Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
46,144
20,066
113
Hey brother, I tend to think the "many" called really does mean "all".

The use of many to mean all is unmistakable in Romans in several places:

15 But the free gift is not like the [e]offense. For if by the one man’s offense MANY died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

19 For as by one man’s disobedience MANY were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

Certainly in both places here the word MANY MUST mean ALL.
Well......I can think of exceptions.....

All babies that die at birth NEVER SINNED

Paul said that when the law came SIN REVIVED AND HE DIED....he was alive physically when he wrote that

David said he would go to and see his 1 week old dead son when he died

I do not believe that many = all.....

polus: much, many
Original Word: πολύς, πολλή, πολύ
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: polus
Phonetic Spelling: (pol-oos')
Definition: much, many
Usage: much, many; often.

pas: all, every
Original Word: πᾶς, πᾶσα, πᾶν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pas
Phonetic Spelling: (pas)
Definition: all, every
Usage: all, the whole, every kind of.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
46,144
20,066
113
Hi decon, I have yet to hear a compelling answer to resolve the conflict of; "man's free will vs the Sovereignty of God", although your theology on this subject comes close but it does not resolve the issue.

I believe that resolving the tension between our "free will" vs "the Sovereignty of God" begins with "The will of God" As you have said; "If God has already made his decision, then there is, No need to proclaim."

If we submit our life to God as a living sacrifice, and we all do, and Christians are right in the middle of God's will for their life beginning with repentance, 2Peter3:9; "the Lord is; not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. That means that the choices we make are the same as what God wants. Or you could say that our "free will" is cooperating with, "the Sovereign will of God."

The tension is gone... :)
The Great Commission
18)
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19) Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20) and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

John6:43,44 - 43) Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus replied. 44) No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him,' and I will raise him up at the last day.
Like I have said numerous times...there must be a balance between the scriptures.....and I have no problem based upon my study accepting the fact that before God cast down the word he preordained the fact that ALL who come to him through CHRIST will be received as full grown sons and daughters.....

I also have no problem with the fact that God initiates, calls, convicts, enlightens and saves all men

I also have no problem knowing the source of faith is God and that faith comes by hearing the WORD OF GOD

Faith by hearing and hearing by the WORD

The power lies in the message!

I also have no problem believing that if God decides to not call a man based upon God knowing man's decision before hand that God is God and has that right

I also have no problem based upon ALL the scripture saying that I do not believe God said Man A will be saved and MAN B has no option but to burn!

There are too many verses that contradict that view.........

Who has ears to hear and eyes to see.....!!!!!

Whosoever will......

Whosoever believes in him.....
 
Last edited:

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
Maybe I can reciprocate.

What will save you?
Who can save you?

Did the little children have works that saved them?

What did Jesus mean when he said
You did not answer my questions but I already expect that.

About who and what can SAVE me...

We were JUSTIFIED thru FAITH in Christ. By His sacrifice on the cross, His HOLY blood shed for the forgiveness of our sins, we were made righteous. A righteousness thru FAITH.

Imputed righteousness is simply “Christ in us”

...It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our RIGHTEOUSNESS, holiness and redemption. 1 Corinthians 1:30

No one can be considered righteous without Christ in Him and he in Christ.

For Christ to be in us, we must believe and accept what we have heard (Romans 10:8-17), the WORD planted in us, which can SAVE us, (James 1:21, john 1:1-14,Matthew 13:18-23) then we will receive the promised Holy Spirit. (Galatians 3:14) The Holy Spirit will lead us unto all truth and He will be our Counselor (john 14:26) enabling us to obey His commandments which leads to RIGHTEOUSNESS leading to holiness and the result is eternal life. (Romans 6:16-22)

...Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? Romans 6:16

...“I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; APART FROM ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. John 15:5-8

...We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6

"What did Jesus mean when he said..."

The little ones are those who HUMBLY accept the WORD planted in them, which can SAVE them. Unless you become like these little ones who do not twist or misinterpret (thru their falsely called knowledge to fit their FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINES) the WORD that was planted in them, which can SAVE them, YOU will not ENTER the kingdom of God.

...“As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. I KNOW THAT HIS COMMAND LEADS TO ETERNAL LIFE. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.” John 12:47-50

BTW I never said that works ALONE saves. I promote OBEDIENCE TO God's laws, commandments, teachings and instructions as part of His very own words.

And BillG, do you know that we have a law to OBEY?

