Not By Works

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dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
44,321
17,843
113
Those who stand against the truths of the bible teach the following....

a. Saved to the uttermost means not saved at all
b. Sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise means not sealed
c. I will never leave the means he will leave thee
d. Nor forsake the means he will forsake thee
e. Eternal life means conditional and temporary
f. Everlasting life means conditional and temporary
g. In the Father's hand means not in the Father's hand
h. In Christ's hand means not in Christ's hand
i. Nothing shall separate us from the Love of God means something will separate us from the love of God
j. Kept by the power of God means God has no power and we are thrown under the bus
k. I give unto them eternal life means he gives us temporary life
l. Saved by faith means saved by self service and what we do
m. When I see the blood I will pass over you means God will not pass over cause the blood of Christ is ineffectual
n. Where sin abounds grace did much more abound means God's grace is weak and our sin is more powerful
o. Saved does not mean saved
p. Justified by faith/blood means rendered guilty and the blood is ineffectual
q. Sanctified eternally in Christ means NOT sanctified in Christ
r. Christ beginning a work of faith means He did not do it we did it
s. Jesus finishing a work of faith in us means he is weak and cannot finish it because we must finish it for him
t. Jesus completing the work of faith is us means we must complete it because Jesus is weak and ineffectual and cannot complete it
u. ETC

The above is exactly what ALL those who believe salvation can be lost or forfeit believe...regardless of their denial......end of story.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
44,321
17,843
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Yep true colors shining through...
I do not mind heat and banter from those who disagree because I dish it out as much as I get it, but to say I believe and teach one can can call Allah Lord goes beyond banter and heat into character assassination.....not good at all.....
 
J

joefizz

Guest
Take it up with the moderators...I reported your slanderous lie.....which is rare thing for me to do....you owe me a public apology for spewing that lie bout Islam/Allah.......it is one thing to disagree and give each other heat.....it is another ball game all together to spew such a lie and NO MAN can call JESUS LORD except by the Spirit of God.....to say the following is not of God, nor something a believer would do....

You are teaching a Born again Christian can turn away from Christ and confess Allah as Lord, and still be saved.
Yeah really about how many pages of posts in this thread "alone" show you are a "Christian"?
And definitely no ties to islam my question was going to be "what is he smoking?,but then figured that would be a waste.
 

Oncefallen

Idiot in Chief
Staff member
Jan 15, 2011
5,561
1,726
113
Over 3,200 pages and over 65,000 posts of non-stop misrepresenting other user's positions, name calling, general rudeness, and calling into question the salvation of other users (by both sides of the debate). In all of that no one has convinced another that their stance was incorrect regardless of how many hundreds of times the evidence was portrayed.

This thread went toxic within days of it's origin and no matter how many infractions get issued it doesn't get any better.
 

RoboOp

Administrator
Staff member
Aug 4, 2008
1,423
366
83
Back by popular demand. :)

I understand Oncefallen not wanting to deal with this thread anymore so I will try to handle any reports in it until or unless I also give up :)

We would like to ask everyone to please try to be civil and even friendly :)
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
Back by popular demand. :)

I understand Oncefallen not wanting to deal with this thread anymore so I will try to handle any reports in it until or unless I also give up :)

We would like to ask everyone to please try to be civil and even friendly :)

thank you:D
 

longtrekker

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
395
193
43
.
I know there is a lot of turbulence and turmoil on this thread – but that’s part of the magic !

Given the nature of what’s being discussed if the sparks aren’t flying then that’s going to be an even bigger problem.

I for one have learned some excellent stuff here and am glad it’s back.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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Those who stand against the truths of the bible teach the following....

a. Saved to the uttermost means not saved at all
b. Sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise means not sealed
c. I will never leave the means he will leave thee
d. Nor forsake the means he will forsake thee
e. Eternal life means conditional and temporary
f. Everlasting life means conditional and temporary
g. In the Father's hand means not in the Father's hand
h. In Christ's hand means not in Christ's hand
i. Nothing shall separate us from the Love of God means something will separate us from the love of God
j. Kept by the power of God means God has no power and we are thrown under the bus
k. I give unto them eternal life means he gives us temporary life
l. Saved by faith means saved by self service and what we do
m. When I see the blood I will pass over you means God will not pass over cause the blood of Christ is ineffectual
n. Where sin abounds grace did much more abound means God's grace is weak and our sin is more powerful
o. Saved does not mean saved
p. Justified by faith/blood means rendered guilty and the blood is ineffectual
q. Sanctified eternally in Christ means NOT sanctified in Christ
r. Christ beginning a work of faith means He did not do it we did it
s. Jesus finishing a work of faith in us means he is weak and cannot finish it because we must finish it for him
t. Jesus completing the work of faith is us means we must complete it because Jesus is weak and ineffectual and cannot complete it
u. ETC

The above is exactly what ALL those who believe salvation can be lost or forfeit believe...regardless of their denial......end of story.

