Not By Works

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stillness

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Jan 28, 2013
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These to verses were not intended to say the same thing and were corrected to say the same thing by mistake

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."

Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit."
Jesus warned them of the danger of not discerning the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 12:31 (without italics added for explanation) Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy the Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."
This verse was intended to explain what we become by rejecting the Holy Spirit: a blasphemy, filled with violence: the mark of the enemy.
 

stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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"And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven."
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is to deny Christ and his work as being from God <---a state of unbelief....those who will not believe-->They cannot be forgiven!
Those who do not Love remain nothing even if they understand all mysteries. "Not all who say Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but those who do the will of My Father in heaven." Discerning that Jesus is God does not save us. Believing: in our heart, is being cleansed by His blood, and the Word of God dwelling in us has to testify and not love our life to shrink from death: overcoming the enemy by the influence of Holy Spirit. "They overcame by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony and they loved not their life as much as to shrink from death. "Faith that Works by LOve." I suspect more Christians remain among the nations of the saved than those who obtain a crown of life, and only those who overcome have part in the first resurrection. "Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." That's incredible eternal security, we all end up where we desire to be. "Jesus the saviour of all men, especially of them that believe." languages have been confused until we walk in Love. In many language if people have not heard or understood that Jesus is God they are forgiven Just like the rest of the world "All manner of sin," as long as they have not rejected the Holy Spirit they learn to Love. They may not be overcomers to obtain a crown of Life but because they have Love in their heart. "For as much as you have done it to the least of these my brethren, you have done it to Me." This supports eternal security for those who walk in Love in any language even yours, and yet the Lord told me: It would be better for you not to have been born than to return to your vomit (When I was tempted to live in pleasures of sin). The more that is given to us the more accountable we are, turning away from Love we are nothing. The more accountable we are to continue in the Light we have and fulfil our calling. My Calling was given to me 3 years ago, I would have been 60 then. Some of the words, spoken to me directly in my heart: Do the work of an evangelist, this surprized me, the rest did not surprize me: Fear not I Am with You, and: Pray for the anointing. This is not a simple prayer like praying to receive the Holy Spirit like in Acts chapter 2 and praying in the Spirit, I have received this 40 years ago, but like in acts 4: These believers already had the Holy Spirit and were praying to speak the word of God with boldness in the face of opposition and persecution. Also it's about going on to perfection, "And this we will do if God permits" I have not yet received this anointing, as I mentioned last night heard: First take away the dross from the silver. There can be no pride of achievement in us to have the anointing. Many can pretend though, but it's easy to see they are filled with themselves and not the boldness of the Spirit and sadly it's hard to tell them anything as full of ourselves we are hard of hearing and I have been there.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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List all of the things we have to do to remain saved.

Answered. Obey Jesus Christ: The truth.


Jesus is the truth.

Everything that comes out of His mouth is the truth.


His Gospel
His Commandments
His Doctrine


That’s my answer.


I know you don’t like it.


But my answer is the truth.



Now please answer my question, that you have so far, avoided.


Which of His Commandments do you disobey


No other god’s.
Worshiping graven images
Taking His name in vain.
Dishonoring your mother and father.
Murder.
Adultery.
Stealing.
Lying.
Covetousness.




JPT
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Again, believe means obey.
No, believe "pisteuo" does not mean obey. Believe means have faith in/trust in. Obedience which follows is WORKS. The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief. Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I was also confused about this and basically defined faith "as" obedience/works just as all works-salvationists do.

Demons believe, but they obey Satan.
In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/have faith/trust in/reliance in Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, which explains why they obey Satan rather than Christ, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. The word believe "pisteuo" can describe mere "mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31.

Those who do not continue in the doctrine of Christ, no longer has God.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9
You "added" your own commentary to 2 John 9. This verse does not say "no longer" has God.
The KJV reads ..hath not God.
The NKJV reads ..does not have God.
The NIV reads ..does not have God.
The NASB reads ..does not have God.

