Not By Works

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calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
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Anaheim, Cali.
Hebrews 9:27-28 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but TO BRING SALVATION to those who are WAITING for him.

Romans 8:24-25 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But IF WE HOPE FOR WHAT WE DO NOT HAVE YET we wait for it patiently.

2 Corinthians 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For WHAT IS SEEN IS TEMPORARY, but WHAT IS UNSEEN IS ETERNAL.

THERE ARE SOME ON THIS FORUM WHO CLAIM TO HAVE ALREADY POSSESSED ETERNAL SALVATION. DO THEY NO LONGER WAIT FOR THE LORD TO BRING THEM SALVATION SINCE THEY ALREADY POSSESS IT? ARE THEY NOT GOING TO FACE JUDGMENT ANYMORE?

Philippians 3:12-16 NOT that I have already OBTAINED all this, or have ALREADY BEEN MADE PERFECT, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward THE GOAL to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. All of us who are MATURE should take such a view of things. And if on some point YOU THINK DIFFERENTLY, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have ALREADY ATTAINED.

1 Peter 1:9 for you are receiving THE GOAL OF YOUR FAITH, the SALVATION of your souls.

SALVATION IS THE GOAL OF THOSE WHO ARE WAITING FOR HIM, THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST OF WHICH HE IS THE SAVIOR.

OSAS IS A FALSE MANMADE DOCTRINE THAT NULLIFIES THE WORD OF GOD.

Mark 7:6-13 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “YOU HAVE A FINE WAY OF SETTING ASIDE THE COMMANDS OF GOD in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then YOU NO LONGER LET HIM DO ANYTHING for his father or mother. THUS YOU NULLIFY THE WORD OF GOD by your tradition that you have handed down. AND YOU DO MANY THINGS LIKE THAT.”

JESUS SAID;

“If you love me, you will obey what I command.” john 14:15

…” If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”matthew 19:17

“ Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.” john 14:21-24

THIS FALSE MANMADE DOCTRINE TEACHES THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD IS JUST A WORK THAT MAN CAN DO BUT HAVE NO PART, NEITHER ESSENTIAL NOR NECESSARY FOR SALVATION WHICH CONTRADICTS THE FF:

Hebrews 5:7-9 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of ETERNAL SALVATION FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM.

A QUOTE FROM ElAmor’s POST

2 John 1:4-11 It has given me great joy to find some of your children WALKING IN THE TRUTH, just as the Father COMMANDED US. And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had FROM THE BEGINNING. I ask that we love one another. And this is love: that we WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you WALK IN LOVE. Many DECEIVERS, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as COMING IN THE FLESH, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the DECEIVER and the ANTICHRIST. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who RUNS AHEAD and DOES NOT CONTINUE in the TEACHING OF CHRIST does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him SHARES IN HIS WICKED WORK.

Who are those RUNNING AHEAD and DOES NOT CONTINUE IN THE TEACHING OF CHRIST?

They are those who CLAIM SALVATION is by Faith ALONE and ONCE SAVED they are ALWAYS SAVED therefore rejecting God’s Laws and commands which are in fact God’s own words. says that even obedience to God cannot save anyone because they are works and Faith ALONE saves.

Who then is the deceiver and the ANTICHRIST?

They are those who do not continue in the teaching about WALKING IN LOVE which is WALKING IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. Who do not acknowledge Jesus as coming in the flesh by the mere fact that they reject the LAW that prophesied about Jesus as coming in the flesh.

1 John 2:1-6 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. THE MAN WHO SAYS, “I KNOW HIM,” BUT DOES NOT DO WHAT HE COMMANDS IS A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him MUST WALK AS JESUS DID.””””””””