Ok.

Trying again.

There is no mention of works in my post, as a condition for salvation.


Please don't attack me and accuse me of promoting a doctrine of works for salvation.


No one is regenerated or saved or born again by works.


Believing is the point I am discussing.


12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13


The condition that Jesus gave for being saved is believe.


  • lest they should believe and be saved.

Those in verse 12, had the seed stolen away before they could believe and be saved.



In the next verse, this group is represented of those in tribulation and are being persecuted because they are believers.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

  • who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.


Matthew makes this condition abundantly clear -


20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21


  • but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.


but endures only for a while
who believe for a while



Again it's important to be aware that the reason these in this group are being persecuted is they are believers.



The intent of the persecution, in the context is to get the believers to turn away from Christ, and return to Judaism, a religion that rejects Jesus as Messiah, claiming He is a false prophet, even to this day.


So in order to convert to Judaism, those believers would have to renounce Jesus as a false prophet, or in some cases, be martyred for their faith.


Today in Muslim countries, many are persecuted for the very reason of getting the believers, who in many cases were former Muslim's who became believers, to renounce Christ and return to Islam.


I know this for a fact, as we support families of Arab Christians, who have lost their husband or father as a martyr.


So here is my question:


Can a believer who is being persecuted, [for being a Christian], renounce Christ, and confess Allah as Lord to save their life, and still be saved?

Can a believer who is being persecuted, [for being a Christian], renounce Christ, and confess the antichrist as Lord to save their life, and still be saved?



JPT
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
44,321
17,843
113
Ok.

Trying again.

There is no mention of works in my post, as a condition for salvation.


Please don't attack me and accuse me of promoting a doctrine of works for salvation.


No one is regenerated or saved or born again by works.


Believing is the point I am discussing.


12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13


The condition that Jesus gave for being saved is believe.


  • lest they should believe and be saved.

Those in verse 12, had the seed stolen away before they could believe and be saved.



In the next verse, this group is represented of those in tribulation and are being persecuted because they are believers.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

  • who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.


Matthew makes this condition abundantly clear -


20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21


  • but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.


but endures only for a while
who believe for a while



Again it's important to be aware that the reason these in this group are being persecuted is they are believers.



The intent of the persecution, in the context is to get the believers to turn away from Christ, and return to Judaism, a religion that rejects Jesus as Messiah, claiming He is a false prophet, even to this day.


So in order to convert to Judaism, those believers would have to renounce Jesus as a false prophet, or in some cases, be martyred for their faith.


Today in Muslim countries, many are persecuted for the very reason of getting the believers, who in many cases were former Muslim's who became believers, to renounce Christ and return to Islam.


I know this for a fact, as we support families of Arab Christians, who have lost their husband or father as a martyr.


So here is my question:


Can a believer who is being persecuted, [for being a Christian], renounce Christ, and confess Allah as Lord to save their life, and still be saved?

Can a believer who is being persecuted, [for being a Christian], renounce Christ, and confess the antichrist as Lord to save their life, and still be saved?



JPT
History is replete with men, women and children who gave their lives in the most gruesome ways for the cause of Christ without recanting and or selling out the Lord....Paul, Peter, the apostles, John boiled (could not kill him), some 60 to 80 million Ana-Baptists, Waldensians, Albigensians, Paulicians, Lollards etc...and most recently we have seen 10's of thousands murdered by ISIS for their stance on Christ...and we KNOW that MANY will refuse to take the mark and have their heads whacked off for refusing the beast and his system...

The POINT being....GOD gives grace and strength to the above and even believers like Daniel (lion's den) Mishael, Azariah, Hannaniah (Fiery Furnace) to endure persecution, death and the threat of death without selling out in your two described scenarios.....Peter denied the Lord three times and even used foul language to convince those around him that he did not know JESUS.....but he never lost his salvation in the process....

No man can call the LORD LORD except by the power of God and the direct influence of the Holy Spirit....and I do not believe a genuine saved child of God can lose salvation....Jesus said EVERY SIN against the Son of MAN shall be forgiven unto men....the ONLY unforgivable sin is the equate the work of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit unto the power of the DEVIL which boils down to unbelief....one who will not believe<---They cannot be forgiven...