*In verse 9, we find two different camps. 1. "Those who transgress and do not abide in the doctrine of Christ do not have God" and 2. "those who abide in the doctrine of Christ and have both the Father and the Son." *There is no third camp. Anyone who who goes on ahead DOES NOT abide in Jesus' teaching and DOES NOT have God. NEVER DID.

EISEGESIS - The interpreter makes the scripture say what he wants it to say.
EXEGESIS - The interpreter makes the scripture say what God has to say.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Did not mean to imply salvation is obtained by one's works. It is not.
I hear certain people say that salvation is not obtained by works out of one side of their mouth, then out of the other side of their mouth teach that we are saved by faith + works. When pressed, such people will try to dance around the truth and say that we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works. In post 82,771 you quoted scripture on water baptism and referred to them as "salvation instructions" and in a different thread you also taught salvation by water baptism - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ohn-the-baptist’-message.182311/#post-3826455

To say that salvation is not obtained by one's works/but we are saved by water baptism is an oxymoron. You can't have it both ways.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Obey the Spirit of Christ within you, the truth.
  • eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8
If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might reach the conclusion that Paul was teaching salvation by works--as demonstrated by you. However, as you read and study these passages, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

"Perseverance in good work" - *descriptive of believers; "but those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness" - *descriptive of unbelievers.

*You must not confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture.

What those passages of scripture convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
 
Dec 27, 2018
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If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might reach the conclusion that Paul was teaching salvation by works--as demonstrated by you. However, as you read and study these passages, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

"Perseverance in good work" - *descriptive of believers; "but those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness" - *descriptive of unbelievers.

*You must not confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture.

What those passages of scripture convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
Excellent post. Also, Paul follows these verses by showing that "there is none who does good, not even one" in Romans 3. What I see is

a. Paul laying out the requirements,

b. then showing that we all failed to meet them,

c. and then showing that Christ fulfilled them firstly for us, in our stead (equals justification and initial, positional sanctification) then in us as we walk in the Spirit (equals progressive, practical sanctification)
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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No, believe "pisteuo" does not mean obey. Believe means have faith in/trust in. Obedience which follows is WORKS. The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief. Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I was also confused about this and basically defined faith "as" obedience/works just as all works-salvationists do.

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/have faith/trust in/reliance in Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, which explains why they obey Satan rather than Christ, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. The word believe "pisteuo" can describe mere "mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31.

You "added" your own commentary to 2 John 9. This verse does not say "no longer" has God.
The KJV reads ..hath not God.
The NKJV reads ..does not have God.
The NIV reads ..does not have God.
The NASB reads ..does not have God.

*In verse 9, we find two different camps. 1. "Those who transgress and do not abide in the doctrine of Christ do not have God" and 2. "those who abide in the doctrine of Christ and have both the Father and the Son." *There is no third camp. Anyone who who goes on ahead DOES NOT abide in Jesus' teaching and DOES NOT have God. NEVER DID.

EISEGESIS - The interpreter makes the scripture say what he wants it to say.
EXEGESIS - The interpreter makes the scripture say what God has to say.
hay dan, anyone who tells lies about what words mean, and as you said here, just put their own personal spin on Scripture, has no interest in being honest, then much less having a honest conversation.
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
158
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No, believe "pisteuo" does not mean obey. Believe means have faith in/trust in. Obedience which follows is WORKS. The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief. Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I was also confused about this and basically defined faith "as" obedience/works just as all works-salvationists do.

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/have faith/trust in/reliance in Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, which explains why they obey Satan rather than Christ, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. The word believe "pisteuo" can describe mere "mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31.

You "added" your own commentary to 2 John 9. This verse does not say "no longer" has God.
The KJV reads ..hath not God.
The NKJV reads ..does not have God.
The NIV reads ..does not have God.
The NASB reads ..does not have God.

*In verse 9, we find two different camps. 1. "Those who transgress and do not abide in the doctrine of Christ do not have God" and 2. "those who abide in the doctrine of Christ and have both the Father and the Son." *There is no third camp. Anyone who who goes on ahead DOES NOT abide in Jesus' teaching and DOES NOT have God. NEVER DID.

