Not By Works

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GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
NO, You are disobedient WAY more than Two times a day:

1 Peter 2:13-16 (NKJV)
13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.


View attachment 189576
Speed even accidentally - YOU SIN.

View attachment 189578
LITTER or NO DOG LEASH - YOU SIN.


Cigarette buts are Litter too - YOU SIN


ILLEGAL PARKING, even if you do not
get caught - YOU SIN.


View attachment 189579
DO NOT PICK UP AFTER YOUR DOG - YOU SIN.


JAYWALKING IS ILLEGAL WHERE POSTED - YOU SIN.


SPITTING In Public is ILLEGAL, and JUST PLAIN RUDE - YOU SIN.

And probably a whole lot of other Ordinances you just IGNORE.

The other day there was a man with an obvious Chest Cold, going into Walmart. He hacked up a large amount of Phlegm and spit it on the ground just before the entrance, AND 20 feet away was handy wipe to wipe down grocery cart handles, AND A TRASH CAN. How RUDE is that?
Wow.
A real Pharisee in our midst.
A legalistic supreme.
Lord have mercy.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
27,842
8,470
113
Instead of sarcasm it would be nice to have a conversation.
i have been asking you sincere questions and you have been pretending they are sarcastic.

did you find an x that simultaneously satisfies:
x = 0
x > 0
?

of course you didn't. there is no solution.

this is what you have said: we must be obedient. we are not perfect and will not be.

let x = sin ((or disobedience if you prefer))

we must obey translates to
x = 0
there must not be disobedience.

we are not perfect translates to
x > 0
we are disobedient.

there is no solution in your paradigm.

here is the solution:

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

this is the gospel, Fran. the real one.
the sting of sin is death and the power of sin is the law. Christ has died for us, and by believing Him, we died with Him, to be raised with Him as He has risen. the law has no authority over a dead man. sin has become powerless and death has been swallowed up in victory. sin has no more mastery over us because it has no more power and no more sting, and this is not by works nor by human will, desire or exertion. it is by the grace of the merciful and wise God who became flesh and gave Himself as a propitiation.

the impossible situation you say is the gospel is certain death. it has been overcome by the cross, thank God!
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
7,699
3,642
113
Not under the law means we are not saved by the law but by grace.
No one was ever saved by the law. Even in the OT persons were saved by faith,,,God never changes.
There were 3 types of law in the OT times. Civil law, ceremonial law and moral law. The Hebrews, Israelites and Jews were expected to keep all three because they were part of their culture.


Jesus abolished the civil and ceremonial law and now only the moral law remains.
When we speak of the law today, it's commonly understood as the moral law, or the 10 commandments.
I don't know anyone who keeps the 613 laws.!
the language does not say what you just said, the language says the Law means all of the Law,

do you recognize the greek language as accurate or not?
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
i have been asking you sincere questions and you have been pretending they are sarcastic.

did you find an x that simultaneously satisfies:
x = 0
x > 0
?

of course you didn't. there is no solution.

this is what you have said: we must be obedient. we are not perfect and will not be.

let x = sin ((or disobedience if you prefer))

we must obey translates to
x = 0
there must not be disobedience.

we are not perfect translates to
x > 0
we are disobedient.

there is no solution in your paradigm.

here is the solution:

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

this is the gospel, Fran. the real one.
the sting of sin is death and the power of sin is the law. Christ has died for us, and by believing Him, we died with Him, to be raised with Him as He has risen. the law has no authority over a dead man. sin has become powerless and death has been swallowed up in victory. sin has no more mastery over us because it has no more power and no more sting, and this is not by works nor by human will, desire or exertion. it is by the grace of the merciful and wise God who became flesh and gave Himself as a propitiation.

