Not By Works

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Dec 12, 2013
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I do not agree. I also do not agree that "The prodigal son" is a story of a saved believer losing salvation and then regaining salvation.


If it is impossible to renew him to repentance......how did God take him "back"


what does that say about your words that there could be no more "further" salvation
Me neither....he was a son through the whole process and only perceived as dead though very much alive........
 
Dec 12, 2013
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I knew you'd say that.
How does Paul trump Clement?
Clement KNEW Paul and studied under him.

It was considered that Clement should be included in the N.T. and also some others.
Don't you know this???
Paul was inspired....Clement was not. Paul is a valid source of truth and Clement is not.........!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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No D,
I don't conflate Romans and James as many do.
The N.T. is perfectly reconciled for me. Paul taught what James taught what Jesus taught.
I see no difference.

Please note what you posted above:

WE CONCLUDE THAT MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT WORKS.


Right!

When did I EVER say this was not true?

We are justified by FAITH. I'm sure you've studied justification.

But then comes sanctification. That is an on-going process that lasts all our life.

If we abandon God...HOW will we continue to be sanctified?

2 Thessalonians 2:13
13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

We are saved through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. If we no longer have faith, HOW would the Holy Spirit continue to sanctify us??


2 Timothy 2:21
21
Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

This is what sancification is: Being set aside, made holy (same as sanctify) for God's good works.
How does a person who no longer wishes to serve the Lord stay sanctified?
Not hardly Fran....

Paul taught justification before God by faith ALONE

James makes the comparison between a mere belief in God as opposed to actual faith which can be seen by MEN....

You would do well to figure out and see the difference!
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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I do not agree. I also do not agree that "The prodigal son" is a story of a saved believer losing salvation and then regaining salvation.


If it is impossible to renew him to repentance......how did God take him "back"


what does that say about your words that there could be no more "further" salvation
Please explain what Hebrews 6:4-6 means to you.

As to the Prodigal Son...how could you not believe what JESUS said in His parable?

Luke 15:24
23and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;
24for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.And they began to celebrate.


He was a SON. I hear those on your side of the isle go on and on about the status of a Son....

so:
The SON was saved
then he became dead (as Jesus said)
then he came to live AGAIN (as Jesus said)

AGAIN means the son was saved BEFORE...
simple English.
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
No. Peter did not fall away.
He didn't mean it...he was just scared.

God sees the heart.
I agree that peter did not fall away.🙂


I also agree God sees the heart.

Please forgive me if I am incorrect in this assumption, but I bet you would also agree the only heart which does not deny Jesus and has a genuine faith in Him, is God given....



....do you believe if He has started a good work in someone.... He would at any point forsake them?

If so.....

when would His works in them not be enough to keep His own?
 
Dec 1, 2018
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You are conflating a true believers "position in Christ", which is Justification; with our "practice in Christ" which is our ongoing sanctification, "our daily walk with Jesus"

A works plus grace gospel is not supported by the bible neither did our Savior Jesus Christ teach salvation by works, "he who believes in Him is not condemned he who does not believe stands condemned already." (John3:18). If you think you are saved by good works, "justified by the law" you have "Fallen from Grace."

Good works are evidence of a true believer but they will not save you; we are saved "unto good works" not by them; a difficult lesson to learn for some.

God bless!
Phillipians3:9
and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.

Galatians5:4
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

John3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
I don't think you are reading what i wrote. I said works give evidence to our faith and that is exactly what they do. James makes this point "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. " Faith believes and acts. Faith is not some abstract belief. If you believe the stock market will crash tomorrow (and you really believe) you will sell all your stock. If you believe that a medicine has the potential to save you (and really believe) you take it. All judgments determining eternal destination that occur in the NT are based on works (John 5:29, . Look for yourself. Again I would not claim that is the basis of salvation but it testifies to how intricately faith and works are linked. It has often been said, we don't work for our salvation we work FROM our salvation. There is a difference. By misunderstanding what faith is in faith alone, we have a whole nation of Christians living in rebellion to God.

Consider for a moment the LOGIC of what you teach. If an intellectual belief devoid of consistent works is all that is required what you are saying logically is that one can live in as much sin as they desire and remain saved. If you claim that salvation devoid of works is possible (except in extreme cases), then you justify any behavior as being irrelevant to salvation. Do you really believe this is what the NT teaches?

