Not By Works

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Jewel5712

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Jun 22, 2018
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Yes, I know all about people Allergic to bee stings. Yes ago, my wife who was highly allergic to bee stings, we went up to the Look Out Tower on the Platte River with Grand Kids. It was a very tall tower, on the LAST stairway UP to the top, she Got Stung. I asked her where her bee sting kit was, and it was in the glove box of the car. By the time we got her down to the Car, she could hardly breath, and I gave her the shot, and then a flying trip to the Emergency Room about 20 miles away. Afterwards the Doctor came to talk to me, and told me if I had not given her the shot when I did, she would have been DOA at the Hospital. Nothing to fool around with when you are allergic to bee stings.
:(
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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Shamah, what textual witnesses contain different wording than the ED? Bible Hub lists all the major textual witnesses for James 2:14, and all except the Tischendorf 8th Edition are exactly the same (Tischendorf changes ἡ πίστις to ὁ πίστις). As far as some textual versions not including the ; (question mark) this doesn’t change the fact that James 2:14b is a question.

Just for kicks, Shamah, let’s suppose you just finished your second year of Greek studies and agree that when μὴ is followed by a verb in the indicative mood it is used to ask a rhetorical question which expects the answer to be “no.”

Here’s where understanding Greek can really help. Let’s look at James 2:14.

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him (NASB)?

Because James used μὴ/mē, James’ readers would understand the answer is “no.” Due to the high 1st century illiteracy rate James’ letter was most likely read to the listeners. When they heard μὴ δύναται ἡ πίστις σῶσαι αὐτόν/Can that faith save him? They would have known from the Greek usage of μὴ the answer is “no.”

Now I have a question for you, Shamah. If the implied answer to “Can that faith save him?” is no, then how is, “This faith is not able to save him” different in meaning? Rather than lecturing his hearers by stating, “This faith is not able to save him,” he drew his listeners into the discussion by asking them, “Can that faith save him?” They would have readily answered “NO.”
The Vatican manuscript (at least one of them) omits the last few words of that verse. As far as the ? (;) as you stated the Tischendorf 8th Edition and the Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550 do not contain it, I was simply pointing out textual variants, and Concerning meaning possibly you misunderstood me, I see it clearly as "workless faith is not true fatih" and therefore can not save. By thsi verse and the entire passage in context. SO I am in agreement with you, if I am understanding what you are saying. That by implacation the answer is "no". Concerning Greek grammar I really don;t know a lot about it, I use a number of language resources, consult them all and go from there.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Yes, I know all about people Allergic to bee stings. Yes ago, my wife who was highly allergic to bee stings, we went up to the Look Out Tower on the Platte River with Grand Kids. It was a very tall tower, on the LAST stairway UP to the top, she Got Stung. I asked her where her bee sting kit was, and it was in the glove box of the car. By the time we got her down to the Car, she could hardly breath, and I gave her the shot, and then a flying trip to the Emergency Room about 20 miles away. Afterwards the Doctor came to talk to me, and told me if I had not given her the shot when I did, she would have been DOA at the Hospital. Nothing to fool around with when you are allergic to bee stings.
God put you there at the right time to be able to save your wife. Each time an allergic person gets a bee sting the reaction time shortens. The last time my reaction time was 30min. If there is a next time my reaction time will be about 20min. You are right nothing to fool around with.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,851
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God put you there at the right time to be able to save your wife. Each time an allergic person gets a bee sting the reaction time shortens. The last time my reaction time was 30min. If there is a next time my reaction time will be about 20min. You are right nothing to fool around with.
Yes it was just a few feat from the top of this tower where she got stung, that summer.

1536028487856.jpeg

It was scary getting her down to the Car for the shot, and then the 20 miles to the hospital, I was praying for her all the way.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Shamah, what textual witnesses contain different wording than the ED? Bible Hub lists all the major textual witnesses for James 2:14, and all except the Tischendorf 8th Edition are exactly the same (Tischendorf changes ἡ πίστις to ὁ πίστις). As far as some textual versions not including the ; (question mark) this doesn’t change the fact that James 2:14b is a question.