the impossible situation you say is the gospel is certain death. it has been overcome by the cross, thank God!
If you believe God does not demand obedience that is your prerogative.
Have you read John 14 and 15?
That's all it talks about.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
27,842
8,470
113
If you believe God does not demand obedience that is your prerogative.
Have you read John 14 and 15?
That's all it talks about.
if you reject the gospel that's on you. all i can do is keep telling you. despite the slander, despite the false witness, despite the malicious misrepresentation, i will keep proclaiming it.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
the language does not say what you just said, the language says the Law means all of the Law,

do you recognize the greek language as accurate or not?
I know a professor of Greek, koine and Hebrew. I ask him when I have a question.
So far only twice. Once for the aorist tense and once for the word humble in Mathew 18:4

I feel the Bible has been translated well enough that we should not even need lexicons.
I know that no language could be translated perfectly for different reasons.

If you think the law means all of the law then this should be clarified before discussing.
When I hear the law, I think the 10 commandments.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
7,699
3,642
113
I know a professor of Greek, koine and Hebrew. I ask him when I have a question.
So far only twice. Once for the aorist tense and once for the word humble in Mathew 18:4

I feel the Bible has been translated well enough that we should not even need lexicons.
I know that no language could be translated perfectly for different reasons.

If you think the law means all of the law then this should be clarified before discussing.
When I hear the law, I think the 10 commandments.
I see.

so, you do not care what the language that the N.T was written in says, you are just going to go with your opinion of what the English word means.

o.k. whatever. i'll stick with the actual definition of the word law.

and when I think, I think what Paul said- not under it. and, not to mention, gentiles never were.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
7,699
3,642
113
oh, by the way, you judeaizers need to come up with a new formula. this one is getting old and predictable.

you guys all do the same thing, show up, seem to just want to have friendly conversation. then you start saying " we should obey God , right" . then you say " obeying God means obeying the Law " . then you end up at keeping the Sabbath for salvation.

now, you have not got to the Sabbath yet, sorry I jumped ahead, but, now you can just go ahead and go there, and push that lie along with the rest.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,259
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In Hebrews 12:14, the NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Yet we also have progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, a remaining active pursuit in practical, progressive holiness, in regards to our ongoing sanctification.

*So without justification, there is no sanctification. Our ongoing sanctification has no bearing on our justification. That is, even if we don't reach entire sanctification/sinless perfection in this lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1).

In Hebrews 12:15, we read - See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God. The NASB reads - comes short of the grace of God.. The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. Not a loss of salvation here but a failure to obtain it.

Only those who have been saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9) qualify to serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

In regards to the believer's ongoing sanctification, in Philippians 2:12, we read - Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. This verse often gets misinterpreted by works-salvationists to mean "work for" your salvation, yet works salvation is not being taught here. The idea is to progress towards the finish or completion in spiritual growth and maturity in the process of ongoing sanctification. It should be noted that Philippians 2:12 makes it clear we are to be active, not passive, in this process. However, though we are active, we are not alone.
Hi Mailmandan, this post is the best presentation of what happens to a believer when we are "born again." that I have ever heard, this side of heaven. All of the elements of a "True Born Again Believer" are spelled out simply, clearly and understandable. Two very key elements to the growth and understanding of God's will for my life were; "Our Position in Christ", and "Our Practice in Christ."

"Our Position in Christ", the imputed righteousness of Christ I am "Justified and Sanctified" before a holy and just God. When God looks at me He see's His Son Jesus Christ, "by faith" all of my sins are washed away and I have been sanctified, (set apart) made holy, "without which no one will see the Lord." Hebrews12:14, the debt of sin has been paid in full, "it is finished", praise God.

"Our Practice in Christ", namely this is our daily walk with Jesus; Quote Mailmandan; "evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives." As Dan say's, "it is on going" sanctification which is the process of our growth and becoming mature in Christ. Progressive sanctification is separate from a Christians one time "Justification by faith", whereby we are justified by the death, burial and resurrection of our savior Jesus Christ.