...For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law. hebrews 7:12

...Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2

Again, we must be in Christ, in His BODY which is the Church of which He is the Savior. (Ephesians 5:23, 4:11-16))
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
You did not answer my questions but I already expect that.

About who and what can SAVE me...

We were JUSTIFIED thru FAITH in Christ. By His sacrifice on the cross, His HOLY blood shed for the forgiveness of our sins, we were made righteous. A righteousness thru FAITH.

Imputed righteousness is simply “Christ in us”

...It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our RIGHTEOUSNESS, holiness and redemption. 1 Corinthians 1:30

No one can be considered righteous without Christ in Him and he in Christ.

For Christ to be in us, we must believe and accept what we have heard (Romans 10:8-17), the WORD planted in us, which can SAVE us, (James 1:21, john 1:1-14,Matthew 13:18-23) then we will receive the promised Holy Spirit. (Galatians 3:14) The Holy Spirit will lead us unto all truth and He will be our Counselor (john 14:26) enabling us to obey His commandments which leads to RIGHTEOUSNESS leading to holiness and the result is eternal life. (Romans 6:16-22)

...Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? Romans 6:16

...“I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; APART FROM ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. John 15:5-8

...We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6

"What did Jesus mean when he said..."

The little ones are those who HUMBLY accept the WORD planted in them, which can SAVE them. Unless you become like these little ones who do not twist or misinterpret (thru their falsely called knowledge to fit their FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINES) the WORD that was planted in them, which can SAVE them, YOU will not ENTER the kingdom of God.

...“As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. I KNOW THAT HIS COMMAND LEADS TO ETERNAL LIFE. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.” John 12:47-50

BTW I never said that works ALONE saves. I promote OBEDIENCE TO God's laws, commandments, teachings and instructions as part of His very own words.

And BillG, do you know that we have a law to OBEY?

...For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law. hebrews 7:12

...Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2

Again, we must be in Christ, in His BODY which is the Church of which He is the Savior. (Ephesians 5:23, 4:11-16))
...It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work. Ephesians 4:11-16
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
46,144
20,066
113
More self saving works based drivel from Seoche......blah blah blah

Faith saves immediately.....there is no process of religious hoop jumping that leads to salvation...

A man believes, confesses said belief and IS SAVED ETERNALLY at the moment of belief!
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
20,480
9,185
113
54
BTW I never said that works ALONE saves. I promote OBEDIENCE TO God's laws, commandments, teachings and instructions as part of His very own words.
It's painfully obvious that you teach salvation by faith (your version of faith) PLUS WORKS. You twist the Scriptures in order to make them teach that salvation is based on the merits of man's performance/works. Sadly, I can see that you have learned absolutely nothing from post #79,054. :(

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-3953#post-3800431
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
20,480
9,185
113
54
More self saving works based drivel from Seoche......blah blah blah

Faith saves immediately.....there is no process of religious hoop jumping that leads to salvation...

A man believes, confesses said belief and IS SAVED ETERNALLY at the moment of belief!
That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that HUMAN PRIDE will not allow works-salvationists to receive Christ. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through faith. :(
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
It's painfully obvious that you teach salvation by faith (your version of faith) PLUS WORKS. You twist the Scriptures in order to make them teach that salvation is based on the merits of our performance/works. Sadly, I can see that you have learned absolutely nothing from post #79,054. :(

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-3953#post-3800431
Sorry again mailmandan but...

The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.

These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits.(Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)

...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13

...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?

We know that Eve was deceived when she believed the deceiver and disobeyed God's command.

Who are the deceivers and who were deceived?

..But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:10‭-‬14‭, ‬24

...For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13‭-‬15

...And those that were deceived believed in the deceivers mentioned above and disobeyed God's commands because they were made to believe that they would not surely die, IOW, "always saved". But scriptures warn us not to be deceived;

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Ephesians 5:6‭-‬7

...Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...
Genesis 3:1‭-‬19

Just think what could have happened if Eve did not believe the serpents deception but OBEYED God instead. ...NO NEED TO DISCUSS SALVATION FOR SURE because no one needs to be saved.

The truth is that Adam and Eve were created according to the image of God's righteousness and holiness and they BELIEVE and OBEY God until they got DECEIVED and disobeyed God.

Did God warn us about the deception? If He did, then why resist them?

So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43

... Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. Romans 13:8-11
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
So who would say now that OBEDIENCE TO GOD HAS NO BEARING IN SALVATION?

eh?