Just for kicks, Shamah, let’s suppose you just finished your second year of Greek studies and agree that when μὴ is followed by a verb in the indicative mood it is used to ask a rhetorical question which expects the answer to be “no.”

Here’s where understanding Greek can really help. Let’s look at James 2:14.

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him (NASB)?

Because James used μὴ/mē, James’ readers would understand the answer is “no.” Due to the high 1st century illiteracy rate James’ letter was most likely read to the listeners. When they heard μὴ δύναται ἡ πίστις σῶσαι αὐτόν/Can that faith save him? They would have known from the Greek usage of μὴ the answer is “no.”

Now I have a question for you, Shamah. If the implied answer to “Can that faith save him?” is no, then how is, “This faith is not able to save him” different in meaning? Rather than lecturing his hearers by stating, “This faith is not able to save him,” he drew his listeners into the discussion by asking them, “Can that faith save him?” They would have readily answered “NO.”


Now I am not going to get into arguing Greek, because I only know what I have heard from the pulpit.

But what I do know, is it is MIS-USED by a lot of Christians, that want to falsely believe that there is Justification that our works SAVE US. It is clear to me and almost everyone, but the few on this board, that it is Talking about the False Faith, that does NOT have genuine fruit from GOD's LOVE sown into their Hearts the Day they were genuinely SAVED by GOD, which is before any works were even attempted. {Rom. 5:1-10} Salvation NEVER was part of Works. It is Part of LOVE that He had the Holy Spirit pour into our Hearts, Rom. 5:5.

Romans 11:6 (HCSB)
6 Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.

You see, I do not have to know why in the Greek the answer is NO, when HE Tells me in the Language I speak, that IT IS NOT BY WORKS, in so many verses besides this one.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
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Yep and I could say that you are always rejecting truth that contradicts your law keeping drivel....
Now I am not going to get into arguing Greek, because I only know what I have heard from the pulpit.

But what I do know, is it is MIS-USED by a lot of Christians, that want to falsely believe that there is Justification that our works SAVE US. It is clear to me and almost everyone, but the few on this board, that it is Talking about the False Faith, that does NOT have genuine fruit from GOD's LOVE sown into their Hearts the Day they were genuinely SAVED by GOD, which is before any works were even attempted. {Rom. 5:1-10} Salvation NEVER was part of Works. It is Part of LOVE that He had the Holy Spirit pour into our Hearts, Rom. 5:5.

Romans 11:6 (HCSB)
6 Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.

You see, I do not have to know why in the Greek the answer is NO, when HE Tells me in the Language I speak, that IT IS NOT BY WORKS, in so many verses besides this one.
AS THE "BODY" WITHOUT THE "SPIRIT" IS DEAD SO FAITH "WITHOUT" WORKS IS DEAD ALSO.

DON'T YOU KNOW THAT WE ARE THE BODY OF CHRIST OF WHICH HE IS THE HEAD?

A PERSON RECEIVES THE HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH FAITH(gal 3:14) AND BECOMES PART OF CHRIST'S BODY TO PREPARE THEM FOR WORKS OF SERVICE(eph 4:11-13)

BEING "IN" CHRIST, WE WERE MADE A NEW CREATION THAT WILL DO GOOD WORKS AND MEET THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW THROUGH THE SPIRIT IN US.

17 Now the Lord is the spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST WILL DO WHAT HE HAS BEEN DOING BECAUSE WE ARE HIS BODY HERE ON EARTH WHILE HE IS WITH THE FATHER.

12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

A TRUE CHRISTIAN OBEYS GOD'S COMMANDMENTS AND DOES NOT ONLY CLAIM TO HAVE FAITH "ALONE" AND THEY ARE SAVED FOREVER.

1 john 2
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know
him,” but does not do what he commands is a LIAR, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if
anyone obeys his word,love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we
are in him:6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
revelations 21

8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who
practice magic arts, the idolaters and ALL LIARS—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of
burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

LIKE ANANIAS AND SAPPHIRA, WHO AFTER ŔECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH
FAITH, LIED TO THE HOLY SPIRIT.

