Not By Works

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NoNameMcgee

Guest
My conclusions come from the bible, and if they are different from your conclusions, it does not automatically mean that my conclusions are from my own understanding. And since the Holy Spirit is with me, I would not be convinced that my conclusions are wrong. I will admit they are different from yours.

I have never felt you are out to get me, but when you say my conclusions are wrong, and it is because I do not have the Holy Spirit, you realize I can accuse you of the exact same thing.

On this thread there are about 4 people who believe similar to me, and about 4 people that believe similar to you. What can we say about that situation?

for the second time now
you falsely accuse me of suggesting you do not have the Holy spirit

and for the second time now what im saying is because you are wrong

i know the Holy spirit didnt guide you to those conclusions

you absolutely can say the same thing to me

but at least one of us has to be wrong

and i fully believe with a clear heart it is you based on what the bible teaches



i wonder why you avoid my question though?
care to elaborate?
 
J

joefizz

Guest
Remember that you said, "but you were saved the MOMENT you first Believed, BEFORE YOU DID ANY WORKS".
Saved before works is exactly right I relate this to the similarity in the polar express viewed above^^^^ because you see "conviction" in the child's eyes just as we are to be when we accept Jesus,finally "believing" "genuinely" see I like many was "deflective and "unbelieving" but what turned me around to "genuine belief" was "WANTING to believe" I so desperately wanted to believe in Jesus and be saved not because I simply wanted to go to heaven or keep from hell but because at the time I was so "distraught" hurting everyone around me in some form no matter how hard I tried to "do right" I "realized" I "couldn't" and so I turned to Jesus and for once in my life "listened intently" to those trying to teach me how to accept him but "genuine belief" is only "the beginning" of walking with Jesus letting him lead is the next step(did something embarrassing right after being saved and realized the Holy spirit gives you a great boost of emotion and energy but you must discern listening to the "right feeling/voice" otherwise you can still mess up)
 
J

joefizz

Guest
for the second time now
you falsely accuse me of suggesting you do not have the Holy spirit

and for the second time now what im saying is because you are wrong

i know the Holy spirit didnt guide you to those conclusions

you absolutely can say the same thing to me

but at least one of us has to be wrong

and i fully believe with a clear heart it is you based on what the bible teaches



i wonder why you avoid my question though?
care to elaborate?
Yeah no kidding "someone has to be wrong" ,"having the Holy Spirit" doesn't make everyone "always right" whom has the Holy spirit, only when the Holy spirit "speaks through an individual" will an answer be "correct entirely" in order to do this one has to get "self out of the way".
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,277
4,008
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I was wondering if I could ask the audience?

"Those who do not believe are condemned already."

What?
Well what if things chang next week? Tomorrow? In 10 minutes?

Condemned ALREADY?
Welp that sucks. Might as well head out to rape and pillage.

The only logical reasoning my finite mind can come up with concerning this statement is that He knew who that would be from eternity past. A small hint of his eternal knowledge and existence.
I dunno, just a silly question I guess, but it does have me wondering.
A


..




what scripture says He will blot out names from the book of Life??
No not a silly question at all.
Maybe I have not expressed myself well.

Firstly I would say that we have no idea what God is doing in a person's life.
We should never write anyone off, always willing to walk with them and never base that on our thoughts which can easily become biased.
We should always be willing and open to hearing the Holy Spirit guide us and walk in it.

Secondly I believe God knows everything.
Everything from the beginning of time, even before the world was created.
He knows who will come to him and whom won't.
And as I said firstly we don't which is why we should always be willing to walk with others.

For God so loved the world, to me that's everyone.
That whoever believes in him will not perish.

So I believe God knows who will accept him and who will not.

What I don't get or fully understand is "blotting out" (will say a bit more later)

Revelation 13:8
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:27
27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Revelation 17:8
8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


So we have two passages that state 'names not in the book of life'

So for me when the book is opened and a name is not found I ask myself why not.

Blot out

Revelation 3:5
5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.


