Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
N
Good morning all...This is the day the LORD has made , let us rejoice and be glad in it...
john 5:24
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
-
7
-
1
-
1
- Show all
="dcontroversal, post: 3797659, member: 183444"]
Abraham was given instruction from God and obeyed. Adam was given instruction by God and rejected it. Adam was cursed, Abraham was Blessed. Adam failed because he didn't believe in the Word's of God. Abraham had victory because he believed in the Word's of God. Why would you omit these truths from your religion.
Abel offed his works as well. His works were "righteous" while Cain's were not. Abel's "works" were accepted, Cain's were not. Why would you "omit" this part in your sermon?
The Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time did not "Adhere" to the Commandments of God. You preach they did, the Pope preaches they did, "many" Ministers of Righteousness" in the religions of the land preach they did. But if you listen to Jesus and EVERY WORD He spoke regarding them, and if you listen to the Word of God, and the Prophesies therein, you will find that the Pharisees did not "Adhere" to God's Commandments, rather, they created their own religion and "omitted" much of God's Word. They claimed to be God's Children, they claimed to further His Laws, but Jesus very clearly said and demonstrated over and over that they didn't. Why would you "omit" this truth from your preaching?
So your assertion that they "believed in their own works and traditions" is true. But your preaching that they adhered to God's Commandments is a lie. Zechariahs "adhered" to God's Commandments, the Pharisees did not. Abraham adhered to God's Commandments, the Pharisees did not. You might consider why Zechariahs and Abraham knew Jesus when He came, but the Pharisees didn't.
Faith, without Works attached, is dead faith and will not save you. That is God's preaching from Abel to Noah, from Abraham to Stephen. Man can either do the works God foreordained that we should walk in them, as He instructs, as EVERY example of Faith in the Bible did. Or they can create their own religious works as did Cain and the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time, the Pharisees did. The choice is there given by the Christ from the very beginning as it is written.
"It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe".
Not the preaching of falsehoods, not a religion which "omits" so much of God's Word. But "preaching" as the author of my Faith defines.
"Man shall "LIVE BY" EVERY Word which proceeds from the mouth of God"
Abel offed his works as well. His works were "righteous" while Cain's were not. Abel's "works" were accepted, Cain's were not. Why would you "omit" this part in your sermon?
The Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time did not "Adhere" to the Commandments of God. You preach they did, the Pope preaches they did, "many" Ministers of Righteousness" in the religions of the land preach they did. But if you listen to Jesus and EVERY WORD He spoke regarding them, and if you listen to the Word of God, and the Prophesies therein, you will find that the Pharisees did not "Adhere" to God's Commandments, rather, they created their own religion and "omitted" much of God's Word. They claimed to be God's Children, they claimed to further His Laws, but Jesus very clearly said and demonstrated over and over that they didn't. Why would you "omit" this truth from your preaching?
So your assertion that they "believed in their own works and traditions" is true. But your preaching that they adhered to God's Commandments is a lie. Zechariahs "adhered" to God's Commandments, the Pharisees did not. Abraham adhered to God's Commandments, the Pharisees did not. You might consider why Zechariahs and Abraham knew Jesus when He came, but the Pharisees didn't.
Faith, without Works attached, is dead faith and will not save you. That is God's preaching from Abel to Noah, from Abraham to Stephen. Man can either do the works God foreordained that we should walk in them, as He instructs, as EVERY example of Faith in the Bible did. Or they can create their own religious works as did Cain and the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time, the Pharisees did. The choice is there given by the Christ from the very beginning as it is written.
"It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe".
Not the preaching of falsehoods, not a religion which "omits" so much of God's Word. But "preaching" as the author of my Faith defines.
"Man shall "LIVE BY" EVERY Word which proceeds from the mouth of God"
-
1
- Show all
E
1st off. If your going to respond by not using quotes and just respond in a different color. Thats fine But know that when the person tries to respond to you. They are missing all of your post, the only thing visible is your LAST comment after the end quote is used. Lkcily we can copy and past. Or I would not be able to respond.
Yeah actually you are justifying evil by claiming your evil (sin) is somehow ok. While other people evil (sin) is not ok. How you can sin your sins and still get to heaven but they can not.
As for your little bit of grace and little bit of works?? I will let paul answer you.
Romans 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work
Mixing works and grace is like mixing oil and water, they do not mix. It is either one way or the other. You can not have both ways.
Works is a BYPRODUCT of grace. But SALVATION is WHOLLY of grace.
Again, I re-iterate, You need to study the term grace. You are almost there but not quite.
Anything you do to EARN a reward. A wage or anything at all. Is called salvation by works. Or washing yourself.
Jesus washed me, as shown again by paul (no wonder people hate paul so much)
Titus 3: 5, NOT by works of righteousness which I HAVE DONE (one could add are doing or will do) HE SAVED ME (A completed action) By the washing and regeneration of the HS.
You can walk in the spirit all you want (or say you are) if your spirit has not been made completely clean (jesus said this is done by the WORD) your walking in self righteousness. And trying to earn salvation by that walk. Good luck with that..