WILL THEY BE CONSIGNED TO THE FIERY LAKE OF BURNING SULFUR?

DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO YOU?

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things COMETH THE WRATH
OF .GOD ÙPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE

MAN GOT SEPARATED FROM GOD BECAUSE OF THE SIN OF DISOBEDIENCE WHEN
MAN WAS DECEIVED BY THE SERPENT WHO SAID THAT “...Ye shall not surely
die.”(genesis 3:4)

DÈCEIVERS OF THIS AGE SAYS THE SAME THING;

“YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE (PERIßH / BE CONDEMNED). ONCE YOU'RE SAVED, YOU
ARE ALWAYS ßAVED. JUST HAVE FAITH VOID OF WORKS (OF RIGHTEOUSNESS /
ÒBEDIENCE) AND YOU WILL POSSESS ETERNAL LIFE THE MOMENT YOU BELIEVE.

For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in
among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for
immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

OSAS AND FAS ARE FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINES.

"GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED"

"LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR"
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
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9 “And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, HE WILL REJECT YOU FOREVER..
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
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47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who REJECTS me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Romans 11:6 (HCSB)
6 Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.

You see, I do not have to know why in the Greek the answer is NO, when HE Tells me in the Language I speak, that IT IS NOT BY WORKS, in so many verses besides this one.
Thank you VCO great answer. And everybody who has given proof that we are not saved by works; even if James himself were here and told those who work for their salvation they are wrong, they would still not believe.

God bless!
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Christian's are Justified by grace through faith and "Not by Works", lest anyone shall boast, just as our Father Abraham was. Now go home and tell your friends and family that you are "saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, "Not by Works" and you will see many many blessed smiles on their faces.

God bless!

Abraham Justified by Faith: There is "no" boasting before our God.
Romans4:1-8

1) What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2) If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3) What does Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4)
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5) However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6) David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7) Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven
,
whose sins are covered.
8) Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them
.”
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
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Christian's are Justified by grace through faith and "Not by Works", lest anyone shall boast, just as our Father Abraham was. Now go home and tell your friends and family that you are "saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, "Not by Works" and you will see many many blessed smiles on their faces.

God bless!

Abraham Justified by Faith: There is "no" boasting before our God.
Romans4:1-8

1) What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2) If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3) What does Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4)
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5) However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6) David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7) Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven
,
whose sins are covered.
8) Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them
.”
OSAS AND FAS ARE FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINES THAT PROMOTES DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD AND REJECTS AND NULLIFIES GOD'S WORDS AND COMMANDS. (mark 7:6-13, Isaiah 5:20-24)

SO DO NOT LET ANYONE DECEIVE YOU...FOR THE WRATH OF GOD COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT.(Ephesians 5:6)

OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST WHO IS THE SOURCE OF ETERNAL LIFE FOR THOSE WHO OBEY HIM (Hebrews 5:8-9) SAID:

Revelation 3:1-3 To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I HAVE NOT FOUND YOUR DEEDS COMPLETE in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have RECEIVED and HEARD ; OBEY IT and REPENT. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

JESUS HAVE NOT FOUND THEIR DEEDS "COMPLETE" IN THE EYES OF GOD.

THEN HE TOLD THEM TO "OBEY" WHAT THEY RECEIVED AND HEARD AND TO REPENT.

JESUS WAS SPEAKING HERE TO ONE OF THE SEVEN CHURCHES AND WE KNOW THAT THE "CHURCH" IS THE BODY OF CHRIST WHOM HE WILL SAVE. (eph 5:23)

WHY WILL HE SAY THAT THEIR DEEDS ARE NOT COMPLETE IF WORKS ARE NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION AND THAT "FAITH ALONE" SAVES?

WHY WOULD JESUS COMMAND THEM TO OBEY AND REPENT IF IT
IS NO LONGER NECESSARY SINCE THEY ARE SAVED ETERNALLY? (OSAS)

IS JESUS IGNORANT OF THIS DOCTRINE OR IS IT CONTRARY TO HIS TEACHINGS AND COMMANDS AND THEREFORE ARE JUST FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINE THAT NULLIFIES GOD'S WORDS?