WE ARE TO WORK OUT OUR OWN SALVATION NOT AS INDIVIDUALS WORKING FOR HIS OWN SALVATION BUT AS ONE BODY IN CHRIST(eph 4:1-16) WORKING AS GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANTS OF GOD(mat 25:14-30) WHO ARE LIVING ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT AND NOT ACCORDING TO THE SINFUL NATURE.(rom 8:1-17) WE HONOR AND GLORIFY GOD BY THESE WORKS OF LOVE, FAITH AND OBEDIENCE THAT BEARS GOOD FRUITS THAT WILL LAST..(john 15:6-17)

Luke 3:9 the ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

1 Peter 1:3-7 Praise to God for a living hope Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a LIVING HOPE through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the SALVATION THAT IS READY TO BE REVEALED IN THE LAST TIME. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be PROVED GENUINE and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

2 Peter 1:5-11 For this very reason, make every effort to ADD TO YOUR FAITH goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being INEFFECTIVE and UNPRODUCTIVE in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and BLIND, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his PAST SINS. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Revelation 3:1-3 To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but YOU ARE DEAD. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; OBEY IT AND REPENT. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Galatians 6:7-8 DO NOT BE DECEIVED, GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

John 7:17-18 If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from

God or whether I speak on my own. He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

James 4:17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.

“DEAD FAITH CANNOT SAVE” (james 2:14-26)

“LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR” rom 3:4
Did You type all that in under 5 min? WOW!
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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More like his reliance on some creed written by ex Catholics in 390 A.D. over the bible....he clearly believes it tells him what he must believe in order to be a Christian......he peddles it like a coconut water salesman on the beach in Port Douglas AU......for a few dollars!
As I told you before
Refute it biblically. Your asinine comments about me don't refute what the Apostles Creed doctrinal statement stays. Start refuting or shut up about it. Your assertion about the Catholic Church is ignoring history. The Catholic Church started much later. The catholic church was from the apostles. Do you understand the difference between the two? Obviously not. You are Bible only and ignore Christian history. You put on your blinders too often and pontificate wrong facts.
.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,463
113
Anaheim, Cali.
I was going by what she said. It was way off base.
bZZZ, NOT REALLY, The Calvinistic point of view isn't held by by most 20 & 21st century Christians that don't cling to the King James, 16 & 17th century point of view regarding scripture. We are better educated and realize that the translations are flawed and trying to bully you're point of view won't work any better than the hard rock, Brick & Bible tactics of the 19th Century.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,969
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I got slated on any website for posting the above verses.
Someone who was a Christian was asked to be the best man of a friend and wanted to know whether he should be the best man.
It was a same sex marriage.
Someone replied and said no as homosexuality is not acceptable.

So I posted the above verses to say that it is because the law of the land says it is.
Boy did he go at me. Accused me of promoting same sex marriage based on those verse and if I was a Christian then why would I promote it.


After a few posts between us I had to point out it was acceptable because the law says it is.

I also had to point out in a previous post that even though the law says it's acceptable before God it is not and I for one do not condone it but we can express our opinions.

He just saw those verses and rejected every other post.

The truth is given such issues as above, along with abortion have/will become acceptable under the law of the land.

Ireland recently passed a law accepting abortion, India recently has accepted homosexuality.

The difference is that in Roman times people did not have a vote.
Today we do.


Maybe we as belivers will come to point where we cannot vote because all government are promoting the same thing.

What I find interesting is the verses you quoted 5-7

It's talking about taxes.
What's your thoughts on this as it follows on from 1-4.


Does it relate "Give unto Ceaser?



Yes, the World is "Going to Hell in a Hand Basket", as the expression goes. It gets More Evil every day. However, we as Christians, are to pay our Taxes, Give Honor where Honor is do, VOTE for candidates that are the Most Likely respect GOD's Ways, Respect Authority including Policemen, ETC. WHY, is on the tip of tongue, of someone reading this?

