Not By Works
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VCO when I have the Truth why would I look for false doctrine and errors. Evidently you think you are born again as a fleshly mortal man so I want none of that! Why would I put Gods Church out for you to try and tramp it underfoot? You would be much better off reading the Bible and believing what it says instead of reading all this pagan nonsense into the scriptures!
ok I found this after going back thru several pages. I answered it on some other pages already but there is no way I would ever go to a pagan church that thinks they are right and breaks Gods laws. You have disqualified yourselves according to the Bible.And I would not put my church up to your disrespect! YOUR HOLIER THAN THOU ATTITUDE SHOWS YOU ARE NOT FROM GOD! It took a while to,realize this and I am sorry for you when you do realize just how wrong you are!
Are you saying that we are saved by BOTH faith AND works? Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.
"Faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. A living tree and not a dead tree produces fruit, just as a living faith, not a dead faith produces works.
*James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he demonstrates that he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14-20)
*James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
"Faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. A living tree and not a dead tree produces fruit, just as a living faith, not a dead faith produces works.
*James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he demonstrates that he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14-20)
*James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
If we want salvation we do what God says and what James says is plain if you say you have faith you better have the works to prove it . Read the Bible it tells you what to do many works there,including keep the Commandments and if you dont then you dont love God. You really have to blot out a lot of scriptures to blot out Gods instructions and what He commands. But we have no righteousness of ourselves, what is produced in becoming more like God comes from the HS in us,from the mind of Christ in us.we grow overcome persevere and endure to the end thru Gods power which is the mind of Christ in us,nothing of our own ! But as we develop that Godly character in us we wiil carry that into the Kingdom of God when we are at the end of the salvation process and then we can truly say we are saved!
Asking you if you are a Mormon because you said by the laying on of hands we receive the Holy Spirit (which Mormons teach) is not calling you a name or acting non-Christian. By telling me where you attend church I can better pin point the source of where you get your doctrine. I myself attend a non-denominal Christian church. Are you really that worried about being attacked?
I've been attacked plenty of times on CC by those who don't agree with me, yet I still continue to preach the gospel.
I've been attacked plenty of times on CC by those who don't agree with me, yet I still continue to preach the gospel.
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Mormonism isn't Christianity sis. They don't get a pass simply because one may think they're sincere, or because they think they are as much a Christian as others. Their gospel is completely false and contrary to Scripture.
Dear Sister, do you not see that they are not true Christianity? Do you know what their teachings are, and they are not Biblical?
Certainly they come across as good moral people, but that is not conversion nor does it make them God's people. Their message is contrary to Scripture and their teachings stem from a counterfeit gospel and false book of mormon.
Dear Sister, do you not see that they are not true Christianity? Do you know what their teachings are, and they are not Biblical?
Certainly they come across as good moral people, but that is not conversion nor does it make them God's people. Their message is contrary to Scripture and their teachings stem from a counterfeit gospel and false book of mormon.
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As I already previously explained, receiving the Holy Spirit after receiving the laying on of hands is the exception in these cases (Acts 8:17; 19:6) and not the rule (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; Ephesians 1:13). Also, water baptism "follows" repent/believe/receive the Holy Spirit/salvation (Acts 10:43-47). If we "completely" yielded to God (in that sense), then we would be sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time. Believers yield to God, yet start out as babes in Christ and continue to grow towards spiritual maturity in Christ. This is the process of ongoing sanctification which has no bearing on justification. In other words, even if we don't live a sinless, without without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't - 1 John 1:8-10) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1). Those He justified will also be glorified (Romans 8:30). It clearly sounds to me like you are peddling salvation by works.
Actually, just the opposite is true, which is usually the result of confusing descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture and confusing justification with ongoing sanctification and the end result is salvation by works.
We show our faith by our works. (James 2:18) In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (ALREADY have come to know Him/are ALREADY saved - demonstrative evidence) if we keep (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. This is also the demonstrative evidence that we love God. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. The love of God has been poured out into the hearts of believers by the Holy Spirit who was given to them. (Romans 5:5)
I don't blot out scriptures, but at the same time, I don't confuse God's instructions and what He commands in regards to what His will is for us "in order to become saved" (John 6:40) with what His will is for us AFTER we have been saved (1 Thessalonians 5:14-18).
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get mixed up by works-salvationists:
1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)
We can truly say that we are saved NOW. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been (past tense, with ongoing present results) saved through faith. John 5:24 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Believers have just not yet received their glorified bodies. So salvation is not a process that is obtained and maintained by works.