JESUS AND HIS FATHER REQUIRE SOME WORKS TO BE COMPLETED AND ASKED FOR OBEDIENCE AND REPENTANCE.

Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous REQUIREMENTS of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Malachi 3:14 “You have said, ‘It is futile to serve God. What did we gain by CARRYING OUT HIS REQUIREMENTS and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty?

GOD REQUIRES OBEDIENCE AND REPENTANCE IN OUR PART OTHERWISE HIS WRATH WILL COME ON THOSE WHO ARE "DISOBEDIENT".(eph 5:6 )

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command.

2 John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

DO NOT BE DECEIVED... GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED...WE REAP WHAT WE SOW...(Galatians 6:7-10)

NOW IF FAITH ALONE SAVES AND ONCE SAVED, YOU ARE ALWAYS SAVED, DOES THIS PASSAGE BELOW CONTRADICT THESE FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINE OR DO YOU REJECT IT OR TWIST IT TO MEAN SOMETHING ELSE THAT WOULD FIT YOUR DOCTRINE?

Matthew 24:9-14 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, THE LOVE OF MOST WILL GROW COLD, but HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED . And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

MANY WHO HAS FAITH WILL TURN AWAY FROM THEIR FAITH.

ARE THEY STILL SAVED AFTER TURNING AWAY FROM THEIR FAITH(ALONE)?

DO YOU MOCK GOD AND REJECT THESE VERSES BELOW?

Galatians 6:7-10 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature WILL REAP DESTRUCTION; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit WILL REAP ETERNAL LIFE. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD..

"LET GOD BE TRUE..." (Romans 3:3-4)
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Thank you VCO great answer. And everybody who has given proof that we are not saved by works; even if James himself were here and told those who work for their salvation they are wrong, they would still not believe.

God bless!
No worries about James being here and saying that....he knew it was grace by faith........he is not teaching that works save, keep saved, help one acquire salvation, embellish salvation and or top off salvation.......no matter how many try and take it there it does not alleviate the fact that we are justified by faith WITHOUT the deeds/works of the law.......!

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"

James 2:14-26, “14 My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him. 15, "And if a brother or sister is naked and in need of daily food, 16, "but one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” but you do not give them the bodily needs, what use is it? 17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead. 18, "But someone might say, “You have belief, and I have works.” Show me your belief without your works, and I shall show you my belief by my works. 19, "You believe that Yah is one. You do well. The demons also believe – and shudder! 20, "But do you wish to know, O empty man, that the belief without the works is dead? 21, "Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the slaughter-place? 22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected? 23, "And the Scripture was filled which says, “Aḇraham believed Yah, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness.” And He called him, “he who loves Yah. 24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone. 25, "In the same way, was not Raḥaḇ the whore also declared right by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so also the belief is dead without the works.”

Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”

Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work of faith/good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18) -- contrary to those who teach we are saved by "these" works (good works/works of obedience etc..) and just not "those" works (works of the law of Moses).

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:17, "faith by itself, if it does not have works is dead" and in James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works. He was "shown to be righteous."

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). *Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

So man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony* (y)
 

Shamah

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Jan 6, 2018
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Matthew 10:37-39, “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me, and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 “And he who does not take up his stake and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 “He who has found his life shall lose it, and he that has lost his life for My sake shall find it.”

John 14:21, “he who possesses My commands and guards them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and manifest Myself to him.”
 

Seohce

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Jul 15, 2016
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No worries about James being here and saying that....he knew it was grace by faith........he is not teaching that works save, keep saved, help one acquire salvation, embellish salvation and or top off salvation.......no matter how many try and take it there it does not alleviate the fact that we are justified by faith WITHOUT the deeds/works of the law.......!

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE
dcon said;
Take 1 second and actually think about and ponder what this thread is about.....serious.....it is
about HOW ONE IS SAVED not WHAT THEY DO AFTER THEY ARE SAVED.....it IS FAITH
ALONE THAT SAVES.....end of story........!

