Not By Works
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U
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. That faith will produce works otherwise the faith is not real. Those works allow others to see what we really are. No works means a wolf in sheep's clothing. As Jesus stated by their fruit (works) you shall know them. Example - attend a church on vacation and do you hear the gospel message from the pulpit. With that work you will know whether or not the minister is a Christian or a wolf in sheep's clothing.
As Jesus said by their fruit you shall know them. You are to judge whether the works are Christian or not. There are a few non Christians on this site. You can tell by their posts. That is the work you can see here. Having conversations, watching what they do, etc. is looking at their works. On a political forum atheists stick out like a sore thumb.
Hi Grace
How does it refer to the vine and the branches?
If as you agree the Romans chapter in hand is about national/corporate salvation, then is that not the same context with vine and the branches.
Those who believe that one can lose their salvation often quote the vine and the branches but I can't recall anyone quoting Romans and working it back.
So you are the first.
So will you let me know how you come to your conclusion?
How does it refer to the vine and the branches?
If as you agree the Romans chapter in hand is about national/corporate salvation, then is that not the same context with vine and the branches.
Those who believe that one can lose their salvation often quote the vine and the branches but I can't recall anyone quoting Romans and working it back.
So you are the first.
So will you let me know how you come to your conclusion?
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U
Well atheists eventual reveal themselves and what they believe so I do not think they really belong in the mix.
But seriously how much love and fruit of the spirit do I have to show to prove my faith, certainly if we are going to draw conclusions on who are the true believers we should have an objective system of measurement.
Did you ever consider that the fruits that Jesus was speaking about were not the fruits of the spirit?
There are various meanings of fruit and fruits in the bible and mixing these all up has just created a lot of fruit inspection and by your words you actually create a scenario whereby people are going to hell by not creating these fruits, so much for "saved by grace"....did you ever consider this?
The unsaved can do fruits of the spirit too and fool many people.
But seriously how much love and fruit of the spirit do I have to show to prove my faith, certainly if we are going to draw conclusions on who are the true believers we should have an objective system of measurement.
Did you ever consider that the fruits that Jesus was speaking about were not the fruits of the spirit?
There are various meanings of fruit and fruits in the bible and mixing these all up has just created a lot of fruit inspection and by your words you actually create a scenario whereby people are going to hell by not creating these fruits, so much for "saved by grace"....did you ever consider this?
The unsaved can do fruits of the spirit too and fool many people.
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1. & 2. Look at my post about the Post on Parable of the Sower, and you will find that YOU TOO include people that have NEVER BEEN BORN AGAIN, and they are UN-SAVED, #74,648 . That is what we call EASY BELIEVISM, including the two crops that never produced any harvest. Remember Faith comes by hearing (with understanding) a message about Christ. You can sit in a pew for a long time before you HEAR WITH UNDERSTANDING. I went to church all my life, thought just because I sat on a Pew, and said the Memorized Apostles Creed, that made me Christian. NOT! I did not get saved until I was 29 years old. I KNOW I WAS NOT SAVED BEFORE THAT, because the last week of 1977 I attempted suicide three times. Twice I had a Pistol against my temple with the trigger half pulled, and absolute TERROR over came me, NOT BECAUSE I WAS GOING TO DIE, THAT IS WHAT I WANTED; I realized that I WAS IN THE GATES TO HADES/HELL AND WAS ABOUT TO WALK IN VOLUNTARILY. NO MAN could ever put that KIND of TERROR in me, NOT EVEN IF A MASS MURDERER HAD A KNIFE TO MY THROAT. A TERROR WAY BEYOND ANY MORTAL MAN COULD EVER PUT IN ME. After the Third attempt at SUICIDE, after I sobered up, I walked into my Bedroom, and WAVE after WAVE of TREMENDOUS GUILT FOR MY WHOLE LIFESTYLE, KEPT WASHING OVER ME. I found myself on my KNEES, WEEPING AND BAWLING LIKE A BABY, praying a prayer that ONLY THE HOLY SPIRIT COULD HAVE GIVEN ME. "FORGIVE ME LORD, FORGIVE ME! If you have a purpose for my life, YOU are going to have to come into my Heart and do it threw me, I CANNOT LIVE LIKE THAT!"
THAT WAS THE MOMENT OF DEEP LOVE AND TRUST IN JESUS CHRIST. There is more to that story, but will save it for Later. BUT that MOMENT WHEN I WILLINGLY SURRENDERED TO JESUS CHRIST FOREVER, was the MOMENT OF MY SALVATION, and when I VERBALIZED THAT PRAYER, MY SALVATION WAS SEALED FOREVER.
