsequent unbelief. I walked with God, I had received the Holy Spirit, we shared a meal together often. And I believed one could be cut off for subsequent unbelief.

Then one day, it occurred to me that if I truly believed this, why was I not frightened at all? And I realized I did not believe He would let me fall into unbelief. Why did I trust Him that much? And if I really did, then why was I saying I could be cut off? I think I rather believed it about others but not about myself. So, (big surprise :rolleyes:), it was actually arrogance that caused me to insist on it.

God bless you sis

lol

i was a sinless perfectionist


i could name some banned members you probably remember who would rep me and id PM from time to time