Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,270
113
Didn't think I was playing strawman today.
I have no idea what it means to do so.

I don't feel I started an argument but was responding to one.

I also quoted 1Cor 8 as well.
Well actually I asked "What are the thoughts concerning 1 Cor 8?

I know what it means full well otherwise I would not have quoted it.
Trying to draw a response to discuss.

Can't see a strawman with that.
I dont know what "strawman" means either :( think i was called that here before on this thread though too..
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,368
113
Amen Brother...The more I read the Word , the more I realize that we can only forever approach God through our LORD Jesus Christ with empty hands...
I went a few months thinking how good I had been , not realising that every day I commit a sin , you know the unseen ones , and then bam , the rug was pulled from under my feet , again I was humbled , and was taught a lesson , God is now in control of my life , no matter how good I think I am , I came above my station , kind of a proudful head , and then I was brought low again and coming to my LORD once again with empty hands , and that is how it is...

The good works that follow are the works from the Holy Spirit , it is He who directs our paths...Tell me something please , anyone , what makes a person believe that they need works , i understand the Catholic ways , but people who claim they are Christians and read the same Scriptures we read , why does some people get By grace we are saved , not by works lest anyone should boast , why do they have to add to it , why don`t they see what we see ,?...We all have the Holy Spirit , yet the Holy Spirit is showing one thing to one side , and the workers another , no that cannot be , God is not a God of confusion , so obviously the side that add works are confused yet they do not see it , why ?...xox...
Amen........glad to see you understand Rose......for sure!
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,270
113
Like I said the discussion was about meat offered to idols not clean and unclean meats. A strawman with redirect an argument into another topic, just like you did. :)
Imo..when i read his post..the meat shellfish etc was PART of his questions when replying to shamah..not the WHOLE concept..
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,464
113
Anaheim, Cali.
Why don't you relax, we are plenty awake. Would you not say that our faith will have works after we have been saved by grace? You keep implying we are trying to be saved by works, not true. I did not do anything to receive God's gift of life. Just like you, I was saved by grace.

Now, I do many different things than I did as an unbeliever. Next, someone comes along and condemns me for keeping the 10 Commandments. I have been to the mission field and worked drug rehab in Oakland, Cal. This was during the crack epidemic from 1985-1992. God has brought me down a path of faith that most wouldn't believe. When I get nervous is when I have no works. :)
Doing good works are a blessing that we get to do. The Lord let's us do them. He doesn't need us, we need him.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,135
4,137
113
Aids patients, ex-convicts, alcoholics, addicts. The mentally ill. That's what I did. I used to study under Dr. Walter Martin, author of 'Kingdom of Cults'. He had a call in radio show too in the 80's aka 'The Bible Answerman Show' I answered phones for the suicide prevention Hot Line and for Trinity Broadcasting, Channel 40 Irvine, Ca. I'm not looking for a job so I'll skip the resume or I'd be bragging.
Dr. Martin would vehemently object to some of things you have been telling us. And you went from Dr. Walter Martin, to Trinity Broadcasting, the OPPOSITE side of the spectrum as far as I am concerned. Dr. Martin was a hardcore, conservative, Evangelical as you get, and then you go to the opposite side of theology, Trinity Broadcasting is mostly promoting Easy Believism, and Word of Faith Movement, both are false teachers in my opinion. No wonder your theology got so messed up.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,885
3,816
113
Like I said the discussion was about meat offered to idols not clean and unclean meats. A strawman with redirect an argument into another topic, just like you did. :)
Ok I see what you are saying.

The point I was trying to make is that in the OT certain foods were forbidden to eat because they were unclean so is that different to food sacrificed to idols?

All are prohibited and if one indulged in any is that not sin.

I was trying to draw a response.

I do see what you are saying though and thanks for clarifying.

I will let it go now
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
399
83
I dont know what "strawman" means either :( think i was called that here before on this thread though too..
A strawman argument is a fallacious argument that a person puts up saying someone is using it and then attacks it. It puts words in the mouth of the opposition they never stated.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Deuteronomy 6 :4-9

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates."

And although i know this was regarding OT law and comhmands..we are supposed to teach our children about Gods word and take EVERY OPPERTUNITY to tell them about Jesus that our families will be God honoring...etc
I agree and am a firm believer in:

Proverbs 22:4-6,4 The reward of humility is the fear of יהוה, Riches, and esteem and life."5 Thorns, snares are in the way of the perverse; He who guards his life keeps far away from them."6 Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he is old he turns not away from it."