The Gospel, the Good News which is God reconciling sinful human beings to Himself through the death, burial and resurrection of His dear Son Jesus Christ is freely offered to all;

Acts16:30,31
30)
He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31) They replied,Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Again God bless and thank you Mailmandan, "True Gospel"....:)
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
In Hebrews 12:14, the NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Yet we also have progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, a remaining active pursuit in practical, progressive holiness, in regards to our ongoing sanctification.

*So without justification, there is no sanctification. Our ongoing sanctification has no bearing on our justification. That is, even if we don't reach entire sanctification/sinless perfection in this lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1).

In Hebrews 12:15, we read - See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God. The NASB reads - comes short of the grace of God.. The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. Not a loss of salvation here but a failure to obtain it.

Only those who have been saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9) qualify to serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

In regards to the believer's ongoing sanctification, in Philippians 2:12, we read - Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. This verse often gets misinterpreted by works-salvationists to mean "work for" your salvation, yet works salvation is not being taught here. The idea is to progress towards the finish or completion in spiritual growth and maturity in the process of ongoing sanctification. It should be noted that Philippians 2:12 makes it clear we are to be active, not passive, in this process. However, though we are active, we are not alone.
Hey MMD, Sorry I won't be answering that post of yours.
I'm outta here.
You and @BillG are the only ones I could speak to here.
I wish @Studyman the best but I doubt it.
Anyway, I'll be seeing you around.
GG
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
46,144
20,066
113
Welcome back Fran--->[email protected] ....try not to lose your mind this time and get banned.....and I will again say....FAITH blended with anything to gain, keep, embellish or top off salvation = a false gospel with no power to save.........why are you removed from the simplicity that is found in Christ unto a foolish, bewitched way that has no power??
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,259
3,719
113
Hey everybody,
GodsGrace10 1

Just told me that it is: #75,041

Wow.
A real Pharisee in our midst.
A legalistic supreme.

Lord have mercy.

To my posting of this VERSE in POST, #75,039:

1 Peter 2:13-16 (NKJV)
13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.


He does not want to admit these Violations of State and City ORDINANCES are SIN. Maybe he thinks he is Sinless, therefore these OBVIOUS SINS, he will not CONFESS. And he called me a PHARISEE, when he does not even want to CONFESS these obvious Sins.
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,698
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Hey MMD, Sorry I won't be answering that post of yours.
I'm outta here.
You and @BillG are the only ones I could speak to here.
I wish @Studyman the best but I doubt it.
Anyway, I'll be seeing you around.
GG
This right here. Think about it, you who have biblical discernment. It is nothing more and nothing less than the carnality, immaturity and division that Paul rebuked at Corinth in his first few chapters of 1 Corinthians. That is how subtle such division and carnality is, which causes much trouble in churches today. Come on Fran, grow up from that rudimentary status!
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
="mailmandan, post: 3742605, member: 193497"]In Hebrews 12:14, the NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.


I understand the Mainstream interpretation of this scripture. What I question is your understanding of the term "Made Holy". If I am laden with sins, I am not Holy. I can't be Holy. For the Christ to "make me Holy" He must first remove those sins. That is what atonement is all about. Once I have my past sins removed, I am "FREE" to SERVE GOD. The Bible does not teach that the Christ "Serves God" for me. That is man's religion, not God's.

Heb. 12:
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.

So if a man has been convinced that he is already immortal, and that the Christ is serving God for us, then these scriptures have no meaning. And if we follow religious man's definition of "Holy", while rejecting God's definition of Holy, are we serving God, or man?


Yet we also have progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, a remaining active pursuit in practical, progressive holiness, in regards to our ongoing sanctification.


So yes, Once your sins are forgiven we can now SERVE God by "ABSTAINING" from certain activities. Not activities created by some religious franchises or Mainstream religions, like forbidding to take a walk, or helping a brother on God's Holy Sabbath. But "ABSTAINING" from "actions, words, thoughts, attitudes and motives" which are "unholy" and "unrighteous" according to the Word of God which became Flesh.