ElAmor said:
To get this over with, i want to ask dcon “HOW IS ONE SAVED"?
the bible tells us about it this way;

Romans 10:8-18 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your
heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: THAT IF YOU CONFESS WITH YOUR
MOUTH, “JESUS IS LORD,” AND BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART THAT GOD RAISED HIM
FROM THE DEAD, YOU WILL BE SAVED. For it is with your heart that you believe and are
justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says,
“Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew
and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone
who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How, then, can they call on the one they
have not believed in? And HOW CAN THEY BELIEVE in the one of whom they have not
heard? And how can they hear WITHOUT SOMEONE PREACHING TO THEM? And how can
they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring
good news!” But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has
believed our message?” Consequently, FAITH COMES FROM HEARING THE MESSAGE, and
the message is heard through the word of Christ. But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course
they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”
It is clear that PREACHING is a WORK necessary for one to BELIEVE and have FAITH and
therefore be SAVED.

Another thing we need to notice is that WITH THE HEART WE BELIEVE AND ARE JUSTIFIED
and WITH OUR MOUTH WE CONFESS AND ARE SAVED.

Believe and confess are two different words with different meaning, the same as justified and
saved.


Romans 10 clearly proves that Salvation is not through Faith ALONE.
BELIEF,, CONFESSION, REPENTANCE, PREACHING, BAPTISM, OBEDIENCE , FAITH,
HOPE, LOVE, WISDOM, HOLINESS, RIGHTEOUSNESS, GOOD WORKS, SERVICE,
WORSHIP ETC. ARE ALL WORKS OF SALVATION THAT THE BODY OF CHRIST POSSESS
AND DO FOR THE HONOR AND GLORY AND PRAISE OF GOD OUR FATHER AND HIS
ONLY SON JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD AND SAVIOR.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The
life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

IF ONE CLAIMS TO HAVE RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH FAITH, (gal 3:14) AND
THEN SAY THAT HIS/HER FAITH ALONE SAVED HIM/HER AND THAT WITHOUT WORKS,
DOESN’T HE/SHE REJECTS AND TRAMPLES UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD AND
INSULTS THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?

Hebrews 10:28-29 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony
of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be
punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the
blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

IF THE WORKS OF GOD WHO IS LOVE (1john 4:8 & 16) THE SON WHO IS TRUTH (john
14:6) AND THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO IS THE POWER (acts 1:8) HAVE NO POWER TO SAVE
AND EVEN OBEDIENCE TO THESE WORKS IS REJECTED BY SAYING THAT FAITH
“ALONE” SAVES VOID OF WORKS, ARE YOU NOT A LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN
YOU?

1 John 2:3-6 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who
says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if
anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are
in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

I CAN CLAIM THAT I HAVE FAITH AND I AM SAVED FOREVER BUT WITHOUT “LOVE”, I AM
NOTHING AND I AM NOT WORTHY OF GOD’S LOVE.

2 John 1:4-11 It has given me great joy to find some of your children WALKING IN THE TRUTH,
just as the Father commanded us. And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but
one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. And this is love: that we
walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his
command is that you walk in love. Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as
coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the
antichrist. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be
rewarded fully. Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ
does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If
anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or
welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

Isaiah 5:20-24 WOE TO THOSE WHO CALL EVIL GOOD AND GOOD EVIL, who put darkness
for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who
are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight. Woe to those who are heroes at
drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks, who acquit the guilty for a bribe, but deny justice
to the innocent. Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the
flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; FOR THEY HAVE
REJECTED THE LAW OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY AND SPURNED THE WORD OF THE
HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.
 
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James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"

James 2:14-26, “14 My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him. 15, "And if a brother or sister is naked and in need of daily food, 16, "but one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” but you do not give them the bodily needs, what use is it? 17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead. 18, "But someone might say, “You have belief, and I have works.” Show me your belief without your works, and I shall show you my belief by my works. 19, "You believe that Yah is one. You do well. The demons also believe – and shudder! 20, "But do you wish to know, O empty man, that the belief without the works is dead? 21, "Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the slaughter-place? 22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected? 23, "And the Scripture was filled which says, “Aḇraham believed Yah, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness.” And He called him, “he who loves Yah. 24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone. 25, "In the same way, was not Raḥaḇ the whore also declared right by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so also the belief is dead without the works.”

Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”

Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”
Like I said....another worker for Hebrew roots Jehovah's Witness pushing a false working for religion....man......as long as you continue to view scripture through the rose colored glasses of your Hebrew roots and or religion you will not grasp the truth that you peddle a working for dogma.....
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Like I said....another worker for Hebrew roots Jehovah's Witness pushing a false working for religion....man......as long as you continue to view scripture through the rose colored glasses of your Hebrew roots and or religion you will not grasp the truth that you peddle a working for dogma.....
As I have said before none can earn their salvation, all have sinned sin worthy of death, all need the mercy given by YHWH, however this does not mean that we should not seek to be obedient, promote obedience and love walking in His ways.

After all He puts His Spirit in us and His Law in our hearts and minds:

Jeremiah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law (Torah/Instructions) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

Hebrews 10:16, "“This is the covenant that I shall make with them after those days, says יהוה, giving My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I shall write them.”

Yet it seems most preach that the only way to be bad in God"s eyes is to do exactly what He says He will do in His people...

If I didnt know the word and only listened to people like you I would think the words big problem is they are trying to do what the Most High wants....

no the problem is they reject Him and His ways...

Mat 24:12, “And because iniquity (*the condition of without law) abound, the love of the many will grow cold.”

*iniquity is:#0458 ἀνομία anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459 Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness
 
Dec 12, 2013
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As I have said before none can earn their salvation, all have sinned sin worthy of death, all need the mercy given by YHWH, however this does not mean that we should not seek to be obedient, promote obedience and love walking in His ways.

After all He puts His Spirit in us and His Law in our hearts and minds:

Jeremiah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law (Torah/Instructions) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

Hebrews 10:16, "“This is the covenant that I shall make with them after those days, says יהוה, giving My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I shall write them.”

Yet it seems most preach that the only way to be bad in God"s eyes is to do exactly what He says He will do in His people...

If I didnt know the word and only listened to people like you I would think the words big problem is they are trying to do what the Most High wants....

no the problem is they reject Him and His ways...

Mat 24:12, “And because iniquity (*the condition of without law) abound, the love of the many will grow cold.”

*iniquity is:#0458 ἀνομία anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459 Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAH he has jokes......man.....you push law, end of story...you push that which you break yourself, that which you do not keep and that which proves guilt and points to Christ.....the bolded above is hilarious.....

and I noticed that you did not deny being a Jehovah's Witness
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
You seem to be so much in oppisition to His Law that you freak out anytime it is promoted...

Exodus 20:6, “But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws.”

John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAH he has jokes......man.....you push law, end of story...you push that which you break yourself, that which you do not keep and that which proves guilt and points to Christ.....the bolded above is hilarious.....

and I noticed that you did not deny being a Jehovah's Witness
First about the Jehovah witness... Yeah right, I have stated multiple times I am not and will NEVER join any kind of man made instution... You are always look for reasons to accuse, little nitpicker. If you look what I posted yesterday I said the JW/WS were made by a freemason... anyway.

Yes I do suppoert the Law of the Creator of the heavens and earth, proudly.

Luke 16:16-17, "The Law and the Prophets were until John, since that time the Kingdom of YHWH is preached, and every man is pressed to enter it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Jeremiah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law (Torah/Instructions) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

Hebrews 10:16, "“This is the covenant that I shall make with them after those days, says יהוה, giving My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I shall write them.”

Isaiah 51:7, “Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, a people in whose heart is My Torah (Instructions/Law): do not fear the reproach of men, nor be afraid of their reviling.”

Isaiah 8:20, "To the Law and to the Testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the Commands of יהוה and possessing the Witness of יהושע Messiah."

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”

As the Law of YHWH is His standard of love:

1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."

Mat 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Mat 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

"iniquity" is: #0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459 Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)1) the condition of without law 1a) because ignorant of it1b) because of violating it, 2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Mat 7:12-14, "Therefore, all things you want men to do to you, do the same to them, for this is the (intent of the) Law and the Prophets. Enter in through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who go that way. Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way which leads to life, and few there are who find it."