If the majority of humans were taught the teachings of Yahshua/Jesus the world would be a different place. Rather most are brought up by movies, music, etc.

It is sad to think so many get misled while they could be taught about Yahushua, well may Yah guide us and strengthen us to do His will and may others seed grow in Yah!
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,885
3,816
113
Doing good works are a blessing that we get to do. The Lord let's us do them. He doesn't need us, we need him.
Amen.

How many times I have said to God "Wow you used me today" is amazing.

I don't know why he would use me but he does.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
399
83
I believe heaven and earth has not passed:

Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

I believe the Levitical priesthood is replaced with Yahshua the High Priest after the order of Malak Zadiq:

Hebrews 13:20 “And the Mighty One of peace who brought up our Master יהושע from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.”

Hebrews 9:11-12, "But the Messiah came near as a High Priest over the righteous things to come, with the great and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation; Nor through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once, for all, having obtained eternal redemption."

Thus we guard the Law mediated by Yahshua:

Mat 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Luke 16:16-17, "The Law and the Prophets were until John, since that time the Kingdom of YHWH is preached, and every man is pressed to enter it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against YHWH, and will wear out; mentally attack to cause to fall away, the saints of YHWH, and think to change appointed times and Laws…"

As for circumcision, a much debated topic, I am always seeking and learning, I think the main intent of circumcision has always been of the heart, but doing it physical is like a physical baptisim, not wrong but an outward sign of an inward commitment..

Deuteronomy 10:16, “And you shall circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and harden your neck no more.”

I believe YHWH (the Father) is greater that Yahshua (the Messiah) but that the MEssiah is eternal:

Yahanan/John 14:28, "You have heard that I told you: I go away, but come again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Psalm 110:4, “יהוה has sworn and does not relent, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Malkitseḏeq.”

Hebrews 5:6, "just as He says also in another passage, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."

Daniyl 7:13-14, “I was looking in the night visions and saw One like the Son of Enosh, coming with the clouds of the heavens! And He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. And to Him was given rulership and preciousness and a reign, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His rule is an everlasting rule which shall not pass away, and His reign that which shall not be destroyed.”
The definition of sin is breaking the law. Since we all sin the law obviously is still in effect.
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,270
113
A strawman argument is a fallacious argument that a person puts up saying someone is using it and then attacks it. It puts words in the mouth of the opposition they never stated.
Ahhhhh..lol..dont know many on here that habent fallen into THAT catigory a time or 2..lol ..a bumch of strawmen? Watch out for the match..lol
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,368
113
It is not ok to eat meat sacrified to idols.. According to the Messiah:

Revelation 2:14, "But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality."

Revelation 2:20, "But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols."

are you really claiming that it is ok? To kill an animal in sacrifice to a pagan idol and eat it?

The Most High says to not even make or have idols... it is the 2nd Commandment...

Exodus 20:4-6,4 “You do not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of that which is in the heavens above, or which is in the earth beneath, or which is in the waters under the earth,"5 you do not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, יהוה your Elohim am a jealous Ěl, visiting the crookedness of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,"6 but showing loving-commitment to thousands, to those who love Me and guard My commands."
.

Of course you reject the bible when it contradicts you law abiding rigmarole....I suggest you get over your rose colored law glasses which bind your hands and blinds your eyes to the New Testament...and my quote was valid deceiver!!!

Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up.2 Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. 3 But whoever loves God is known by God.[a]
4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” 5 For even if there are so-called gods,whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father,from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8 But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.
9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Okay there. Did you know the Bible states the levites will:
Jeremiah 33:18 nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.’ ”

Jeremiah 33:20-21
This is what the Lord says: ‘If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night no longer come at their appointed time, then my covenant with David my servant—and my covenant with the Levites who are priests ministering before me—can be broken and David will no longer have a descendant to reign on his throne.

Circumcision within Christianity is NOT a much debated topic, Paul says it doesn't matter its "nothing" and he rebukes people who try to compel others to be circumcised, and says that if you are called uncircumcised remain so!

And did you notice "until all things are fulfilled" in Matthew 5:18? It was fulfilled, at the cross. And even if it wasn't, your position is inconsistent because the levitical laws and rituals are part of the "yod" the smallest letters, and are part of the law which wont disappear until the new heaven and earth come along. So you should get to sacrificing!

I agree with you that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves and love God with all our hearts minds and soul.