1 Peter 2:11-17 (NKJV)
11 Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul,
12 having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation.
13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.
17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

As well as:

Romans 13:1-10 (HCSB)
1 Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God.
2 So then, the one who resists the authority is opposing God’s command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have its approval.
4 For government is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, because it does not carry the sword for no reason. For government is God’s servant, an avenger that brings wrath on the one who does wrong.
5 Therefore, you must submit, not only because of wrath, but also because of your conscience.
6 And for this reason you pay taxes, since the ⌊authorities⌋ are God’s public servants, continually attending to these tasks.
7 Pay your obligations to everyone: taxes to those you owe taxes, tolls to those you owe tolls, respect to those you owe respect, and honor to those you owe honor.
8 Do not owe anyone anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
9 The commandments: Do not commit adultery; do not murder; do not steal; do not covet; and whatever other commandment—all are summed up by this: Love your neighbor as yourself.
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor. Love, therefore, is the fulfillment of the law.


Now I know, someone wanting an excuse NOT TO OBEY GOD, will say, "That cannot be true, because look at Adolf Hitler." You had better make SURE they are like Adolf Hitler, before you advocate it is GOD's will you NOT submit to that Authority. One example, that comes to mind, is MANDATORY abortions in Red China after the couple has one child.


1 Kings 22:51-53 (HCSB)
51 Ahaziah son of Ahab became king over Israel in Samaria in the seventeenth year of Judah’s King Jehoshaphat and reigned over Israel two years.
52 He did what was evil in the LORD’s sight. He walked in the way of his father, in the way of his mother, and in the way of Jeroboam son of Nebat, who had caused Israel to sin.
53 He served Baal and worshiped him. He provoked the LORD God of Israel just as his father had done.


God has a way to deal with EVIL RULERS. Just like I believe GOD called his faithful Armies to deal with Adolf Hitler.
Now the question is, with decades of Abortions, Murders, etc. on the rise, IS GOD STILL ON OUR SIDE ? ? ?
There is a verse somewhere in the Old Testament that talks about when a Nation becomes filled with unrequited (unpaid for) blood, GOD will Deal with them. If someone can find it, I would appreciate it.

Now you asked a question about Homosexuality. Before I even go there, you need to know, GOD CONSIDERS ALL SIN EQUALLY OFFENSIVE TO HIM. I mean ALL SIN, including going a little bit over the speed limit. How do I know that?


James 2:10 (CSBBible)
10 For whoever keeps the entire law, and yet stumbles at one point, is guilty of breaking it all.


Now God CLEARLY says it is a Sin, that CAN BE REPENTED OF:


1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (ESV)
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. [.That means they repented.]


But isn't it just okay, if I can condone it?

YOU TELL ME, after reading these verses:


Romans 1:24-32 (ESV)
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. {.I think that could be a reference to AIDS.}
28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
32 Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.


God says ONLY the wedding Bed is Undefiled, Heb. 13:4.
And the only Marriage, HE recognizes, is between one man and one woman, Gen. 2:24, Mark 10:7, Eph. 5:31.
You see, GOD Hates all SIN, yet He Loved the sinner so much the SON died for them.

However HE still wants us to REPENT:


Acts 17:30 (HCSB)
30 “Therefore, having overlooked the times of ignorance, God now commands all people everywhere to repent,


I hope that the Scriptures that I used, explains GOD's position to you.

Here is One Scenario that you did not ask about, but I thought I would share Biblical Insight with you:


1 Corinthians 7:36 (NRSV)
36 If anyone thinks that he is not behaving properly toward his fiancée,
if his passions are strong, and so it has to be, let him marry as he wishes;
it is no sin. Let them marry.


