Not By Works

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Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
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God’s Faithfulness
...What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God. What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! LET GOD BE TRUE, AND EVERY MAN A LIAR. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.” Romans 3:1-4
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Look up the Hebrew word perfect in that text......not just a cursory evaluation but actually an indepth study of the word.
תָּמִים: cs. תְּמִים, f. תְּמִימָה; pl. תְּמִימִים, f. תְּמִימֹת:—1. whole, entire: day Jos 10:13, year Lv 25:30;—2. intact: tree Ez 15:5;—3. unobjectionable: way 2 S 22:31, free of blemish: sacrificial animals Ex 12:5; betāmîm unobjectionably Jos 24:14;—4. blameless Gn 6:9; temîmê derek Ps 119:1;—5. w. dōbēr Am 5:10, hōlēk Ps 15:2 sincerely, honestly;—6. temîm dêʿîm, -ʿôt one perfect in knowledge Jb 36:4; 37:16.

9459 תָּמִים (tā·mîm): adj.; ≡ Str 8549; TWOT 2522d—1. LN 79.60–79.61 without defect, unblemished, i.e., pertaining to having a good quality animal without handicap, implying a prime animal of high monetary value (Ex 12:5); 2. LN 88.1–88.11 blameless, innocent, i.e., pertaining to a person or condition of moral goodness, with a focus of being guiltless and not liable for sin or wrong (Ge 6:9; 17:1; Dt 18:13; 2Sa 22:24, 26; Job 12:4; Ps 15:2; 18:24[EB 23],26[EB 25]; 37:18; 84:12[EB 11]; 101:2, 6; 119:1, 80; Pr 2:21; 11:5, 20; 28:10, 18; Eze 28:15+); 3. LN 79.123–79.128 perfect, i.e., pertaining to having no known physical defect whatsoever (Dt 32:4+); 4. LN 88.36–88.38 perfect, i.e., pertaining to not having any moral defect (2Sa 22:31, 33; Job 36:4; 37:16; Ps 18:31[EB 30],33[EB 32]; 19:8[EB 7]+); 5. LN 59.23–59.34 entire, whole, i.e., the totality of an object (Lev 3:9; Eze 15:5; Pr 1:12+); 6. LN 73 right, true, i.e., pertaining to that which is genuine, implying sincerity (1Sa 14:41; Jos 24:14; Jdg 9:16, 19; Am 5:10+); 7. LN 67.65–67.72 full, i.e., pertaining to a period of time which is full and not lacking any amount of time, so filling to the very end of that time (Lev 23:15; 25:30; Jos 10:13+)

I see both. But in context. I can not see getting perfect body out of it..I see it as being blameless
 
Mar 14, 2011
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It does say that man was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death and the men of SODOM wanted to have sex with the angels (know them) just pointing it out
Still waiting for people to tell me what God meant when he sad the sin of the amorite was not yet complete. Before he sent Isreal in to kill everyone.

I believe this was the state of the earth when the flood came.
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
...He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him. John 7:18
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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Nations have hated Gods people since nations were first created. If this is all there is to this. God would destroy all the nations. (Like he did with the flood) I think it goes deeper than this..

That does the term “sin is complete” means? I think this is the key
Amen....they were idol worshipping baby killers and I agree.....their cup was not yet full......there are other references to this concept found and a nation, people, church, person etc. has alotted time and then they reach that point God must move in judgment....
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
46,195
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תָּמִים: cs. תְּמִים, f. תְּמִימָה; pl. תְּמִימִים, f. תְּמִימֹת:—1. whole, entire: day Jos 10:13, year Lv 25:30;—2. intact: tree Ez 15:5;—3. unobjectionable: way 2 S 22:31, free of blemish: sacrificial animals Ex 12:5; betāmîm unobjectionably Jos 24:14;—4. blameless Gn 6:9; temîmê derek Ps 119:1;—5. w. dōbēr Am 5:10, hōlēk Ps 15:2 sincerely, honestly;—6. temîm dêʿîm, -ʿôt one perfect in knowledge Jb 36:4; 37:16.