What if you have been convinced that Sexual immortality is not a sin? What if your religion teaches that God doesn't care about your sexual preferences, that this definition of unrighteousness is no longer valid? Can you continue to practice this "iniquity"?

And who determines your definition of "practical, progressive Holiness"? How is Holiness "Progressive"? Is this the belief that Sexual immorality "used to be unholy" but now is? What about a different sin, stealing for instance. Shall a person "Abstain" from stealing? From hating your brother? From defiling God's Holy Sabbaths?

Heb. 12:
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.

So how does one serve God? By following ancient religious traditions of some religious franchise? Am I to just "omit" Word's of God because the Pope, or some other preach declares a more "Progressive" Holiness?

I know you "believe" in your religion Dan. Really, I have been there, right where you are. And I appreciate your willingness to have an honest discussion. But my questions are valid, and the Warnings of the Bible are real. Where do you come up with "Progressive Holiness" and "positional standing" in righteousness. The Bible as a whole doesn't support either IMO.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
="mailmandan, post: 3742605, member: 193497"]


*So without justification, there is no sanctification. Our ongoing sanctification has no bearing on our justification. That is, even if we don't reach entire sanctification/sinless perfection in this lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1).

In Hebrews 12:15, we read - See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God. The NASB reads - comes short of the grace of God.. The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. Not a loss of salvation here but a failure to obtain it.

Only those who have been saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9) qualify to serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

What about the deceived, the religious folks who "Believe" they are sanctified but are not? Have they fallen short of the Grace of God? And what if someone shows them the truth, but they choose their religion over it? When will they know the end of their choice? In "that day" yes? How can they be persuaded of their deception? Will the Word's of Christ convince them?

Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Who are these folks Dan? Are they not those who claim to know the God of Abraham?

In regards to the believer's ongoing sanctification, in Philippians 2:12, we read - Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. This verse often gets misinterpreted by works-salvationists to mean "work for" your salvation, yet works salvation is not being taught here. The idea is to progress towards the finish or completion in spiritual growth and maturity in the process of ongoing sanctification. It should be noted that Philippians 2:12 makes it clear we are to be active, not passive, in this process. However, though we are active, we are not alone.
This scripture agrees with every other scripture in the Bible, Old and New Testament. And no one is saying the Christ doesn't help those who He knows. But God's Word is the authority in my view. As it is written;

2 Tim. 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already (we are already saved, already immortal) and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. (Lawlessness)


Ex. 20: 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;


8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,707
3,641
113
Can people please expand their thoughts on the following

1 Corinthians 3:9-15
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

So does it apply to works or to what we teach?
Every post on here containing verses and an explanation is teaching.

So what is it?

If we teach crap yet as a result we are saved does it seem fair that those who walk the Christian life in that way would not be saved.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,259
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I know you "believe" in your religion Dan. Really, I have been there, right where you are . And I appreciate your willingness to have an honest discussion. But my questions are valid, and the Warnings of the Bible are real. Where do you come up with "Progressive Holiness" and "positional standing" in righteousness. The Bible as a whole doesn't support either IMO.
Wow this just boggles the mind. How vain can any one man be, you have never been where "Mailmandan has been", ever. How ungrateful and blind can you be when Mailmandan has presented the "True Gospel", and you discard it like an old pair of tennis shoes. Shame on you and whatever God has in store for you because of leading people astray with your "Junk theology", I pity you on judgement day.
 

Leaf

New member
Oct 24, 2018
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The blood of Jesus saves us but our works must follow into eternal life. So, a saved person WILL have works Jesus said. Otherwise, they're not saved. Paul reminds us to always be ready for every good work.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,707
3,641
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The blood of Jesus saves us but our works must follow into eternal life. So, a saved person WILL have works Jesus said. Otherwise, they're not saved. Paul reminds us to always be ready for every good work.
So what you are saying is that the blood of Jesus saves us but it is our works that will give us eternal life?

Have I misunderstood you?