3:5 The white garments probably symbolize the Lord’s recognition of godly character and faithful service in this life (v. 4; 6:11; 19:7, 8). White is the color of the garments the redeemed will wear in the Lord’s presence (7:13, 14). The Book of Life is the list of the eternally redeemed (20:12, 15). To not blot out is a figure of speech, affirming a positive by negating its opposite. Thus it means “I will include their names.” Blot out likely alludes to Ex. 32:32, 33, where God says He will blot out sinners, but not faithful ones like Moses, from His Book. Christ will make sure the faithful believer’s name and works are not erased, but remembered and honored. (NKJV study notes)

Revelation 22:19
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

The above passages are often used to show that a genuine beliver can lose salvation.
Blotted out.
So one minute your in and the next your out (that's my simple surmise of those against ES)

So if that can happen what does it mean for the following?

Ephesians 4:30
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

John 6:39-40
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 10:28-29
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

Titus 3:4-5
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

I'm not an expert concerning the book of life.
Not really studied thoroughly.
Yes me theological bent will lead my thoughts and conclusions.

I genuinely do not believe that God blots out a belivers name.
I know I will get some comeback on that statement.
If a person's name is not found in the book when it is opened why not?
Was it in the book in the first place?
If not then it was never written in it to start with.

But I do say and have always said and will always guard against.

"We can't judge who is in and who is not"
We cannot base our theological bent or differences on this.
Jesus is the one who will judge, we can't.
We must always endeavour to walk with otgers, love as Jesus loves.

So if I have come across contrary to that, it was not my intention.
I would never condemn anyone, always willing to walk with anyone.

Bill
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,277
4,008
113
And Matthew 5 in the sermon on the mount tells us to let our good works be seen of men so that they will glorify God. So by our faith and our good works, men will know that we are people of God and it will glority God. The hope is that people seeing this outpour of good works will want to be a part of it, and will be converted, taught the gospel and baptized, just like Jesus told his apostles to do.
James 2:18
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Just as James says
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
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dude, you need to stop slandering people

I showed you what the difference was.

the one who entrusts themselves to christ after fully repenting (has true saving faith) is saved the moment God receives their faith

John 3: 16 speaks of saving faith, Not mental agreement.

The one who has mental agreement (belief) but has not yet trusted himself to God for salvation, is not saved.

Do I need to copy this post so in the future when you try to slander me again I can prove you to be a liar?
So you and others on this forum have preached from the beginning that the second one believes, they are saved forever and ever by Jesus into EL.

Then justpassinthrough showed us a scripture in Luke 8 about the parable of the sower. In that parable seeds were thrown on rocky soil, and the analysis of that condition is that the word of God was received and they BELIEVED FOR A WHILE. But then temptations came and persecutions came and these BELIEVERS gave up Christ and went back to their old ways.

So now we have from the scriptures that BELIEVERS can reject Christ and will lose their salvation.

So your response to that was to find an old Hebrew definition of BELIEVE which fit your agenda of ES, and you presented that as if we were going to be impressed with that special nuance in the Hebrew language about one who believes, believes with a full heart and will never deny is the true definition of BELIEVE. Then you add that the English word BELIEVE does not have that connotation. Too bad, since we are reading in English, and are now fooled by the language and our agenda is apparently frought with danger.

So we say that from our English bibles, a believer can lose their belief in Christ, and can lose their salvation. That is backed up with a scripture from 2 Timothy 2:12, which says that if we deny Christ, he will deny us. So again, if a believer eventually denies that Jesus is the Christ, Jesus will deny him before the Father. If a non-believer denies Jesus is the Christ, Jesus will deny him before the Father.

The key word is not BELIEVE (the Hebrew definition or the English definition). The key word is DENY. Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ, will not have EL, and it does not matter if you were never a BELIEVER, or you were once a BELIEVER and then denied.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
So you and others on this forum have preached from the beginning that the second one believes, they are saved forever and ever by Jesus into EL.

Then justpassinthrough showed us a scripture in Luke 8 about the parable of the sower. In that parable seeds were thrown on rocky soil, and the analysis of that condition is that the word of God was received and they BELIEVED FOR A WHILE. But then temptations came and persecutions came and these BELIEVERS gave up Christ and went back to their old ways.

So now we have from the scriptures that BELIEVERS can reject Christ and will lose their salvation.

So your response to that was to find an old Hebrew definition of BELIEVE which fit your agenda of ES, and you presented that as if we were going to be impressed with that special nuance in the Hebrew language about one who believes, believes with a full heart and will never deny is the true definition of BELIEVE. Then you add that the English word BELIEVE does not have that connotation. Too bad, since we are reading in English, and are now fooled by the language and our agenda is apparently frought with danger.