9459 תָּמִים (tā·mîm): adj.; ≡ Str 8549; TWOT 2522d—1. LN 79.60–79.61 without defect, unblemished, i.e., pertaining to having a good quality animal without handicap, implying a prime animal of high monetary value (Ex 12:5); 2. LN 88.1–88.11 blameless, innocent, i.e., pertaining to a person or condition of moral goodness, with a focus of being guiltless and not liable for sin or wrong (Ge 6:9; 17:1; Dt 18:13; 2Sa 22:24, 26; Job 12:4; Ps 15:2; 18:24[EB 23],26[EB 25]; 37:18; 84:12[EB 11]; 101:2, 6; 119:1, 80; Pr 2:21; 11:5, 20; 28:10, 18; Eze 28:15+); 3. LN 79.123–79.128 perfect, i.e., pertaining to having no known physical defect whatsoever (Dt 32:4+); 4. LN 88.36–88.38 perfect, i.e., pertaining to not having any moral defect (2Sa 22:31, 33; Job 36:4; 37:16; Ps 18:31[EB 30],33[EB 32]; 19:8[EB 7]+); 5. LN 59.23–59.34 entire, whole, i.e., the totality of an object (Lev 3:9; Eze 15:5; Pr 1:12+); 6. LN 73 right, true, i.e., pertaining to that which is genuine, implying sincerity (1Sa 14:41; Jos 24:14; Jdg 9:16, 19; Am 5:10+); 7. LN 67.65–67.72 full, i.e., pertaining to a period of time which is full and not lacking any amount of time, so filling to the very end of that time (Lev 23:15; 25:30; Jos 10:13+)

I see both. But in context. I can not see getting perfect body out of it..I see it as being blameless
Yeah I do not see it as a perfect body but when I studied the word I found one possible concept to include pure in a forensic sense......it is also interesting to not that ALL flesh had corrupted it's way upon the earth and the word applied unto Noah is also used extensively to the animals that were without blemish and or spot used in sacrifice.....the word corrupted as applied to flesh carries to idea of "go to ruin"

Just pointing out a few things.......
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Amen....they were idol worshipping baby killers and I agree.....their cup was not yet full......there are other references to this concept found and a nation, people, church, person etc. has alotted time and then they reach that point God must move in judgment....
But what is. That point?
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Yeah I do not see it as a perfect body but when I studied the word I found one possible concept to include pure in a forensic sense......it is also interesting to not that ALL flesh had corrupted it's way upon the earth and the word applied unto Noah is also used extensively to the animals that were without blemish and or spot used in sacrifice.....the word corrupted as applied to flesh carries to idea of "go to ruin"

Just pointing out a few things.......
I think it was a point when sin was complete, as in the amorite
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
10,423
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ETG,
you are such a thorn in so many sides, yet loved by those who Know where you are coming from
and feel so much heart/ache for your obedience/following the 'dark-side' -
we will continue to 'hear your corrupted interpretation of scripture, - but, your time is running out...
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,264
3,723
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If someone who is just born is automatically going to heaven, which many do believe including myself since they havent sinned yet. In fact i dont know where they go, but its certainly not hell.

Then isnt abortion the best thing to ever do? Because the odds are when someone grows up they wont become a christian in today's society? The parents are doing them a favor, really, sacrificing themselves by sinning, yet saving a soul.

That sounds twisted to me, but that would be the logical conclusion. Why insist on raising them to hell?

Anyone got a good explanation?


I will try, but I need to point out some false ideas first.

First of all, there is NO SUCH THING as a human being, that is born without sin. The Inherited Sin Nature that comes from Adam, is with us our WHOLE LIVES, and it is enough to cause us to eventually Reject our Messiah. But of COURSE God KNOWS who will REJECT and who will RECEIVE Christ as LORD, literally BEFORE the Foundation of the World.