THAT IS WHAT IT MEANS TO ENTER THRU THE NARROW GATE, in Mat. 7. In the PARABLE of the GATES, ONLY those who call themselves CHRISTIANS are even MENTIONED. The Broad Road so called Christians think they are going to Heaven, but NEVER had a Personal LOVING Relationship with JESUS CHRIST; and have been DECEIVED by a false gospel, and they are on the way to the DESTRUCTION of HADES/HELL, just like I WAS. MANY go thru the WRONG GATE, but ONLY A FEW FIND THE NARROW GATE.
You say, the entire Bible is full of persons that obeyed God, and I TELL YOU, if the MOTIVE FOR OBEYING HIM IS NOT PURELY LOVE FOR HIM, you are ON THE BROAD ROAD TO HADES/HELL, deceived into believing you are on the road to Heaven, because you have entered the WRONG GATE.
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My last statment was:
GIVE HIM ALL THE GLORY FOR DOING ALL GOOD WORKS THAT COME OUT OF THE LOVE IN YOUR HEART.
AND you also said: Your last sentence sounds very calvinistic.
SO YOU WANT TO ROB JESUS OF THE GLORY THAT BELONGS ONLY TO HIM? AMAZING!
PAUL DID NOT:
Galatians 2:20 (GWT)
20 I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live I live by believing in God's Son, who loved me and took the punishment for my sins.
YOUR STATEMENT REEKS WITH PRIDE.
I would have you KNOW that Armenian VS. Calvinist SINFUL ARGUMENT, we considered it DEAD AND BURIED in the early 1980's, and people like you KEEP DIGGING IT UP.
The reason we decided to consider it DEAD AND BURIED, is it is UTTERLY SINFUL. In fact it is listed as the SEVENTH thing that GOD HATES.
Proverbs 6:16-19 (NJB)
16 There are six things that Yahweh hates, seven that he abhors:
17 a haughty look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that weaves wicked plots, feet that hurry to do evil,
19 a false witness who lies with every breath, and one who sows dissension among brothers.
I am so GLAD that Neither side of that Sinful Argument, can lay claim that I am on their side. You see, I am in agreement with ONLY 3 points of Calvinism. SO the CALVINISTS will NOT CLAIM ME, and NEITHER WILL THE ARMENIANS.
So what can they Call ME ? ? ?
JUST A CHRISTIAN, and Yes, I go to a Non-Denominational Church TOO.
You miss the whole point of this scripture Dan. You go to a church, you guys feed poor people, donate to missions, council folks on drug use and marriages, help the addicted, feed the poor and you do all these great things in Christ's name. You give Him the credit just as those in Matt. 7 do.
You have works, just as those "Christians" in Matthew had "works". It's not that they weren't "GOOD ENOUGH" it's that by your "Works" you show you are "TOO GOOD" to follow God's Path. He says Keep His Sabbath Holy. You say NO!! My Sabbath is better. He created Holy days to show you His Salvation plan and told you to honor "HIS FEASTS", but you say NO!!! My feasts unto the Lord are better. He said "don't create images of God in the likeness of anything, including an image of man, but you said NO!!! WE are going to create an image and declare him to the entire world as the "Christian" god.
Does God need you to feed poor people? No, He can rain manna. Does God need you to save an addict, a marriage, build His Church? No, it foolishness to even think so. He don't need you to create your own religion. He doesn't want you to listen to the "Other Voice". He has already told you over and over what He wants, and that is to "CHOOSE" Him.
Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
1 Sam. 15:
22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
Matt. 7:
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, ( Good Works) I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, (Iniquity) shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
He wants you to "CHOOSE" Him. To "deny" your idea of a path or religion, and walk in the Path He "foreordained that we should walk in) . He doesn't want to "make" you choose Him, He wants you to "offer your body a living sacrifice", to Him in trust and Faith.
He wants you to "Believe" in Him more that your own mind, your own sight, like Abraham. He doesn't want you to "choose" the other voice which also uses parts of God's Word, like Eve did.
Those "Christians" had been deceived just like Eve. They were convinced by a voice which also used parts of God's Word, that "their sight" was better than God's.
That they were already saved, already immortal. That their religion in Christ's name was "better" than God's "good works" that He foreordained that they should walk in them.