1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
Actually, just the opposite is true, which is usually the result of confusing descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture and confusing justification with ongoing sanctification and the end result is salvation by works.
We show our faith by our works. (James 2:18) In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (ALREADY have come to know Him/are ALREADY saved - demonstrative evidence) if we keep (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. This is also the demonstrative evidence that we love God. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. The love of God has been poured out into the hearts of believers by the Holy Spirit who was given to them. (Romans 5:5)
I don't blot out scriptures, but at the same time, I don't confuse God's instructions and what He commands in regards to what His will is for us "in order to become saved" (John 6:40) with what His will is for us AFTER we have been saved (1 Thessalonians 5:14-18).
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get mixed up by works-salvationists:
1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)
We can truly say that we are saved NOW. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been (past tense, with ongoing present results) saved through faith. John 5:24 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Believers have just not yet received their glorified bodies. So salvation is not a process that is obtained and maintained by works.
1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
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The "object" of Faith is Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption. Romans 3:24 - Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
"Your idea" of "personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender" amounts to salvation by works, which is the only thing that the natural man can understand.
As I already explained to you in post #76,738, when we choose to believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation (Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8) we are entrusting our spiritual well being to Christ, along with placing confidence, trust and reliance upon Him for salvation. That would be a personal surrender to Him, resulting in justification (Romans 5:1) and is not merely a half truth.
The life inspired by such surrender which "follows" is the "fruit" of faith and is in regards to our ongoing sanctification. Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works which follow are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. (James 2:14-20) As I stated before. If you believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you.
This belief/faith results in actions appropriate to the belief/faith (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions/works are NOT INHERENT in the belief/faith. Your obsession with the Vine's definition of Pisteuo and your imaginary "faithing" delusion is keeping you from properly understanding what truly means to "Believe in Christ" unto salvation (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 4:5-6 etc..).
"Your idea" of "personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender" amounts to salvation by works, which is the only thing that the natural man can understand.
As I already explained to you in post #76,738, when we choose to believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation (Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8) we are entrusting our spiritual well being to Christ, along with placing confidence, trust and reliance upon Him for salvation. That would be a personal surrender to Him, resulting in justification (Romans 5:1) and is not merely a half truth.
The life inspired by such surrender which "follows" is the "fruit" of faith and is in regards to our ongoing sanctification. Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works which follow are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. (James 2:14-20) As I stated before. If you believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you.
This belief/faith results in actions appropriate to the belief/faith (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions/works are NOT INHERENT in the belief/faith. Your obsession with the Vine's definition of Pisteuo and your imaginary "faithing" delusion is keeping you from properly understanding what truly means to "Believe in Christ" unto salvation (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 4:5-6 etc..).
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It depends
Are you a baby christian? Are you a teenage Christian, Or are you a spiritually mature adult christian.
Because each phase will look different. As a child grows.. Even their capacity to understand is different, as paul told the corinthian church he could not yet feed them meat because they were still babes..
Being born again does not make people superchristians who no longer struggle with sins, or always do things right. When a person is born again, God starts a good work in them, And the thing we can all be assured of. He wh began that good work, WILL COMPLETE that work, Because he will continue to the day of Christ. He has perfected already those who he is continuing to sactify these are biblical truths..
Are you a baby christian? Are you a teenage Christian, Or are you a spiritually mature adult christian.
Because each phase will look different. As a child grows.. Even their capacity to understand is different, as paul told the corinthian church he could not yet feed them meat because they were still babes..
Being born again does not make people superchristians who no longer struggle with sins, or always do things right. When a person is born again, God starts a good work in them, And the thing we can all be assured of. He wh began that good work, WILL COMPLETE that work, Because he will continue to the day of Christ. He has perfected already those who he is continuing to sactify these are biblical truths..
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I totally hear what you're saying!
I've come to suspect that it's a matter of how different people's minds work.
In some cases, it's a simple matter of a single broad rule, love your neighbor as yourself.
But in some cases, people want it broken down more into more specific rules.
I think that's why we're not to judge each other, or put stumbling blocks in front of each other.
I've come to suspect that it's a matter of how different people's minds work.
In some cases, it's a simple matter of a single broad rule, love your neighbor as yourself.
But in some cases, people want it broken down more into more specific rules.
I think that's why we're not to judge each other, or put stumbling blocks in front of each other.