This is written unto the saved-->where SIN abounds, GRACE abounds the more...God's grace is preemptive when it comes to any and all sin in a believer...THIS does not mean they will go unscathed as GOD chasten every SON he receives....the WHIPPING we may get can include loss of reward, health issues (DAVID-PSALMS), made to wander the wilderness with no rest or peace in this life (Children of Israel) and if God chooses...death....YET the SPIRIT is BORN ETERNALLY of GOD's SPIRIT and of INCORRUPTABLE SEED and remains STEADFAST in Christ....
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
9,642
3,453
113
Back by popular demand. :)

I understand Oncefallen not wanting to deal with this thread anymore so I will try to handle any reports in it until or unless I also give up :)

We would like to ask everyone to please try to be civil and even friendly :)
Thank you, will do.
 
Oct 31, 2015
1,806
473
83
History is replete with men, women and children who gave their lives in the most gruesome ways for the cause of Christ without recanting and or selling out the Lord....Paul, Peter, the apostles, John boiled (could not kill him), some 60 to 80 million Ana-Baptists, Waldensians, Albigensians, Paulicians, Lollards etc...and most recently we have seen 10's of thousands murdered by ISIS for their stance on Christ...and we KNOW that MANY will refuse to take the mark and have their heads whacked off for refusing the beast and his system...

I agree.

Why do you suppose these brave Christians refused to renounce Christ, and be killed?


The question remains:

Can a believer who is being persecuted, [for being a Christian], renounce Christ, and confess Allah as Lord to save their life, and still be saved?

Can a believer who is being persecuted, [for being a Christian], renounce Christ, and confess the antichrist as Lord to save their life, and still be saved?


My answer is quick and simple.

No, they are not saved.



What is your answer?




JPT
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
44,321
17,843
113
I agree.

Why do you suppose these brave Christians refused to renounce Christ, and be killed?


The question remains:

Can a believer who is being persecuted, [for being a Christian], renounce Christ, and confess Allah as Lord to save their life, and still be saved?

Can a believer who is being persecuted, [for being a Christian], renounce Christ, and confess the antichrist as Lord to save their life, and still be saved?


My answer is quick and simple.

No, they are not saved.



What is your answer?




JPT
My answer was given above....
 
Nov 12, 2015
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My answer is that I am not qualified to judge another mans salvation. I leave the judging to God. My mind comes up with all sorts of things and verses that make me refuse to be the judge. And that you would pronounce that judgement makes me cringe for you.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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My answer was given above....


I do not believe a genuine saved child of God can lose salvation...

So your answer to my question is "yes" a believer who is being persecuted, and who renounces Jesus as Lord, and converts to Islam by confessing Allah as Lord, is still saved?


Now when I said before, exactly this same thing, saying that those who promote OSAS, are teaching people that believers can turn away from Christ and become Muslim, while under persecution, and you went ballistic and reported me because you would never teach such a thing, but now wee see I was exactly right.




JPT
 
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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So your answer to my question is "yes" a believer who is being persecuted, and who renounces Jesus as Lord, and converts to Islam by confessing Allah as Lord, is still saved?


Now when I said before, exactly this same thing, saying that those who promote OSAS, are teaching people that believers can turn away from Christ and become Muslim, while under persecution, and you went ballistic and reported me because you would never teach such a thing, but now wee see I was exactly right.




JPT
Why are you laboring SO HARD to try to get another man to pass judgement on another mans eternity? It's bad enough that you would do it, but you want to try to force another man to be as bold and arrogant? I don't think you will get many takers because most men fear God, as they should, and leave the judging of souls to Him.
 
Oct 31, 2015
1,806
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Why are you laboring SO HARD to try to get another man to pass judgement on another mans eternity?

I'm here to share from the scriptures about the discussion topic.


I have been ridiculed and attacked, slandered and lied about, by simply posting a scripture and asking questions.


This is a Bible study, where Christians are supposed to gather and study the Bible.


How is asking a person an honest question, passing judgement on them?


Why are you laboring SO HARD to try to get another man to pass judgement on another mans eternity? It's bad enough that you would do it, but you want to try to force another man to be as bold and arrogant? I don't think you will get many takers because most men fear God, as they should, and leave the judging of souls to Him.

Please point out in my previous post's where I have judged anyone.



JPT
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,259
113
Back by popular demand. :)

I understand Oncefallen not wanting to deal with this thread anymore so I will try to handle any reports in it until or unless I also give up :)

We would like to ask everyone to please try to be civil and even friendly :)
Its a Happy day we all will not forget to be civil and friendly....:)

Thank you RoboOp