We each have the choice to submit to the Holy Spirit or the sinful nature. The Holy Spirit helps guides us but does not control us. We must decide whether to submit to the Holy Spirit.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
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Paul was inspired....Clement was not. Paul is a valid source of truth and Clement is not.........!
Dcon,
Listen to me.
PAUL and CLEMENT agree with one another.

Didn't Paul tell us to do good works?
Didn't Paul tell us how to behave?
Do I have to post the verses AGAIN??
Romans 13:8................
1 Corinthians 5:9..................
Ephesians
Galatians,,,,,,etc.

And how do you explain
1 Corinthians 15:2

Paul states that we will be saved by the gospel IF WE HOLD FAST the word he preached to us.

Clement, Paul, and Jesus all agree.
There is only ONE N.T.
 
Dec 1, 2018
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Please explain what Hebrews 6:4-6 means to you.

As to the Prodigal Son...how could you not believe what JESUS said in His parable?

Luke 15:24
23and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;
24for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.And they began to celebrate.


He was a SON. I hear those on your side of the isle go on and on about the status of a Son....

so:
The SON was saved
then he became dead (as Jesus said)
then he came to live AGAIN (as Jesus said)

AGAIN means the son was saved BEFORE...
simple English.
Absolutely TRUE; the idea of the son relationship is another human creation designed to build on a false doctrine.
 
Dec 1, 2018
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Yes God called you. Now wi
To me that is an accusation made by non Christians say in ignorance. It speaks to the fact they have no understanding about Christianity.
Consider the LOGIC only for a minute. If nothing we do has any impact on our salvation once we accept Christ, then it makes no difference logically if we do good or live in sin. This is what most teach. It is errant.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Not hardly Fran....

Paul taught justification before God by faith ALONE

James makes the comparison between a mere belief in God as opposed to actual faith which can be seen by MEN....

You would do well to figure out and see the difference!
James does no such thing.
It's another one of our modern understandings.
Trouble is, God does not change. He's the same God that spoke in the O.T.

You just don't care for the message of James.
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

Dead means it doesn't exist...
Dead means it's worhless...
Dead means DEAD.

It doesn't mean something men see but God doesn't see or whatever I hear these days.
James is very clear in his teaching because He KNEW our Lord and KNEW what Jesus taught for over three years.

And it's not what is being taught today.

I wish you'd study the early theologians.
Do you suppose Christianity was stupid until the reformation or a couple of hundred years ago?
It wasn't.
 
Dec 1, 2018
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Dcon,
Listen to me.
PAUL and CLEMENT agree with one another.

Didn't Paul tell us to do good works?
Didn't Paul tell us how to behave?
Do I have to post the verses AGAIN??
Romans 13:8................
1 Corinthians 5:9..................
Ephesians
Galatians,,,,,,etc.

And how do you explain
1 Corinthians 15:2

Paul states that we will be saved by the gospel IF WE HOLD FAST the word he preached to us.

Clement, Paul, and Jesus all agree.
There is only ONE N.T.
Consider John 15:1-6 and Romans 11:11-24 as well.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Absolutely TRUE; the idea of the son relationship is another human creation designed to build on a false doctrine.
Yes. Absolutely. Too many modern creations.
Unheard of from the beginning of Christianity.
The message was so simple,,,but man has complicated it to the point that it's hardly recognizable.
 
Dec 1, 2018
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You are conflating a true believers "position in Christ", which is Justification; with our "practice in Christ" which is our ongoing sanctification, "our daily walk with Jesus"

A works plus grace gospel is not supported by the bible neither did our Savior Jesus Christ teach salvation by works, "he who believes in Him is not condemned he who does not believe stands condemned already." (John3:18). If you think you are saved by good works, "justified by the law" you have "Fallen from Grace."

Good works are evidence of a true believer but they will not save you; we are saved "unto good works" not by them; a difficult lesson to learn for some.

God bless!
Phillipians3:9
and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.