So instead you want pteachers to teach works, and reject grace. And place people under law (the penalty of sin is death) instead of preaching the one thing which empowers christian growth (the knowledge we HAVE eternal life. Not trying to EARN it like your trying to preach) And you are willing to excuse your sins (water down the law) by saying your sins are not bad. But if people go out and commit adultry (king david) or murder) King David, Moses, and many others) that they will go to hell.
Once again, I will let an apostle show you the way.
James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guiltyof all
You see, you can continue to preach obedience, and continue to preach our salvation is dependent on it. But you better be able to live up to its standard. If you break even one part of the law. No matter hw small or inconsiquential you think that sin is. Your just as guilty as the murderers you wish to condemn.
But if it makes you feel better about yourself. Then so be it.
Me I will preach grace, forgiveness. And the power of healing. Which is the ONLY way those people you HATE will have any power over their sin..Even to people like you who thibnk their sin does not stink.
1. Salvation is by grace through faith not works (eph 2)
2. Salvation is by Gods mercy, not by any work I ever did, am doing or will do (titus 3)
3. Salvation (justification) is by faith in thbe work of God.
4. Whoever believes in Jesus will never hunger, never thirst, live forever, Never die, Has eternl life and will be risen on the last day oh, and never be lost! (John 6)
5. repent and believe (muliptle)
6. Call out on the name of the lord, in faith (romans 10 - see tax collector as an example, who went home justified, while the religious person who thought he was saved by his WORKS and how good he was, and judged the tax collector did not)
The RESULT of salvation is works (eph 2: 10) as experenced by many examples in scripture (heb 11) but is a process, called sanctification. Which scripture says, He who negan that good work (God) Will complete it until the day of Christ (phil 1:6 and I can be confident of that thing (unless I believe my works are required to maintain salvation, in which case I have NO CONFIDENCE that God wll do what he promised my confidence thus resides in self.
If its not a fact. I have no means of encouragement, I am only left with desipair and continually trying to work to finish the work myself. Or lie to myself and say I am ok, because I do not commit these grossly evil sins (see pharisee) And it says specifically, He WILL COMPLETE it UNTIL the day of christ, He does not say he WILL complete only as long as we do works. Or do not do these sins, or whatever you are trying to add to the verse. Nice try though
Again, I till let scripture speak for me
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
I am perfected forever. At the same time, I am continuing the process. And will continue until the day I am removed from this earth (the day of Christ) at which time I will be glorified..
You keep watering down the law and thinking your righteous.. God will let you know how that is going for you one day.
Yeah actually you are justifying evil by claiming your evil (sin) is somehow ok. While other people evil (sin) is not ok. How you can sin your sins and still get to heaven but they can not.
As for your little bit of grace and little bit of works?? I will let paul answer you.
Romans 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work
Mixing works and grace is like mixing oil and water, they do not mix. It is either one way or the other. You can not have both ways.
Works is a BYPRODUCT of grace. But SALVATION is WHOLLY of grace.
Again, I re-iterate, You need to study the term grace. You are almost there but not quite.
Anything you do to EARN a reward. A wage or anything at all. Is called salvation by works. Or washing yourself.
Jesus washed me, as shown again by paul (no wonder people hate paul so much)
Titus 3: 5, NOT by works of righteousness which I HAVE DONE (one could add are doing or will do) HE SAVED ME (A completed action) By the washing and regeneration of the HS.
You can walk in the spirit all you want (or say you are) if your spirit has not been made completely clean (jesus said this is done by the WORD) your walking in self righteousness. And trying to earn salvation by that walk. Good luck with that..
So instead you want pteachers to teach works, and reject grace. And place people under law (the penalty of sin is death) instead of preaching the one thing which empowers christian growth (the knowledge we HAVE eternal life. Not trying to EARN it like your trying to preach) And you are willing to excuse your sins (water down the law) by saying your sins are not bad. But if people go out and commit adultry (king david) or murder) King David, Moses, and many others) that they will go to hell.
Once again, I will let an apostle show you the way.
James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guiltyof all
You see, you can continue to preach obedience, and continue to preach our salvation is dependent on it. But you better be able to live up to its standard. If you break even one part of the law. No matter hw small or inconsiquential you think that sin is. Your just as guilty as the murderers you wish to condemn.
But if it makes you feel better about yourself. Then so be it.
Me I will preach grace, forgiveness. And the power of healing. Which is the ONLY way those people you HATE will have any power over their sin..Even to people like you who thibnk their sin does not stink.
1. Salvation is by grace through faith not works (eph 2)
2. Salvation is by Gods mercy, not by any work I ever did, am doing or will do (titus 3)
3. Salvation (justification) is by faith in thbe work of God.
4. Whoever believes in Jesus will never hunger, never thirst, live forever, Never die, Has eternl life and will be risen on the last day oh, and never be lost! (John 6)
5. repent and believe (muliptle)
6. Call out on the name of the lord, in faith (romans 10 - see tax collector as an example, who went home justified, while the religious person who thought he was saved by his WORKS and how good he was, and judged the tax collector did not)
The RESULT of salvation is works (eph 2: 10) as experenced by many examples in scripture (heb 11) but is a process, called sanctification. Which scripture says, He who negan that good work (God) Will complete it until the day of Christ (phil 1:6 and I can be confident of that thing (unless I believe my works are required to maintain salvation, in which case I have NO CONFIDENCE that God wll do what he promised my confidence thus resides in self.
