Not By Works

[BillG]

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Hi EG

I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of someone who would believe in the reality of Christ - but not surrender and follow ( aside from the demons of course...) To 'know' but yet refuse - a scary idea....

Care to expand on that a bit...
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I am not responding for EG here but thought I would give my thoughts.

I suppose it depends on the word 'believe'

I have a book that looks at the material out there concerning Jesus.
In it there are quoted eminent ancient historians who believe Jesus was factually and actually a real person. One of them quotes that atheists who seek to disprove Jesus have the historical knowledge of a baby.

So many people believe Jesus was real, just like they do with Ceaser.
But it stops there.

That's not the believe that one surrenders their life to Jesus for which is to place their faith in him. Set apart to be holy.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are adding to the words written.James shows no such thing as you claim.("Then he goes to show what the difference between a living faith which saves and a dead faith which will never save")That which you write is simply your interpretation of his plain words.Read it again:

“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?”(James 2:14)

He did not ask; "can his profession of faith save him?He also further supports his position when he says:


“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”(James 2:21-23)

Nothing here about simply a profession of faith.You are the one that is mistaken.

You just hurt your own argument

James said what does it profit a man if he CLAIMS to have faith.

One who claims they have faith is making a profession of faith

James is asking, can a dead faith save, the answer is not.

Since work is a natural by product of faith, true living faith will produce works, there is no ands if or buts about it

So james is telling his readers, if you CLAIM you have faith, but have no work can that faith save you? Not to add works, but to verify your faith, as abraham did decades after he was saved by faith.

 

[BillG]

2:20 James calls the person who separates faith and works (see v. 18) foolish, meaning “empty-headed.”
2:21 James clearly teaches justification by faith, for he quotes Gen. 15:6 in v. 23, which obviously connects the crediting of righteousness, that is, salvation, to Abraham’s belief (see Paul’s explanation of Gen. 15:6 in Rom. 4:1–12). The justification by works of which James is speaking is a different type of justification. This type of justification is before other people. In other words, James is using the word justified to mean “proved.” We prove to others our genuine faith in Christ through our works. But the justification that comes through faith is before God, and we do not “prove” ourselves to Him; instead, God declares us righteous through our association with Christ, the One who died for our sins (Rom. 3:28).
2:22 Faith and works should be together; there is a close relationship between the two. Faith produces works; and works makes faith perfect, meaning “mature” or “complete.”

Faith and works are not enemies. True faith and righteous works go hand in hand. They are two parts of God’s work in us. Faith brings a person to salvation, and works bring that person to faithfulness. Faith is the cause, works are the effect. James believed it, and so did Paul.

2:23 By offering Isaac (see Gen. 22:1–12), Abraham endured the test and demonstrated his complete trust in God. His obedience made him a friend of God (see John 15:14).

Just to clarify the above is Bible study notes.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have already said Paul and James are not contradictory but it seems you choose to ignore this as well as you ignore the source of your error.It is very simple.You use the scriptures as the devil did with Jesus and so ignore the writings of Paul which supports what James proclaim.Because I take all into consideration I am free of this problem and have no trouble reconciling Paul and James.

In your view, or belief system, they are,

You have not solved the contradiction

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I stopped reading this post after Can faith alone save?

Context is always good...

Faith Without Works Is Dead​

Jas 2:14　 What good does it do, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith but does not prove it with actions? This kind of faith cannot save him, can it?


Jas 2:15　 Suppose a brother or sister does not have any clothes or daily food


Jas 2:16　 and one of you tells them, "Go in peace! Stay warm and eat heartily." If you do not provide for their bodily needs, what good does it do?


Jas 2:17　 In the same way, faith by itself, if it does not prove itself with actions, is dead.

James isn't speaking of salvation here. Unless you want to call giving a starving person food to eat, his salvation.

Amen sis context is good

James asked the qiestion

Can that faith SAVE him.

Can a dead faith save?

I say no, and I think james agrees

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think she does that on purpose, because she thinks it all is a JOKE.

The Joke may be on her:


2 Peter 3:3 (NJB)
3 First of all, do not forget that in the final days there will come sarcastic scoffers whose life is ruled by their passions.

I think the same, she has done that since she first came in here

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I only have two questions.Do you believe what James wrote?

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”(James 2:21-23)

Also;what happens to those


I only have two questions:

Do you really believe what James writes?It cannot be any clearer than this:

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”(James 2:21-23)

Do you understand what is meant when the passage says:

"...And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:..."

Yes i do, do you?

Abraham believed and was acounted as righteous decades before he offerd his son,

His faith was justified or verified when he showed his faith by offering his son, as the scripture says, he understood God will keep his promise, even if it means raising him from the dead, from that point foward, the weak frail abraham showed how his faith went from little faith with some doubt to pure powerful faith

He was not saved then however, if that saved him, then he earned a wage and can boast, as paul said in romans 4, and this is just not so,

Again, you cause paul and james to contradict,

 

[mailmandan]

Amen sis context is good

James asked the qiestion

Can that faith SAVE him.

Can a dead faith save?

I say no, and I think james agrees

Amen! In this context, "dead faith" which remains alone - "barren of works" cannot save you because it is an empty profession of faith (James 2:14) and not authentic faith which results in evidential works.