EISEGESIS - The interpreter makes the scripture say what he wants it to say.
EXEGESIS - The interpreter makes the scripture say what God has to say.
If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might reach the conclusion that Paul was teaching salvation by works--as demonstrated by you. However, as you read and study these passages, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

"Perseverance in good work" - *descriptive of believers; "but those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness" - *descriptive of unbelievers.

*You must not confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture.

What those passages of scripture convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
WHAT IF SOME DID NOT HAVE FAITH? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! LET GOD BE TRUE, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

...If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 1 Corinthians 13:2

...As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:26

...For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Galatians 5:6

...If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. 1 Corinthians 13:2,13

...And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love. 2 John 1:6

Start WALKING and stop TALKING.

...For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. 1 Corinthians 4:20
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
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hay dan, anyone who tells lies about what words mean, and as you said here, just put their own personal spin on Scripture, has no interest in being honest, then much less having a honest conversation.
...If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain. 1 Timothy 6:3-5
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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...If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain. 1 Timothy 6:3-5
anyone like you who just posts long lists of out-of-context Scripture, then just writes in your own commentary is 100% false teaching.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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WHAT IF SOME DID NOT HAVE FAITH? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! LET GOD BE TRUE, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

...If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 1 Corinthians 13:2
...For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Galatians 5:6

...If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. 1 Corinthians 13:2,13
Paul uses hyperbole about understanding ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge and having faith that can move mountains yet having NO love to stress the importance of love. Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6), but we are saved through faith, not faith plus love, as if we could perform enough acts of love to merit eternal life.

Love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all and long after faith and hope are no longer necessary, love will still be the governing principle that controls everything that God and His saints are and do. We won't need faith and hope in heaven. All genuine BELIEVERS love Christ. Why? Because we have received the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) when we believed the gospel (Ephesians 1:13). We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19).

...As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:26
The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

...And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love. 2 John 1:6
Many "nominal" Christians talk the talk, but genuine BELIEVERS/those who are born of God walk according to His commands out of love. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

Start WALKING and stop TALKING.
Who are you to judge my WALK? Stop TALKING and FALSELY ACCUSING and start BELIEVING.

...For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. 1 Corinthians 4:20
You do A LOT of TALKING. 1 Thessalonians 1:5 - For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
41,591
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I see the deceiving, law breaker is back giving me thumbs down again...even though she is here against the rules and a fraud......HAHHA gotta love the working for, self saving religionists that claim Christ and obedience, but walk contrary on every turn.....
 
Oct 31, 2015
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hay dan, anyone who tells lies about what words mean, and as you said here, just put their own personal spin on Scripture, has no interest in being honest, then much less having a honest conversation.

Can a person be saved by disobeying Christ?




JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
1,806
473
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I see the deceiving, law breaker is back giving me thumbs down again...even though she is here against the rules and a fraud......HAHHA gotta love the working for, self saving religionists that claim Christ and obedience, but walk contrary on every turn.....


Can a person be saved by disobeying Christ?



JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
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Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is to deny Christ and his work as being from God <---a state of unbelief....those who will not believe-->They cannot be forgiven!

You misunderstand the word blasphemy.


Blasphemy is to speak against another in a demeaning or derogatory way.




JPT
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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Can a person be saved by disobeying Christ?
No, you arent saved by disobeying nobody ever suggested that. But if you really boil it down, everyone is saved in VARYING levels of disobedience.

LEts say you stop breaking all the 10commandments. Thats great.

But you are STILL in disobedience in some other area, such as: pride, lazy, KNOWING to do GOOD and NOT doing it. etc. Whatsoever thats done not out of faith is SIN!

You cant win with the "sin game". THERE IS ONLY VICTORY IN CHRIST!
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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You misunderstand the word blasphemy.


Blasphemy is to speak against another in a demeaning or derogatory way.




JPT[/QUOTE}

another lie.

greek word for blasphemy - blashphemia- definition- slow to call something good, slow to call something bad.

also, switch right for wrong