1536793546580.jpeg 1536793587395.jpeg

 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,463
113
Anaheim, Cali.
As I told you before
Refute it biblically. Your asinine comments about me don't refute what the Apostles Creed doctrinal statement stays. Start refuting or shut up about it. Your assertion about the Catholic Church is ignoring history. The Catholic Church started much later. The catholic church was from the apostles. Do you understand the difference between the two? Obviously not. You are Bible only and ignore Christian history. You put on your blinders too often and pontificate wrong facts.
.
Simon-Peter was long dead and buried before before the council of Nicaea decided what to keep or dispose of, that led to the Canon we now study from. What part of the apostles creed did she refute that started these judgmental accusations Endo?
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,463
113
Anaheim, Cali.
I was going by what she said. It was way off base.
When I memorized the creed it included "I believe in the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Well I no longer believe in the Catholic Church or that its Holy at all! Does that make me a baby christian or wolf in sheeps clothing too? The Word says 'Call no man a fool (one who does not know God) lest ye risk Hells fire. @Endoscopy , would you dare call anyone a fool?
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
399
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More like his reliance on some creed written by ex Catholics in 390 A.D. over the bible....he clearly believes it tells him what he must believe in order to be a Christian......he peddles it like a coconut water salesman on the beach in Port Douglas AU......for a few dollars!
Here it is. Start refuting it. What you blindly ignore is Bibles were hand copied thus were rare and very expensive until the printing press was invented. Thus the creeds were a method of remembering the essentials of the faith. They would also memorize many verses. So tell me oh great seer how should they have spread the word back then!! Like I said you totally ignore the history.

The Apostles' Creed
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He arose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Universal Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting. Amen.

This is the version I repeated in the Reformed Church I attended for a while. Moved and went to another Reformed theology church. I am Reformed to the bone. Bet that went right over your head.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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As I told you before
Refute it biblically. Your asinine comments about me don't refute what the Apostles Creed doctrinal statement stays. Start refuting or shut up about it. Your assertion about the Catholic Church is ignoring history. The Catholic Church started much later. The catholic church was from the apostles. Do you understand the difference between the two? Obviously not. You are Bible only and ignore Christian history. You put on your blinders too often and pontificate wrong facts.
.
Not hardly pal.....and there is a plethora of errors in your post......sorry your church history is taintend by your religion...try an unbias study of church history to get the facts!!
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
399
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Simon-Peter was long dead and buried before before the council of Nicaea decided what to keep or dispose of, that led to the Canon we now study from. What part of the apostles creed did she refute that started these judgmental accusations Endo?
Dcon for starters is a man. He ridiculed my usage and definition of the Apostles Creed. Didn't you read about his reference to my usage of it. Go back and read it.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Here it is. Start refuting it. What you blindly ignore is Bibles were hand copied thus were rare and very expensive until the printing press was invented. Thus the creeds were a method of remembering the essentials of the faith. They would also memorize many verses. So tell me oh great seer how should they have spread the word back then!! Like I said you totally ignore the history.

The Apostles' Creed
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He arose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Universal Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting. Amen.

This is the version I repeated in the Reformed Church I attended for a while. Moved and went to another Reformed theology church. I am Reformed to the bone. Bet that went right over your head.
No creed written by men qualfies or disqualifies one as a Christian....the bible does, nor does your religion which has rejoined your mother in the last few years..... shall we post the facts.....!!
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,463
113
Anaheim, Cali.
Here it is. Start refuting it. What you blindly ignore is Bibles were hand copied thus were rare and very expensive until the printing press was invented. Thus the creeds were a method of remembering the essentials of the faith. They would also memorize many verses. So tell me oh great seer how should they have spread the word back then!! Like I said you totally ignore the history.

The Apostles' Creed
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He arose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Universal Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting. Amen.

This is the version I repeated in the Reformed Church I attended for a while. Moved and went to another Reformed theology church. I am Reformed to the bone. Bet that went right over your head.
So get back to the question I asked, what did she refute?
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
399
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Not hardly pal.....and there is a plethora of errors in your post......sorry your church history is taintend by your religion...try an unbias study of church history to get the facts!!
Try again. I used Google to ascertain the facts of its creation starting in the 200s with the first and second Roman Creeds they upgraded to the Apostles Creed from the second Roman Creed. Google it!!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Just a cursory reading of the "Creed" reveals at least 2 Catholic errors.....no wonder he misses the mark so much...thank God the bible is my rule of faith and practice and not some ignorant Creed written by men.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Try again. I used Google to ascertain the facts of its creation starting in the 200s with the first and second Roman Creeds they upgraded to the Apostles Creed from the second Roman Creed. Google it!!
ooooooooo Google.....that settles it....for sure 100% doctrinal truth now that GOOGLE has been consulted ....In the beginning GOOGLE created the heavens and the earth ..........puke!!!