So we say that from our English bibles, a believer can lose their belief in Christ, and can lose their salvation. That is backed up with a scripture from 2 Timothy 2:12, which says that if we deny Christ, he will deny us. So again, if a believer eventually denies that Jesus is the Christ, Jesus will deny him before the Father. If a non-believer denies Jesus is the Christ, Jesus will deny him before the Father.

The key word is not BELIEVE (the Hebrew definition or the English definition). The key word is DENY. Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ, will not have EL, and it does not matter if you were never a BELIEVER, or you were once a BELIEVER and then denied.

if someone believes
has been baptized by the Holy spirit

but not baptized in water

and this someone sins

but still believes

if this someone dies

in the middle of performing a sinful deed

anything from a white lie
to murder

doesnt matter

if they die performing this deed while believing IN Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior
born again
baptized of the Holy spirit but not yet in water


is this person saved in your belief system
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
once again, your a liar. I have never taught that a person who has mere belief (mental agreement) has ever been saved.

Keep it up and I will report you!
You only made that distinction lately.
that can't be true, if it was true, then one could not be blotted out. If one can be blotted out. it could only mean conditional life, not eternal.

People need to learn what "eternal" Means!!
It can't be true because you believe in ES. But all people whose names are written in the book of life, are those that believe and have the ability to have EL. If you are a non-believer why would you be written in the book of EL? You wouldn't.
Read Revelation 13:7-9 and see that those who worship other than Jesus, their names are NOT written in the book of life.

So, if someone is being blotted out of the book of life, it is a believer that has lost their love for Christ, and has denied him. So the way that Jesus denies them is to blot their name out of the book of life.

Again, if you believe in ES this is impossible. But since the bible says differently, ES must be a false doctrine.
 
J

joefizz

Guest
How can you lose something you never had?
Ps double meaning there as well
Wait...
I don't have a sense of humor?
Lord please send 3,000 whoopie cushions,a dvd of jeff foxworthy and some veggie tales silly songs to my door so that I can have a sense of humor!:ROFL::LOL:
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
right?

the devils believe and tremble


are they saved?

no....

belief of Him
mental acceptance of Him

these things are different than belief IN HIM <- instantly met with a new heart that screams He is who He says a quickened spirit

the indwelling Holy Spirit

God workinh in us
God chastening us

these do not produce unbelief

He produces greater faith working all things for good to those what love Him <- new heart <- rooted
I believe in ES, so I have to come up with a different definition of BELIEVE. Now there is the head believe and there is the heart believe.
Good that covers that obviously biblical conflict with ES. Good going you guys.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
no root, because no christ.
OK here is the problem. Luke 8 says that these people believed for a while. But soon they denied Christ because of temptation and persecution and fell away. We say they lost their salvation because they once believed for a while (was that 1 month of 1 year?)

You counter by saying they were head believers and so were never really believers of the heart. We can not determine that from the parable, but that is your twist. We take it straight on, but you have to twist the scripture to fit you ES position. Good going guys.
 
May 20, 2018
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And Matthew 5 in the sermon on the mount tells us to let our good works be seen of men so that they will glorify God. So by our faith and our good works, men will know that we are people of God and it will glority God. The hope is that people seeing this outpour of good works will want to be a part of it, and will be converted, taught the gospel and baptized, just like Jesus told his apostles to do.
So you and others on this forum have preached from the beginning that the second one believes, they are saved forever and ever by Jesus into EL.

Then justpassinthrough showed us a scripture in Luke 8 about the parable of the sower. In that parable seeds were thrown on rocky soil, and the analysis of that condition is that the word of God was received and they BELIEVED FOR A WHILE. But then temptations came and persecutions came and these BELIEVERS gave up Christ and went back to their old ways.

So now we have from the scriptures that BELIEVERS can reject Christ and will lose their salvation.

So your response to that was to find an old Hebrew definition of BELIEVE which fit your agenda of ES, and you presented that as if we were going to be impressed with that special nuance in the Hebrew language about one who believes, believes with a full heart and will never deny is the true definition of BELIEVE. Then you add that the English word BELIEVE does not have that connotation. Too bad, since we are reading in English, and are now fooled by the language and our agenda is apparently frought with danger.

