Not By Works

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Mar 14, 2011
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I'm not going to argue with you.
Is paper made from trees? How does one argue with that?

Find out about gnosticism and how John was fighting it tooth and nail and how he wrote about it many times, not just this one time.
So if a gnostic claimed to be part of the church and now is an antichrist, He was never saved.

But if a non gnostic did the same thing, he lost salvation.

How can someone argue with you. If you think this is true. You can just throw half the bible out. If you think this.

I know about gnositicism I also know about phariseeism, And I know we have people today who may not be those two groups. But they have the same issues, the bible would relate to them also.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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You CANNOT do good enough.
What does that have to do with anything?

You just stated above that it's not necessary to obey God.
I did, where? Please show where I stated this.
[/quote]Are we not supposed to?
I sure hope you don't mean what you posted.[/QUOTE]

I think you need to reread what I posted. I never said r insinuated such.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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I agree that peter did not fall away.🙂


I also agree God sees the heart.

Please forgive me if I am incorrect in this assumption, but I bet you would also agree the only heart which does not deny Jesus and has a genuine faith in Him, is God given....



....do you believe if He has started a good work in someone.... He would at any point forsake them?

If so.....

when would His works in them not be enough to keep His own?
About God giving us a genuine faith...
The way you word it sounds a little calvinistic to me.
I believe that God reveals Himself to us and then it's up to us to respond to His call and accept His conditions. The condition is Belief. Belief includes living for Him which incl works,,,however you want to understand that.

I don't believe God would ever forsake anyone.
It's WE who forsake HIM by leaving the faith...abandoning God.
No longer wanting to live for Him...etc.

I tire with the question about how many good works are needed to keep saved.
I tire with hearing that God does everything through us.

Let me ask you this: How much faith is required to keep on being saved?
see. It's a silly question. I don't feel I do enough for God, but I don't feel lost.
We do what we can. We're His hands and feet...He's not coming down here to help our neighbor (in a material way).

I'd post 2 Timothy 2:12-13 but that would start a whole new argument.

God denies NO ONE.
The person denies HIM. At this point, salvation is lost. How else could it be??
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
Please explain what Hebrews 6:4-6 means to you.

As to the Prodigal Son...how could you not believe what JESUS said in His parable?

Luke 15:24
23and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;
24for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.And they began to celebrate.


He was a SON. I hear those on your side of the isle go on and on about the status of a Son....

so:
The SON was saved
then he became dead (as Jesus said)
then he came to live AGAIN (as Jesus said)

AGAIN means the son was saved BEFORE...
simple English.

hebrews 6: 4-6
in the shortest amount of words is saying

It is impossible to be saved or made new twice.... (born again, again)

as for the son

Jesus is telling the whole story
lol
Jesus said the father referred to his son as dead in that instance, who was not really dead
(pretty sure in those cultures back then it was common for heads of "noble" houses to disown their children who brought such shame to the point of throwing funerals... but even if im wrong the son was never truely dead)

the feeding un-kosher swine and being poor after his horrible actions is like a saved believer walking as a sinner and hitting rock bottom reaping what hes sown

not losing salvation
 
Dec 12, 2013
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James does no such thing.
It's another one of our modern understandings.
Trouble is, God does not change. He's the same God that spoke in the O.T.

You just don't care for the message of James.
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

Dead means it doesn't exist...
Dead means it's worhless...
Dead means DEAD.

It doesn't mean something men see but God doesn't see or whatever I hear these days.
James is very clear in his teaching because He KNEW our Lord and KNEW what Jesus taught for over three years.

And it's not what is being taught today.

I wish you'd study the early theologians.
Do you suppose Christianity was stupid until the reformation or a couple of hundred years ago?
It wasn't.
See.....as always you cannot deal with the facts and resort to accusations and mouthy remarks with no value...and my statement about James is valid....

The devils believe and tremble <--is this saving faith NO..BUT A BELIEF in God because they KNOW he is real

Show ME YOUR FAITH <--is this before GOD OR A MAN

James concludes that SAVING FAITH CAN BE SEEN BY MEN by What men do...NOT that what men DO HELPS SAVE THEM OR KEEP THEM SAVED....

The contrast, written to JEWS is between a belief in GOD which they to this day have and FAITH INTO CHRIST which to this day MOST DO NOT HAVE....

