Not By Works

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Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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OK and He said:

Revelation 2:20, "But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols."

SO to me, that is the way I see it, there is no doubt; it is not permissable.
Was he maybe showing the difference that jesus death made? According to OT law..couldnt eat certain foods etc n after Jesus..it was acceptable because we arent bound by the OT law anymore?
conflating different things is not sound doctrine.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
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Was Jesus cirumcised?
I guess he was. A sign of the covenant in the OT.

Why did he not condemn those in revalations for not being circumcised?

You had the snip?

Very interesting of the above. You highlight food sacrificed to idols but not sexually imorrality.

Whereas in my post concerning revelations I bolded immorality and food sacrificed to idols.
The discussion started with "meat sacrificed to idols"

........

I said numorous times both are wrong, done seperate or done in the same ritual...
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,269
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OK and He said:

Revelation 2:20, "But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols."

SO to me, that is the way I see it, there is no doubt; it is not permissable.
Ok...gotta look up those verses to get the whole concept cause the only jezabel i know tgat fits that description was OT..brb..
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,124
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59
Because the bold sacrifice of the son of God is just too easy for some to accept. They want it to be more difficult to ease their conscience and make them feel they've earned it some how. They don't understand grace no matter how many times they've sang 'Amazing Grace' and still don't understand a fathers love can be greater than his anger.
Thank you brother , you have answered my query...xox...
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,463
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Anaheim, Cali.
OK and He said:

Revelation 2:20, "But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols."

SO to me, that is the way I see it, there is no doubt; it is not permissable.
Didn't Paul call Peter a Judaizer when Peter insisted that converts become circumcised? Once one becomes saved and circumcised of the heart I would think people would want to refrain from pagan rituals and frivolity.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
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Ok...gotta look up those verses to get the whole concept cause the only jezabel i know tgat fits that description was OT..brb..
OK, but I want to say one thing, both of those verses in Revelation written to existing "churches" of that day using Ballam and Jezebel as examples and Acts 15 should IMO be considered:

Acts 15 was a decision made by the disciples of Yahshua led by the Spirit of YHWH as instructions to "those coming to Christ"

Acts 15:28-29, “For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

Revelation is the final book written and direct revelation from Yahshua, as this is Him literally speaking:

Revelation 2:14, "But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality."

Revelation 2:20, "But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols."

Revelation 9:20-21, “And the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship the demons, and idols of gold, and of silver, and of brass, and of stone, and of wood, which are neither able to see, nor to hear, nor to walk, and they did not repent of their murders, nor of their drug sorceries, nor of their whoring, nor of their thefts.”
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,856
3,793
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You really thought I meant at the exact same second? Really? Either one done alone is wrong, both done in the same ritual is also wrong.



Peter says he was went to the gentiles:

Acts 15:6-7, “So the apostles and the elders met to consider this statement. After a lengthy debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God chose me to be the one among you through whom the Gentiles would hear the message of the gospel and believe."

What does bacon or shellfish have to do with meat sacrificed to idols? You are playing a shell game here. They are 2 different things...

What does "Are you saved by grace through faith?" have to do with meat sacrificed to idols? You are playing a shell game here. They are 2 different things...
With regards to bacon and shellfish.
Under the OT you cannot eat either.
It's unclean.

So given your verses posted above.

What is the gospel and believe?
Is the gospel to believe or not eat food sacrificed to idols?

I love a bacon sandwich, I love shellfish.
All considered unclean in the OT and should not be eaten along with foods sacrificed to idols.

We are saved by grace through faith and not by not eating food sacrificed to idols.

You quote Peter who sent Paul with this directive.
Paul addressed the issue in 1 Cor 8

Do you reject this?
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Didn't Paul call Peter a Judaizer when Peter insisted that converts become circumcised? Once one becomes saved and circumcised of the heart I would think people would want to refrain from pagan rituals and frivolity.
Is that what Peter said? Or was it about eating certian food that no exact details were given in the Scriptures? Many scholars the exact debate in this matter was that the gentiels were eating meat sacrificed to idols and when Peter was informed he quit eating Who was the "circumcision" spoken of in Acts 15, was it James and the Disciples? Did you hear Peters side of the story? Why did Paul have Timothy circumcised?

Acts 16:1-3, “1 Paul came also to Derbe and to Lystra. And a disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek, 2 and he was well spoken of by the brethren who were in Lystra and Iconium. 3 Paul wanted this man to go with him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those parts, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.”

The answer to why would he have Timothy circumcised could be; “because of the Jews who were in the those parts,” however, it seems hypocritical especially given other texts like Galatians 5, where he is harshly admonishing the Galatians who were even thinking about getting circumcised, did Paul make Timothy fallen from grace so Paul could please men?;

Galatians 5:2, Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.”

So many questions surrounding this...
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,269
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conflating different things is not sound doctrine.
Ok..so that WHOLE CHAPTER is addressing different churches..encouraging amd advising each..basically telling them to get thier "house in order"

And no sex and eating werent at the same time...

And its not THAT church that is singled out..this was the 4th church in that chapter thats addressed!

To the Church in Thyatira
18 “To the angel of the church in Thyatirawrite:

These are the words of the Son of God,whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze. 19 I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first.
20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21 I have given her timeto repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.
24 Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan’s so-called deep secrets, ‘I will not impose any other burden on you, 25 except to hold on to what you have until I come.’
26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’[b]—just as I have received authority from my Father. 28 I will also give that one the morning star.29 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

And it doesnt sound like the people in that church were continuing to do tgat but they "tolerated her"...
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,269
113
With regards to bacon and shellfish.
Under the OT you cannot eat either.
It's unclean.