Galatians5:4
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

John3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
maybe this will help. belief without seeking to do the will of God is unbelief. this will help you with the other passages.....
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
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The FREE GIFT of God is His only begotten Son Jesus Christ.
(Romans 6:23, revelations 22:17)

For God so loved the world that HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have ETERNAL LIFE. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.” John 3:16-21


...Now THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE: THAT THEY MAY KNOW YOU, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. John 17:3


Then John said;


...WE KNOW THAT WE HAVE COME TO KNOW HIM IF WE OBEY HIS COMMANDS. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a LIAR, and THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know WE ARE IN HIM: Whoever CLAIMS to live in him MUST WALK as Jesus did.


WE CAN BE IN JESUS IF WE OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS. HE IS THE LIFE THAT WE MUST ENTER IN. (john 14:6)... ETERNAL LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS. (Romans 6:23)


...If you want TO ENTER LIFE, obey the commandments.” matthew 19:17


...Although he was a son, HE LEARNED OBEDIENCE FROM WHAT HE SUFFERED hebrews 5:8


...To this you were called, because Christ SUFFERED for you, LEAVING YOU AN EXAMPLE, that YOU SHOULD FOLLOW IN HIS STEPS. 1 Peter 2:21


...For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ NOT ONLY TO BELIEVE IN HIM, but also TO SUFFER FOR HIM, Philippians 1:29


Those who truly believes in the Son of God loves the light and Jesus is the LIGHT of the world.

Whoever loves Jesus stays in the light and OBEYS His commands. Whoever does not OBEY His commands hates the LIGHT. Whoever hates the LIGHT, hates God. Whoever hates God are enemies of God.


...THEY STUMBLE BECAUSE THEY DISOBEY THE MESSAGE—which is also what they were destined for. 1 Peter 2:8


...As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are IRREVOCABLE. Romans 11:28-29


Paul was talking here about GOD'S calling and gifts to Israel.

...the people of Israel. THEIRS is the adoption as sons; THEIRS the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. THEIRS are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. Romans 9:4-5

...This is IRREVOCABLE.


But what did he say to the Gentiles?


...I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, DO NOT BOAST OVER THOSE BRANCHES. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. DO NOT BE ARROGANT, BUT BE AFRAID. For if God did not spare the natural branches, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, PROVIDED that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! Romans 11:13-24
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Please explain what Hebrews 6:4-6 means to you.

As to the Prodigal Son...how could you not believe what JESUS said in His parable?

Luke 15:24
23and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;
24for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.And they began to celebrate.


He was a SON. I hear those on your side of the isle go on and on about the status of a Son....

so:
The SON was saved
then he became dead (as Jesus said)
then he came to live AGAIN (as Jesus said)

AGAIN means the son was saved BEFORE...
simple English.
Jesus did not say that....the reference is from a man that ASSUMED his son was dead when in fact he was very much alive and only perceived as dead.....the same happened unto me....I moved away for 9 years and when I came back several people thought I was dead because I disappeared one day and no one knew where I had went or gone and they ASSUMED I WAS DEAD.....such is the case with the prodigal....and the Cainologists and workers for that believe salvation can be lost love to use the Prodigal as a go to verse to try and prove something that it does not say or teach!!
 
Dec 1, 2018
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Yes I agree

True faith WILL produce works.

1. You do not say you trust someone and NEVER do what they say
2. You do not learn that the person you trust is ALWAYS trustworthy (because he never fails you and when ever you obey good things happen) only to stop trusting that person
3. Most importantly. Once we have faith, we are saved, anbd born again, and given the power of the HS to do good. Because we have experienced Gods love (we love because God loves us)
4. WHat is the basis of obedience? Love

5. So you can not claim a person who had true saving faith and experienced Gods true love many times, will just give that faith up and walk away in unbelief, It does not happen. It only happens when we trust humans, who continually fail us, and because of this, our faith is destroyed.
Amen; agree completely..........Praise God!
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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Dcon,
Listen to me.
PAUL and CLEMENT agree with one another.

Didn't Paul tell us to do good works?
Didn't Paul tell us how to behave?
Do I have to post the verses AGAIN??
Romans 13:8................
1 Corinthians 5:9..................
Ephesians
Galatians,,,,,,etc.

And how do you explain
1 Corinthians 15:2

Paul states that we will be saved by the gospel IF WE HOLD FAST the word he preached to us.

Clement, Paul, and Jesus all agree.
There is only ONE N.T.
Paul did not teach a works based or kept salvation...........