HOWEVER:
,
Romans 5:13 (ASV)
13 for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Romans 5:13 (ESV)
13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

I think that verse can be also interpreted Sin is not imputed when the knowledge of the law is not there. It does not mean they are not guilty, but GOD will not hold them accountable. The age of accountability varies from person to person, and a severely mentally handicapped person may NEVER reach the age of accountability.

Romans 5:15 (ESV)
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass [there is the inherited sin nature], much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

Romans 7:14 (GWT)
14 I know that God's standards are spiritual, but I have a corrupt nature, sold as a slave to sin.

Romans 7:18 (NIV)
18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

There is Paul, talking about his sin nature. Every man, woman, and child inherited that from ADAM.

Romans 4:24-25 (HCSB)
24 but also for us. It will be credited to us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.
25 He was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. [-SAVED-]

So there is GOD's Plan for us to be saved by GRACE through FAITH; AND JESUS DID IT ALL. But what about little Children before they can Understand who JESUS IS?

Matthew 19:14-15 (NCV)
14 but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me. Don’t stop them, because the kingdom of heaven belongs to people who are like these children.
15 After Jesus put his hands on the children, he left there.

Matthew 12:31-32 (ESV)
31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

I think that JESUS was focusing on the FAITH of a CHILD, who can TOTALLY TRUST THEIR HEAVENLY FATHER without Question.

For Example: If you came home and found your 4 year old boy in the ROOF of your Garage, (somebody forgot a ladder leaning against it), so he is up there and waving, "Hi Daddy." So you hurry and get under him, and say, "Jump Son, Daddy will catch you." YOU HAD BETTER BE READY, BECAUSE THAT BOY WILL JUMP, because he has faith that DADDY will Catch and Save him.

That is the Faith of a Child that JESUS said we all could learn from, TOTAL TRUST.

So Younger than 4 or infants. I have to say sin is not counted where there is no law would more than sufficiently cover that; because they have NOT REJECTED CHRIST, which I am convinced it is the only unforgivable sin (blaspheming the work of the Holy Spirit), as everything else was paid for on the Cross.


1 John 2:2 (NRSV)
2 and He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Matthew 12:31-32 (ESV)
31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 (HCSB)
3 This is good, and it pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Therefore, the HOLY SPIRIT works on every Heart, so it is the work of the HOLY SPIRIT to get us to BELIEVE. MANY WILL REJECT THE MESSIAH OF THE WORLD, blaspheming the work of the Holy Spirit. But a small child or infant, will NOT have enough mental capacity to REJECT the Messiah. Therefore I would say until they are old enough to Reject Messiah, they are under the age of accountability.

“Let the little children come to me. Don’t stop them, because the kingdom of heaven belongs to people who are like these children.“
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Two year anniversary is coming up.:D

Good times!!!

After two years (almost) we still know that..... faith is not a work, and we are saved by grace through faith and salvation is a gift from God.
Ephesians 2:8

And the gift is a new status in Christ, impossible to forsake or loose
Amen
 
D

dokimos

Guest
No worries your tribe will be here to cheer you on in your carnal ways. Now, care to show us one of those posts where this happened? I'll be waiting here for your next mouthy and demeaning comment. Go for it, it's you.
Brother I believe what you say is right, but we all here must watch how we communicate with one another. A soft answer turns away wrath. God bless you all.

Lord I pray this discussion is blessed with Your Spirit and a hunger for truth. We receive You as loving children and want to discuss real bible truths and KNOW the truth. AMEN

I do not think our salvation is anything based on what we do, but I do think the STATE of salvation is much more than being saved from Hell.

The state of salvation is:
  • Not merely justification
  • Deliverance from your inborn programming to do evil continuously.
  • Freedom from bondage to evil works.
  • A curse lifted.
  • Freedom from slavery to the world (The world's toxic system, the entire world is under the sway of its god, The Devil).
  • Being given a new identity (a new birth) in The One who defeated death and could not be held by it - Jesus Christ.
  • Deliverance from demonic principalities - Satan and his angels no longer have authority over you.

I am teachable, so let me know if I seem off on any of this, and God Bless You!
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Brother I believe what you say is right, but we all here must watch how we communicate with one another. A soft answer turns away wrath. God bless you all.