So we say that from our English bibles, a believer can lose their belief in Christ, and can lose their salvation. That is backed up with a scripture from 2 Timothy 2:12, which says that if we deny Christ, he will deny us. So again, if a believer eventually denies that Jesus is the Christ, Jesus will deny him before the Father. If a non-believer denies Jesus is the Christ, Jesus will deny him before the Father.

The key word is not BELIEVE (the Hebrew definition or the English definition). The key word is DENY. Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ, will not have EL, and it does not matter if you were never a BELIEVER, or you were once a BELIEVER and then denied.
I know that if my salvation is contingent on my abilities as a filthy, imperfect, sin ridden piece of dirt, then there is no "Good News" as far as I'm concerned.

"Dear Lord, thank you for bestowing your awesome grace upon my spiritually dead existence and saving my soul from eternal damnation. And though all my thoughts and ways are finite and weak, and I am unable to fathom the spiritdual realm in any possible way, I appreciate you for sounding the starting gun. Now step aside as I show you how perfectly I can live in a spiritual and mental tormenting prison while I press on focusing on my abilities, and looking to you when I may need you because I have faith in both of us. Maybe you could watch closely, and let me show you how it's done. Thank you for this opportunity Lord, for my self righteousness will conquer my doubts and fears. In Jesus' name...Amen"
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,287
4,238
113
Remember that you said, "but you were saved the MOMENT you first Believed, BEFORE YOU DID ANY WORKS".

AND I also said, "Godly LOVE happens ONLY AFTER WE ARE SAVED." That is GOD GIVEN LOVE, that WORKS it's way our In our good works. GOD's LOVE, is the seed that WILL eventually produce a HARVEST of GOOD WORKS. SO we are SAVED, not by WORKS, and afterwards GOD's LOVE in us will work it's way out of us in HOW we Love the LORD, and How we Love our Brethren.

Doesn't it BOTHER you that YOUR theology, creates all kinds of Contradictions in the BIBLE?

AND YOU HAVE NEVER ANSWERED ME, WHAT DENOMINATION ARE YOU FROM?

By not answering truthfully, YOU CREATE ALL KINDS OF MISTRUST IN ALL OF US HERE, therefore, we do not trust ANYTHING YOU SAY.

Is it because YOU KNOW YOU WILL GET BANNED, if you admit what Denomination you are FROM?
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
I believe in ES, so I have to come up with a different definition of BELIEVE. Now there is the head believe and there is the heart believe.
Good that covers that obviously biblical conflict with ES. Good going you guys.
are you being facetious ben:sneaky:
.....
i notice lately youve been going back
and re-responding to much older responses we already had a back and forth over and got no where with


but you have not answered this question yet


if someone believes
has been baptized by the Holy spirit

but not baptized in water

and this someone sins

but still believes

if this someone dies

in the middle of performing a sinful deed

anything from a white lie
to murder

doesnt matter

if they die performing this deed while believing IN Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior
born again
baptized of the Holy spirit but not yet in water


is this person saved in your belief system
 
J

joefizz

Guest
AND I also said, "Godly LOVE happens ONLY AFTER WE ARE SAVED." That is GOD GIVEN LOVE, that WORKS it's way our In our good works. GOD's LOVE, is the seed that WILL eventually produce a HARVEST of GOOD WORKS. SO we are SAVED, not by WORKS, and afterwards GOD's LOVE in us will work it's way out of us in HOW we Love the LORD, and How we Love our Brethren.

Doesn't it BOTHER you that YOUR theology, creates all kinds of Contradictions in the BIBLE?

AND YOU HAVE NEVER ANSWERED ME, WHAT DENOMINATION ARE YOU FROM?

By not answering truthfully, YOU CREATE ALL KINDS OF MISTRUST IN ALL OF US HERE, therefore, we do not trust ANYTHING YOU SAY.

Is it because YOU KNOW YOU WILL GET BANNED, if you admit what Denomination you are FROM?
Who knows he may not have a denomination probably another rogue rebel philosopher determined to be right.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,287
4,238
113
VCO says:


Do you have a bible scripture that says what you personally just said?

If you choose not to walk in the good works that Christ has prepared for you ahead of time, then what?

Go back and read ALL MY POSTS, I have told you the TRUTH, so many times and you PATHETICALLY REJECTED THEM ALL.