No Dan. EVERYONE has works. We just need to go to the Light of the World, the Word of God which became Flesh to expose whether our works are wrought in God or not.
John 3:
20 For every one that doeth evil (Iniquity) hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (Not religious man)
You have works, just as those "Christians" in Matthew had "works". It's not that they weren't "GOOD ENOUGH" it's that by your "Works" you show you are "TOO GOOD" to follow God's Path. He says Keep His Sabbath Holy. You say NO!! My Sabbath is better. He created Holy days to show you His Salvation plan and told you to honor "HIS FEASTS", but you say NO!!! My feasts unto the Lord are better. He said "don't create images of God in the likeness of anything, including an image of man, but you said NO!!! WE are going to create an image and declare him to the entire world as the "Christian" god.
Does God need you to feed poor people? No, He can rain manna. Does God need you to save an addict, a marriage, build His Church? No, it foolishness to even think so. He don't need you to create your own religion. He doesn't want you to listen to the "Other Voice". He has already told you over and over what He wants, and that is to "CHOOSE" Him.
Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
1 Sam. 15:
22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
Matt. 7:
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, ( Good Works) I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, (Iniquity) shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
He wants you to "CHOOSE" Him. To "deny" your idea of a path or religion, and walk in the Path He "foreordained that we should walk in) . He doesn't want to "make" you choose Him, He wants you to "offer your body a living sacrifice", to Him in trust and Faith.
He wants you to "Believe" in Him more that your own mind, your own sight, like Abraham. He doesn't want you to "choose" the other voice which also uses parts of God's Word, like Eve did.
Those "Christians" had been deceived just like Eve. They were convinced by a voice which also used parts of God's Word, that "their sight" was better than God's.
That they were already saved, already immortal. That their religion in Christ's name was "better" than God's "good works" that He foreordained that they should walk in them.
No Dan. EVERYONE has works. We just need to go to the Light of the World, the Word of God which became Flesh to expose whether our works are wrought in God or not.
John 3:
20 For every one that doeth evil (Iniquity) hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (Not religious man)
I don't care how many buses you own
Or the size of your sanctuary
Doesn't matter how steep
Your steeple is, if it's sittin' on a cemetery
I don't care if you pave your parking lot
Or put pads upon your pews
What good is a picture perfect stage
If you're missin' all the cues
I don't care if your pastor is super powered
And your program's always new
What you need is love and truth
And men are gonna come to you
It doesn't matter if you know the Bible
If it's all just in your head
But the thing I need to ask you
Is have you done the things I said?
Do you love your wife?
For her and for and for your children
Are you layin' down your life?
What about the others?
Are you livin' as a servant
To your sisters and your brothers?
Do you make the poor man beg you for a bone?
Do the widow and the orphan cry alone?
I don't care if you pray for miracles
I don't care if you speak with tongues
I don't care if you've said you love Me
In every song you've sung
It doesn't matter if your sacrifice of praise
Is loud enough to raise the dead
The thing I need to ask you
Is have you done the things I said?
Do you love your wife?
With all you've got inside you
Are you layin' down your life?
What about the others?
Are you livin' as a servant
To your sisters and your brothers?
Do you make the poor man beg you for a bone?
Do the widow and the orphan cry alone?
Lord, we were your prisoner
But we did not come to you
When was it that we saw you sick
That we didn't follow through
Every time you turned your head
And pretended not to see
When you did it not to the least of these
You did it not to Me
Aka Don Fransico song.
James 2:14-17
Faith Without Works Is Dead
(cf. Gen. 22; Josh. 2)
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Our works are as a result of love.
Jesus said "If you love me you will do, you will be like me and want to be like me"
Or the size of your sanctuary
Doesn't matter how steep
Your steeple is, if it's sittin' on a cemetery
I don't care if you pave your parking lot
Or put pads upon your pews
What good is a picture perfect stage
If you're missin' all the cues
I don't care if your pastor is super powered
And your program's always new
What you need is love and truth
And men are gonna come to you
It doesn't matter if you know the Bible
If it's all just in your head
But the thing I need to ask you
Is have you done the things I said?
Do you love your wife?
For her and for and for your children
Are you layin' down your life?
What about the others?
Are you livin' as a servant
To your sisters and your brothers?
Do you make the poor man beg you for a bone?
Do the widow and the orphan cry alone?