So given your verses posted above.

What is the gospel and believe?
Is the gospel to believe or not eat food sacrificed to idols?

I love a bacon sandwich, I love shellfish.
All considered unclean in the OT and should not be eaten along with foods sacrificed to idols.

We are saved by grace through faith and not by not eating food sacrificed to idols.

You quote Peter who sent Paul with this directive.
Paul addressed the issue in 1 Cor 8

Do you reject this?
Lol..bacon..shellfish..youre makimg me hungry..lol
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
With regards to bacon and shellfish.
Under the OT you cannot eat either.
It's unclean.

So given your verses posted above.

What is the gospel and believe?
Is the gospel to believe or not eat food sacrificed to idols?

I love a bacon sandwich, I love shellfish.
All considered unclean in the OT and should not be eaten along with foods sacrificed to idols.

We are saved by grace through faith and not by not eating food sacrificed to idols.

You quote Peter who sent Paul with this directive.
Paul addressed the issue in 1 Cor 8

Do you reject this?
Is the gospel "do not kill"? You are setting up fake debate points...

DO you believe 1 Cor 8 gives you right to eat meat sacrificed to idols?

I do not. If you believe it does than how do you reconcile the Messiah;s words in Revelation? Do you reject His words? And why did the Disciples say not to eat in Acts 15, a decision made to gentile converts...

I believe Yahshua made it clear it is wrong, and the decision at Acts 15 made by James and the Disciples made it clear it is wrong...

Acts 15:28-29, “For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

Revelation 2:14, "But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality."

Revelation 2:20, "But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols."
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,856
3,793
113
The discussion started with "meat sacrificed to idols"

........

I said numorous times both are wrong, done seperate or done in the same ritual...
Yep the discussion you bought up.
Not me.
I was responding with my thoughts, but you thought fit to go at me rather than discuss my response.

You gave a one line response assuming that I believed this rather than give your thoughts to my response.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Ok..so that WHOLE CHAPTER is addressing different churches..encouraging amd advising each..basically telling them to get thier "house in order"

And no sex and eating werent at the same time...

And its not THAT church that is singled out..this was the 4th church in that chapter thats addressed!

To the Church in Thyatira
18 “To the angel of the church in Thyatirawrite:

These are the words of the Son of God,whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze. 19 I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first.
20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21 I have given her timeto repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.
24 Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan’s so-called deep secrets, ‘I will not impose any other burden on you, 25 except to hold on to what you have until I come.’
26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’[b]—just as I have received authority from my Father. 28 I will also give that one the morning star.29 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

And it doesnt sound like the people in that church were continuing to do tgat but they "tolerated her"...
I would say I have to agree with the points you make.
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,269
113
OK, but I want to say one thing, both of those verses in Revelation written to existing "churches" of that day using Ballam and Jezebel as examples and Acts 15 should IMO be considered:

Acts 15 was a decision made by the disciples of Yahshua led by the Spirit of YHWH as instructions to "those coming to Christ"

Acts 15:28-29, “For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

Revelation is the final book written and direct revelation from Yahshua, as this is Him literally speaking:

Revelation 2:14, "But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality."

Revelation 2:20, "But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols."

Revelation 9:20-21, “And the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship the demons, and idols of gold, and of silver, and of brass, and of stone, and of wood, which are neither able to see, nor to hear, nor to walk, and they did not repent of their murders, nor of their drug sorceries, nor of their whoring, nor of their thefts.”
I know "blood" in general in the OT was considered unclean...not only with food etc but also a womans momthly cycle etc
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,590
2,616
113
What does "Are you saved by grace through faith?" have to do with meat sacrificed to idols? You are playing a shell game here. They are 2 different things...
I have read some of your posts here, and have a few questions:

-Do you believe we must keep the Torah?
-If so, which parts of the Torah apply? Since we know the abrahamic / mosaic circumcision is now abolished according to Paul who says uncircumcision or circumcision is nothing but keeping the commandments of God. (I've always thought it strange since circumcision IS a commandment, what does Paul mean there?)
-Do you believe in the deity of Jesus?
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Yep the discussion you bought up.
Not me.
I was responding with my thoughts, but you thought fit to go at me rather than discuss my response.

You gave a one line response assuming that I believed this rather than give your thoughts to my response.
I don't know what to say to that, I posted verses that support my view, written to new converts and from the final book written and final message Messiah gave mankind... I stated my view. I responded to what you said...
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,269
113
I would say I have to agree with the points you make.
Basically jezabel was leading some astray (false teacher/preacher aka our society) and didnt heed to repentence or correction n should be thrown out of the church..
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,856
3,793
113
Is the gospel "do not kill"? You are setting up fake debate points...

DO you believe 1 Cor 8 gives you right to eat meat sacrificed to idols?

I do not. If you believe it does than how do you reconcile the Messiah;s words in Revelation? Do you reject His words? And why did the Disciples say not to eat in Acts 15, a decision made to gentile converts...

I believe Yahshua made it clear it is wrong, and the decision at Acts 15 made by James and the Disciples made it clear it is wrong...

Acts 15:28-29, “For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

Revelation 2:14, "But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality."

Revelation 2:20, "But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols."
Setting up fake debate points.

I have never been fake, never set up fake debates.
Thanks for the accusation of being fake.
It's done my heart good.

I'm discussing many Bible verses that relate to the issue in hand.

Is the Apostle Paul a heretic?