 

[Rosemaryx]

Hi all...
Just finished reading 2 Timothy , and when I read this Scripture , I see it for what it is...
2 TIMOTHY 1:9 Who has SAVED us and called us with a holy calling , NOT according to our WORKS , but according to His OWN ourpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity...xox...

 

[mailmandan]

Yes i do, do you?

Abraham believed and was acounted as righteous decades before he offerd his son,

His faith was justified or verified when he showed his faith by offering his son, as the scripture says, he understood God will keep his promise, even if it means raising him from the dead, from that point foward, the weak frail abraham showed how his faith went from little faith with some doubt to pure powerful faith

He was not saved then however, if that saved him, then he earned a wage and can boast, as paul said in romans 4, and this is just not so,

Again, you cause paul and james to contradict,

Amen! In James 2:21, we notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. (James 2:22) James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are failing to deal with the plain /no interpretation/ no opinion needed writings of James.He actually puts all in proper perspective,in one place,that which Paul teaches over several chapters in various letters.However your use of the scriptures as the devil did with Jesus will prevent you from seeing/acknowledging this.

Same could be said of you my friend

Instead of attacking with strawmen which can be used against you also, how about some meat

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi all...
Just finished reading 2 Timothy , and when I read this Scripture , I see it for what it is...
2 TIMOTHY 1:9 Who has SAVED us and called us with a holy calling , NOT according to our WORKS , but according to His OWN ourpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity...xox...

Not according to works, so many places it is said, yet so many ignore it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen! In James 2:21, we notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. (James 2:22) James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

Amen

god promised abraham, through your son i give all these promises

Abraham did what he did based on his fath god would keep his word.

His work did not save him, his faith did, his faith (living) produced wrk, as it always does

 

[Rosemaryx]

Not according to works, so many places it is said, yet so many ignore it.

That`s because they are looking for something else...We know we will do good deeds , because God has set them before us...He knows our steps because He guides us...He opens our mouth to speak His good news when we are prompted by the Holy Spirit , He will use any part of our body as He chooses according to His Will to serve Him...xox...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That`s because they are looking for something else...We know we will do good deeds , because God has set them before us...He knows our steps because He guides us...He opens our mouth to speak His good news when we are prompted by the Holy Spirit , He will use any part of our body as He chooses according to His Will to serve Him...xox...

Amen, we have faith in him, faith means trust, trust is earned, and the more steps of faith we take, the more God proves his faithfulness.

 

[dcontroversal]

I will accept what James says,will you?

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”(James 2:21-23)

I do accept it, and the context of what he said....which is NOT that a man is justified before God by works.......SHOW ME your faith is the context and the comparison between a mere belief in God and actual saving faith.......James is not teaching that works justify a man before GOD....

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works

Therefore we concluded that a man is justified by faith without the deeds/works of the law.

"A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ; we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ." Paul, then, faith is the synthesis of Christ's gift and man's effort

Your conclusions and incessant use of James out of context to peddle a works based salvation/justification before God is false........end of story........get honest and engage the actual context of the verses you cite or do not address me!

 

[dcontroversal]

And according to you this is all Paul wrote?No matter how much you try to ignore it James is very clear.Faith alone cannot save.When you take into consideration all that Paul wrote you will see he says the same thing.

No, he didn't, and as a matter of fact he taught the exact opposite of the drivel you peddle by using James out of context.......

 

[dcontroversal]

Seriously this is shocking...

Not only shocking, but as false as can be.........not of God and not biblical at all......

 

[dcontroversal]

2:20 James calls the person who separates faith and works (see v. 18) foolish, meaning “empty-headed.”
2:21 James clearly teaches justification by faith, for he quotes Gen. 15:6 in v. 23, which obviously connects the crediting of righteousness, that is, salvation, to Abraham’s belief (see Paul’s explanation of Gen. 15:6 in Rom. 4:1–12). The justification by works of which James is speaking is a different type of justification. This type of justification is before other people. In other words, James is using the word justified to mean “proved.” We prove to others our genuine faith in Christ through our works. But the justification that comes through faith is before God, and we do not “prove” ourselves to Him; instead, God declares us righteous through our association with Christ, the One who died for our sins (Rom. 3:28).
2:22 Faith and works should be together; there is a close relationship between the two. Faith produces works; and works makes faith perfect, meaning “mature” or “complete.”

Faith and works are not enemies. True faith and righteous works go hand in hand. They are two parts of God’s work in us. Faith brings a person to salvation, and works bring that person to faithfulness. Faith is the cause, works are the effect. James believed it, and so did Paul.

2:23 By offering Isaac (see Gen. 22:1–12), Abraham endured the test and demonstrated his complete trust in God. His obedience made him a friend of God (see John 15:14).

And lest we forget......Abraham was justified by faith (saved) long before he offered Isaac..........

 

[dcontroversal]

You just hurt your own argument

James said what does it profit a man if he CLAIMS to have faith.

One who claims they have faith is making a profession of faith

James is asking, can a dead faith save, the answer is not.

Since work is a natural by product of faith, true living faith will produce works, there is no ands if or buts about it

So james is telling his readers, if you CLAIM you have faith, but have no work can that faith save you? Not to add works, but to verify your faith, as abraham did decades after he was saved by faith.

Amazing how simple it is and yet gets twisted up into some false dogma that would not save a rock in my yard, much less a man....