Wake up Fran.....!
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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hebrews 6: 4-6
in the shortest amount of words is saying

It is impossible to be saved or made new twice....

as for the son

Jesus is telling the whole story
lol
Jesus said the father referred to his son as dead in that instance, who was not really dead
(pretty sure in those cultures back then it was common for heads of "noble" houses to disown their children who brought such shame to the point of throwing funerals... but even if im wrong the son was never truely dead)

the feeding un-kosher swine and being poor after his horrible actions is like a saved believer walking as a sinner and hitting rock bottom reaping what hes sown

not losing salvation
JESUS said the PS was lost....not me.

I think we need to start reading our bible and paying attention and not listen to preachers that have a bone to pick with the N.T.
 
P

Pisteuo

Guest
These brothers & sisters of mine who walk with our LORD guided me when my own ideas were leading me astray , they have lifted me up by God's grace as a brother or sister in Christ should do...
I humbled myself to Almighty God and found in His word that these brothers and sisters of mine had led me correctly...
I am studying the Word of God , and I know the difference from one who leads , and one who stumbles , I think you need a pair of hobnail boots...
Their self taught Rosemary !

Just don't blame God for not giving you the opportunity you've rejected .
 
Dec 1, 2018
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This is another lie, See you sound just like that person who was banned long ago.

Just so you know. Teaching obedience is not considered works. You will not find one person here in CC or in any christian church that I have ever seen say this.

Teaching OBEDIENCE PROCURES or MAINTAINS SALVATION is considered works.

So if your going to make accusations against people. At least get it right. Otherwise you will just be another person who came in punching but quickly faded out because you can not humble yourself to the point you stop following what you have been taught (yes, far to many people make this same lie to say it is not a taught or learned response) and actually sit for a time and understand what is the truth about what people REALLY SAY
How is this a lie? Now you have confused me. The Modern Church teaches that nothing you as a human can do affects your salvation, correct? Hence calling someone to live faithfully is irrelevant. Calling someone to obedience is irrelevant. Where did i err?
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
JESUS said the PS was lost....not me.

I think we need to start reading our bible and paying attention and not listen to preachers that have a bone to pick with the N.T.


lol

c'mon now
I read my bible plenty and am correct in what I said.

Maybe it makes you feel better to imagine people who disagree with what you believe don't read the bible.... but it just isn't the case...

(you're holding on to false understanding.... was the son in the story ever dead as his father implied in his story?)
 
Dec 1, 2018
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Yes I agree

True faith WILL produce works.

1. You do not say you trust someone and NEVER do what they say
2. You do not learn that the person you trust is ALWAYS trustworthy (because he never fails you and when ever you obey good things happen) only to stop trusting that person
3. Most importantly. Once we have faith, we are saved, anbd born again, and given the power of the HS to do good. Because we have experienced Gods love (we love because God loves us)
4. WHat is the basis of obedience? Love

5. So you can not claim a person who had true saving faith and experienced Gods true love many times, will just give that faith up and walk away in unbelief, It does not happen. It only happens when we trust humans, who continually fail us, and because of this, our faith is destroyed.
I apologize. We agree on the first 4 points completely. The last point is more dicey. Are you familiar with Dan Barker? You may want to look him up. Same comment with the Prodigal son.......
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
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I agree that peter did not fall away.🙂


I also agree God sees the heart.

Please forgive me if I am incorrect in this assumption, but I bet you would also agree the only heart which does not deny Jesus and has a genuine faith in Him, is God given....



....do you believe if He has started a good work in someone.... He would at any point forsake them?

If so.....

when would His works in them not be enough to keep His own?
The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.


These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)


...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13


...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2


How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?


..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.


...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...
Genesis 3:1‭-‬19

Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.

The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.

Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why resist them?

So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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See.....as always you cannot deal with the facts and resort to accusations and mouthy remarks with no value...and my statement about James is valid....

The devils believe and tremble <--is this saving faith NO..BUT A BELIEF in God because they KNOW he is real

Show ME YOUR FAITH <--is this before GOD OR A MAN

James concludes that SAVING FAITH CAN BE SEEN BY MEN by What men do...NOT that what men DO HELPS SAVE THEM OR KEEP THEM SAVED....

The contrast, written to JEWS is between a belief in GOD which they to this day have and FAITH INTO CHRIST which to this day MOST DO NOT HAVE....

Wake up Fran.....!
Which mouthy remark?
I'm never mouthy....
I accept your apology.
:)

I'm trying to understand about James. I learn quick. It can't be this difficult....