Lord I pray this discussion is blessed with Your Spirit and a hunger for truth. We receive You as loving children and want to discuss real bible truths and KNOW the truth. AMEN

I do not think our salvation is anything based on what we do, but I do think the STATE of salvation is much more than being saved from Hell.

The state of salvation is:
  • Not merely justification
  • Deliverance from your inborn programming to do evil continuously.
  • Freedom from bondage to evil works.
  • A curse lifted.
  • Freedom from slavery to the world (The world's toxic system, the entire world is under the sway of its god, The Devil).
  • Being given a new identity (a new birth) in The One who defeated death and could not be held by it - Jesus Christ.
  • Deliverance from demonic principalities - Satan and his angels no longer have authority over you.

I am teachable, so let me know if I seem off on any of this, and God Bless You!
Thank you for that sister. I apologize if I've offended you.
 
D

dokimos

Guest
Thank you for that sister. I apologize if I've offended you.
No offense taken! That was for everyone, not just you! I hope everyone is having a great night. Salvation is so, so much more than justification. It is true power and spiritual blessing from the LIVING GOD imputed on us from the life of Jesus! It is TRULY life more abundant! It is a life in perfect communion with God in this life, and the eternal!

Not by works at all! He loved us too much to leave us in the state we are born in from the curse. You can tell a true convert from a false one if you spend enough time with them. God's power to save is ACTIVE, WORKING AND APPARENT in our lives - and you do nothing to get this.

The one amazing thing that the Holy Spirit grants to us is the knowledge of our own sin and WHY it is so harmful and to be avoided, and it is not because we are "not saved" if we still sin - it is because it causes us to reject God's grace, and sours our fellowship with Him and others. And it puts the Son of God to an open shame, dragging His name through the mud. If you love God with all your heart, why would you ever want to make Him look bad? You don't! But sin sure will cause you to do that.

I am sure we all know this in Spirit, but I am just stating my own thoughts on this particular theological discussion for the sake of discussion.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
46,195
20,126
113
Two year anniversary is coming up.:D

Good times!!!

After two years (almost) we still know that..... faith is not a work, and we are saved by grace through faith and salvation is a gift from God.
Ephesians 2:8

And the gift is a new status in Christ, impossible to forsake or loose
Amen
Amen.......and still swinging the sword...!!
 
Mar 14, 2011
69,465
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ETG,
you are such a thorn in so many sides, yet loved by those who Know where you are coming from
and feel so much heart/ache for your obedience/following the 'dark-side' -
we will continue to 'hear your corrupted interpretation of scripture, - but, your time is running out...
My time is running out?
 
Mar 14, 2011
69,465
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Only God can determine that......like the ole saying....give em enough rope to hang themselves.........ha
Oh i think we can know. Like i said it is not personal sin, it is much deeper than that. There is only one way to look at it and keep God justified and also loving at the same time.
 
Mar 14, 2011
69,465
14,809
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Brother I believe what you say is right, but we all here must watch how we communicate with one another. A soft answer turns away wrath. God bless you all.

Lord I pray this discussion is blessed with Your Spirit and a hunger for truth. We receive You as loving children and want to discuss real bible truths and KNOW the truth. AMEN

I do not think our salvation is anything based on what we do, but I do think the STATE of salvation is much more than being saved from Hell.

The state of salvation is:
  • Not merely justification
  • Deliverance from your inborn programming to do evil continuously.
  • Freedom from bondage to evil works.
  • A curse lifted.
  • Freedom from slavery to the world (The world's toxic system, the entire world is under the sway of its god, The Devil).
  • Being given a new identity (a new birth) in The One who defeated death and could not be held by it - Jesus Christ.
  • Deliverance from demonic principalities - Satan and his angels no longer have authority over you.

I am teachable, so let me know if I seem off on any of this, and God Bless You!
I believe some people can not see th wrong they do.. Yet have no problem calling other peole out. But amen. Our communication should be edifying, not tearing each other down.. Something which we are all guilty off But we need to be repentant.