If its not a fact. I have no means of encouragement, I am only left with desipair and continually trying to work to finish the work myself. Or lie to myself and say I am ok, because I do not commit these grossly evil sins (see pharisee) And it says specifically, He WILL COMPLETE it UNTIL the day of christ, He does not say he WILL complete only as long as we do works. Or do not do these sins, or whatever you are trying to add to the verse. Nice try though
Again, I till let scripture speak for me
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
I am perfected forever. At the same time, I am continuing the process. And will continue until the day I am removed from this earth (the day of Christ) at which time I will be glorified..
You keep watering down the law and thinking your righteous.. God will let you know how that is going for you one day.
-
6
- Show all
E
Just to answer directly
Moses declaired we must be perfect or be under a curse
Paul reiterated it, and showed how NO ONE can be justified based on how good they are
James said if we obey ever command, but commit one sin, we are guilty of that law
So no one living on earth is living a life which is good enough to earn them salvation.
Some of us live with this knowledge, and out of gratitude continue to walk and ask God to continue to grow them
Others use it as an excuse to get out of jail free (licentiousness) which case these people never repented. Or had faith, thus are not saved
Yet others take it, and water this STANDARD down to a level where they can fulfill it. Then yell at the firs group saying they are justifying sin, when in reality, it is THEM who are justifying their own sin, By saying these sins are not so severe that they will lose salvation.
I know which group I am in, I think the whole room knows what group you are in. Sadly, I do not think you understand what group you are in.
Moses declaired we must be perfect or be under a curse
Paul reiterated it, and showed how NO ONE can be justified based on how good they are
James said if we obey ever command, but commit one sin, we are guilty of that law
So no one living on earth is living a life which is good enough to earn them salvation.
Some of us live with this knowledge, and out of gratitude continue to walk and ask God to continue to grow them
Others use it as an excuse to get out of jail free (licentiousness) which case these people never repented. Or had faith, thus are not saved
Yet others take it, and water this STANDARD down to a level where they can fulfill it. Then yell at the firs group saying they are justifying sin, when in reality, it is THEM who are justifying their own sin, By saying these sins are not so severe that they will lose salvation.
I know which group I am in, I think the whole room knows what group you are in. Sadly, I do not think you understand what group you are in.
-
3
- Show all
that is the key- they try to humanize God. they think God is 100 and they are about a 92.
guess they never read " as high as the heavens are above the earth are God's thoughts and ways higher than hours.
some these guys should try reading the Bible sometimes. fascinating stuff in there.
guess they never read " as high as the heavens are above the earth are God's thoughts and ways higher than hours.
some these guys should try reading the Bible sometimes. fascinating stuff in there.
-
5
- Show all
E
Thats one way to see a person who is spoon fed and not actually believing in himself what is taught in scripture. It is always an Us (rome, catholic, arminian etc etc) vs them (Calvin, baptist, etc etc) debate, so they can nto actually see what oothers believe, they read them through these glasses which are tainted by what they are taught others believe, not by what the people actually believe. So they never understand, and always say things which proves they have no idea what the other person is even saying, let alne what they believe.
-
4
- Show all
E
We love because HE (God) LOved us first.
Until we experince Gods true Love the moment he removes the penalty of sin and makes us alive in him, forgiving us all things, and making us his children. We have no capacity to love (real true agape love)
Rules and regulations do not teach us love, They teach us how to figure out how we can excuse the sins we like, and make ourselves look good, and how to attack people who do not follow or live up to that standard.
Until we experince Gods true Love the moment he removes the penalty of sin and makes us alive in him, forgiving us all things, and making us his children. We have no capacity to love (real true agape love)
Rules and regulations do not teach us love, They teach us how to figure out how we can excuse the sins we like, and make ourselves look good, and how to attack people who do not follow or live up to that standard.
-
5
- Show all
E
Faith, A confident assurace, A hope which you KNOW will be fulfilled. A substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Cmes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
If one does not have any of these things, they do nto have faith, they have mwere belief, and as James said, even demons believe what good does it do them?
If one does not have any of these things, they do nto have faith, they have mwere belief, and as James said, even demons believe what good does it do them?
-
3
- Show all
Romans 4 "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
that's what God counted as righteousness
Romans 4: 23. Now it was not written that it was accounted to him for his sake alone, 24. but for us also, to whom it will be accounted,
we who believe in him who raised Jesus, our Lord, from the dead.
are there any rules for us to fulfill?
yes, all of them.
The whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
that's what God counted as righteousness
Romans 4: 23. Now it was not written that it was accounted to him for his sake alone, 24. but for us also, to whom it will be accounted,
we who believe in him who raised Jesus, our Lord, from the dead.
are there any rules for us to fulfill?
yes, all of them.
The whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
-
3
- Show all
E