James 2:14-26 Let's do this.

14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.


18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.


Verse 14 James is asking if faith ALONE can save

verse 15, 16 It's no use to tell a neighbor you're just sorry for them,,,you have to DO something for them

verse 17 The person in 15, 16 had faith but no works. It was DEAD because it was standing alone with no works.

verse 18 You have faith and I have works
James wants someone to show him their FAITH WITHOUT WORKS
and James will show them HIS faith BY HIS WORKS.


IOW, FAITH PRODUCES WORKS.
No works.
No faith.


verse 19 even the demons believe and shudder -

verse 20 James is saying that someone that does not understand that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS is foolish!

verse 21 Abraham was justified by works...the offering of Isaac

verse 22 Faith was working WITH works, as a RESULT OF THE WORKS, faith was PERFECTED.
(because faith without works is dead).


verse 23 Believing in God is reckoned to us as righteousness....Trusting God,,,doing what He says.

verse 24 A man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.

(because faith by itself is alone and not worth anything...not to a needy neighbor as in verses 15,16, and not to God).


Conclusion: Faith without works is useless, and this is what James was teaching...
The same as Paul, and Jesus.


Now, it's your turn.
Exegete.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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I did, where? Please show where I stated this.
Are we not supposed to?
I sure hope you don't mean what you posted.[/QUOTE]

I think you need to reread what I posted. I never said r insinuated such. [/QUOTE]
Here's what you stated in post no. 77,919:

You know what is interesting.

You have the same gospel they do. Do good. Obey god (allah) , Follow his commands. And you might get to heaven.

True christianity is nothing like that. True christianity is God saying You can not do good enough or any amount of work to save yourself. So I will come save you.


If you reread the above, you'll find that you're being sarcastic about obeying god (allah), following His commands and we MIGHT get to heaven. Which, if one were reading this, would understand that obeying and following commands is not necessary.

Actually, it's what we have to do.

 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
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Jesus did not say that....the reference is from a man that ASSUMED his son was dead when in fact he was very much alive and only perceived as dead.....the same happened unto me....I moved away for 9 years and when I came back several people thought I was dead because I disappeared one day and no one knew where I had went or gone and they ASSUMED I WAS DEAD.....such is the case with the prodigal....and the Cainologists and workers for that believe salvation can be lost love to use the Prodigal as a go to verse to try and prove something that it does not say or teach!!
Please don't say you just said this!
I might have to log off after this!
:confused:

JESUS DID NOT SAY THAT!!!
Really. WHO said it?

Was it not a parable of Jesus?
Didn't He know what He wanted to transmit?

Second of all, parable were parables...they were not real stories.
WHAT MAN are you talking about?
There was no prodigal son. The only real story that Jesus told was Luke 16 about Hades.

The son wasn't REALLY dead,,, he was "as if" dead.

Come on Dcon...you're better than this.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
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lol

c'mon now
I read my bible plenty and am correct in what I said.

Maybe it makes you feel better to imagine people who disagree with what you believe don't read the bible.... but it just isn't the case...

(you're holding on to false understanding.... was the son in the story ever dead as his father implied in his story?)
I have to leave Noname.
The son was NEVER DEAD.
He left his home...the father knew he wasn't dead.
The father gave him his inheritance.
Do you know how much was his inheritance?
2/3 and the younger son got 1/3.
There was no funeral because the son wasn't dead.
Also, the father NEVER disowned him.
This story reflects what Jesus was teaching about our Father in heaven...God.
Please read it again keeping this in mind.

I used to teach the Prodigal Son. I know I'm right.
Check some commentaries....do something!
 
Dec 1, 2018
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Jesus did not say that....the reference is from a man that ASSUMED his son was dead when in fact he was very much alive and only perceived as dead.....the same happened unto me....I moved away for 9 years and when I came back several people thought I was dead because I disappeared one day and no one knew where I had went or gone and they ASSUMED I WAS DEAD.....such is the case with the prodigal....and the Cainologists and workers for that believe salvation can be lost love to use the Prodigal as a go to verse to try and prove something that it does not say or teach!!
it seems you are reading into it and ignoring the plain meaning. he was dead and ALIVE AGAIN. he didn't say he may be dead. If the father really is God in the parable HE knew the son was not physically dead. it also states he was lost. lookup the underlying Greek. Lost does not mean dead.