Romans 5
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
Pressing on Toward the Goal
...Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained. Philippians 3:12-16
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
46,144
20,066
113
That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that HUMAN PRIDE will not allow works-salvationists to receive Christ. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through faith. :(
Amen.....exactly why Jesus condemned religion......!!

It binds the hands of men to that which does not save and makes the recipiant 2 fold the child of hell....

Now they have to get over...

a. Being lost
b. Their false religion!
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
eh?


Romans 5
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
The Sin and Doom of Godless Men ...Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you.They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord . Jude 1:3-4
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
46,144
20,066
113
eh?


Romans 5
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Of course ALL MEN = only the saved........cough cough because those destined to burn have no option!!!!!!

STILL cannot justifiy the calvinisitic view based upon God desiring that ALL MEN COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH and be saved.....

Is that ALL except the ones he chose for hell?
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
More self saving works based drivel from Seoche......blah blah blah

Faith saves immediately.....there is no process of religious hoop jumping that leads to salvation...

A man believes, confesses said belief and IS SAVED ETERNALLY at the moment of belief!
Nice try rebel soldier. Ever heard of Lucifers pride and rebellion and the Son of perdition? Doesn't sound like he's obedient to authorities. Now if you're a good soldier, YOU will obey your commanding officer. Take as an example the people of God who won so many battles and were saved from destruction whenever they OBEY God as their commander. Did you trust and OBEY your commanding officer in the Marines?

Why won't you obey the Lord Jesus when He says that "if you want to ENTER LIFE, obey the commandments. (Matthew 19:17)

...“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? Luke 6:46
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,698
113
eh?


Romans 5
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Eh? ;)

Oh, so it's Universalism? Or, should we apply context and common sense? Notice that word many? "All" in that context isn't each and every person who has ever lived, it is all kinds of men.

Keep in mind that used to be my belief until I actually looked at context and have read through the entirety of Scripture many times.

Now, let's not all go ape like and attack the "Calvinist" and just slow down a little, think it through, study, instead of merely pulling up a proof text. Paul is making his argument, now, go read some commentators on this and see what is going on. It's OK to learn from others. :eek::)
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,698
113
Of course ALL MEN = only the saved........cough cough because those destined to burn have no option!!!!!!

STILL cannot justifiy the calvinisitic view based upon God desiring that ALL MEN COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH and be saved.....

Is that ALL except the ones he chose for hell?
Wow, you're all worked up bro.

So, you hold God as obligated to show mercy to every person ever, correct? Mercy from God is an obligation of God? Is this also an obligation of any judge on earth?

God is not obligated to show mercy, nor is he obligated to grant grace, but he is obligated to be just.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
20,480
9,185
113
54
Sorry again mailmandan but...

The truth is that the deceiver has been deceiving from the beginning until now.

These deceivers will REJECT and NULLIFY the Word and believe the deceiving spirits. (Isaiah 5:20-24, Mark 7:6-13)

...while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2 Timothy 3:13

...THE SPIRIT CLEARLY SAYS that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through HYPOCRITICAL LIARS, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

How would we know who were the ones that were deceived?
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
46,144
20,066
113
Wow, you're all worked up bro.

So, you hold God as obligated to show mercy to every person ever, correct? Mercy from God is an obligation of God? Is this also an obligation of any judge on earth?

God is not obligated to show mercy, nor is he obligated to grant grace, but he is obligated to be just.
I never said nor implied that bro.....post 79422......I have fully stated that God is God and has a right to do as he pleases.....

I have issues with both sides of the coin and have always said there is a balance to be struck between both views based upon scripture.....

Please do not put words in my mouth that I never said nor implied migo....
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
46,144
20,066
113
Nice try rebel soldier. Ever heard of Lucifers pride and rebellion and the Son of perdition? Doesn't sound like he's obedient to authorities. Now if you're a good soldier, YOU will obey your commanding officer. Take as an example the people of God who won so many battles and were saved from destruction whenever they OBEY God as their commander. Did you trust and OBEY your commanding officer in the Marines?

Why won't you obey the Lord Jesus when He says that "if you want to ENTER LIFE, obey the commandments. (Matthew 19:17)

...“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? Luke 6:46
Add something of value Seoche.....instead of incessant moronic attacks.....

Faith saves....not your religious hoop jumping false equation.....!!