And one more thing, do you believe in the trinity?

I will answer my own question of what applies from the Torah:
The things that Jesus and the Apostles taught to us in the New Testament.
I know about this passage, I think it VITAL to read a few verses before that too, to understand what is really going on there:

Jeremiah 33:14-18,14 See, the days are coming,’ declares יהוה, ‘when I shall establish the good word which I have promised to the house of Yisra’ĕl and to the house of Yehuḏah:"15 In those days and at that time I cause a Branch of righteousness to spring forth for Dawiḏ. And He shall do right-ruling and righteousness in the earth."16 In those days Yehuḏah shall be saved, and Yerushalayim dwell in safety. And this is that which shall be proclaimed to her: ‘יהוה our Righteousness.’"17 “For thus said יהוה, ‘For Dawiḏ there is not to cease a man to sit on the throne of the house of Yisra’ĕl."18 And for the priests, the Lĕwites, there is not to cease a man to offer ascending offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.’ ”

I think Psalm 89 is vital here as are many other passages. AS Ps132,

Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of Dawiḏ and over His reign,a to establish it and sustain it with right-ruling and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this. Footnote: aSee Isa 16:5, Psa 2:1-12, Psa 45:6, Mic 5:2, Luk 1:32-33."

Hebrews 1:8-9,8 But to the Son He says, “Your throne, O Elohim, is forever and ever, a sceptre of straightness is the sceptre of Your reign."9 “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness. Because of this, Elohim, Your Elohim, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” Psa 45:6-7."

And did you notice "until all things are fulfilled" in Matthew 5:18? It was fulfilled, at the cross. And even if it wasn't, your position is inconsistent because the levitical laws and rituals are part of the "yod" the smallest letters, and are part of the law which wont disappear until the new heaven and earth come along. So you should get to sacrificing!
I did notice "until all things are fulfilled" and ALL is not YET fulfilled:

There are 2 "it is done" statements...

Fulfilled already
John 19:30, “So when יהושע took the sour wine He said, “It is done!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.”

To be fulfilled in the future
Revelation 21:4-8, “And Yah shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying. And there shall be no more pain, for the former matters have passed away. And He who was sitting on the throne said, “See, I make all matters new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and trustworthy. And He said to me, “It is done! I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the Beginning and the End. To the one who thirsts I shall give of the fountain of the water of life without payment. The one who overcomes shall inherit all this, and I shall be his Strength and he shall be My son. But as for the cowardly, and untrustworthy, and abominable, and murderers, and those who whore, and drug sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the false, their part is in the lake which burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”

There are hundreds of "Old Testament" prophecies that are still future.

I agree with you that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves and love God with all our hearts minds and soul.

And one more thing, do you believe in the trinity?

I will answer my own question of what applies from the Torah:
The things that Jesus and the Apostles taught to us in the New Testament.
Mat 7:12-14, "Therefore, all things you want men to do to you, do the same to them, for this is the (intent of the) Law and the Prophets. Enter in through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who go that way. Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way which leads to life, and few there are who find it."

As for the trinity the main "trinity" verse is a well known forgery:

1 John/Yahanan 5:7-8, "For there are three which testify: The Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three are of one accord."

Altered text from the 9th - 15th century:

1 John/Yahanan 5:7-8, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

1 John 5:7-8, “Because there are three who bear witness: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood. And the three are in agreement."

‘Comma Johanneum’ or ‘the Heavenly Witnesses’ refers to a short clause in John 5:7-8 in the Latin Vulgate text which was transmitted since the Early Middle Ages. It was later included in the Textus Receptus (published in 1516) in support of trinity doctrine. The ‘comma’ does not appear in the older Greek text. The comma first appeared in the Vulgate manuscripts of the 9th century. The first Greek (Textus Receptus) manuscript that contains the comma dates from the 15th century. The comma is absent from the Ethiopiac, Aramaic, Syriac, Slavic, Armenian, Georgian, and Arabic translations of the Greek New Testament. The scholarly consensus is that that passage is a Latin corruption that entered the Greek manuscript tradition in some subsequent copies. As the ‘comma’ does not appear in the manuscript tradition of other languages.

I personally take joy in knowing YHWH is the Father and Yahshua is the Messiah, beyond that I dont get into to much of a debate or make a big deal. Nowhere does it say the trinity is a salvation issue in Scripture, so I like to spend my mind and heart seeking Yah.