I don't care if you pray for miracles
I don't care if you speak with tongues
I don't care if you've said you love Me
In every song you've sung
It doesn't matter if your sacrifice of praise
Is loud enough to raise the dead
The thing I need to ask you
Is have you done the things I said?
Do you love your wife?
With all you've got inside you
Are you layin' down your life?
What about the others?
Are you livin' as a servant
To your sisters and your brothers?
Do you make the poor man beg you for a bone?
Do the widow and the orphan cry alone?
Lord, we were your prisoner
But we did not come to you
When was it that we saw you sick
That we didn't follow through
Every time you turned your head
And pretended not to see
When you did it not to the least of these
You did it not to Me
Aka Don Fransico song.
James 2:14-17
Faith Without Works Is Dead
(cf. Gen. 22; Josh. 2)
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Our works are as a result of love.
Jesus said "If you love me you will do, you will be like me and want to be like me"
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
2 Tim. 2:
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already (already immortal, already saved, same thing the serpent convinced Eve of) and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one (Jew or Gentile) that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
It seems those "Christians" in Matt. 7, call the Christ Lord, they had works, they gave the Christ credit for them all, it's just that their works "transgressed the Commandments of God", or in other words, they lived in iniquity.
Apparently that is not God's Will.
2 Tim. 2:
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already (already immortal, already saved, same thing the serpent convinced Eve of) and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one (Jew or Gentile) that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
It seems those "Christians" in Matt. 7, call the Christ Lord, they had works, they gave the Christ credit for them all, it's just that their works "transgressed the Commandments of God", or in other words, they lived in iniquity.
Apparently that is not God's Will.
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Do you believe GOD IS ALL KNOWING, and HE KNOWS all of our Decisions we will ultimately make, before the FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD?
You seem to GREATLY diminish the ALL KNOWING POWER OF GOD.
Joshua 24:15 (HCSB)
15 But if it doesn’t please you to worship Yahweh, choose for yourselves today the one you will worship: the gods your fathers worshiped beyond the Euphrates River or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living. As for me and my family, we will worship Yahweh.”
YES, I BELIEVE THAT, HOWEVER:
GOD KNEW BEFORE HE FORMED THE EARTH THE ULTIMATE DECISIONS EVERYONE WOULD EVER MAKE, PERIOD.
HERE IS THE PROOF:
Revelation 13:8-9 (HCSB)
8 All those who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.
9 If anyone has an ear, he should listen:
Revelation 17:8 (HCSB)
8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up from the abyss and go to destruction. Those who live on the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast that was, and is not, and will be present ⌊again⌋.
Revelation 20:15 (HCSB)
15 And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
SO GOD CAN FOREKNEW, BEFORE HE CREATED THE EARTH, EVERY SINGLE PERSON THAT HAS EVER LIVED, AND THE DECISIONS THEY WILL ULTIMATELY MAKE. GOD IS MUCH, MUCH BIGGER AND MORE POWERFUL THAN YOU HAVE EVER KNOWN.
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I have a theory that may be a possibility, but this is only a theory.
What does GOD's OMNIPRESENCE mean to YOU ? ? ?
Everywhere in the Universe at the SAME TIME, correct ? ? ?
So we agree on that Part of IT.
BUT WHAT IF GOD'S OMNIPRESENCE INCLUDES - EVERYWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE AND EVERY SECOND OF TIME AS WE KNOW IT, ALL AT THE SAME TIME.
GOD IS ETERNAL, AND TIME CERTAINLY IS NOT LIKE OUR TIME, IN FACT IT SAYS A DAY IS AS A 1000 YEARS, WHICH CAN ALSO BE INFINITY. HE IS THE CREATOR OF TIME AS WE KNOW IT, AND IS NOT A BEING TRAVELING THROUGH THE TIME HE CREATED. NOW IF THAT IS TRUE, THEN GOD CAN BE AT EVERY SINCERE CONVERSION, AND AT THE END OF TIME AS WE KNOW IT, AND BE AT THE BOOK OF LIFE BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, ALL AT THE SAME TIME.
NOW GOD IS INFINITELY BIGGER THAN YOU EVER THOUGHT HIM TO BE!
Our Names are written in the LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE before HE even formed the earth.
But also:
Revelation 22:13 (NIV)
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Isaiah 46:10 (NASB)
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';
BECAUSE HE IS OMNIPRESENT IN THE BEGINNING AND THE END AND EVERYWHERE IN BETWEEN.
Think about it, GOD DOES NOT FIT IN A BOX THAT WE CALL TIME.
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