Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,195
113
True, we should all strive to walk

But this thread is not about walking, it is about how we are saved and empowered to begin that walk.
Is it possible to separate the two?
We were called before we were born, destined to the eternal Kingdom.
Each step is a further realisation of our living relationship with the Lord, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

When one considers all that leads up to conviction and repentance, worship and faith, which never stop through
each step we take, are we not always in a place of meekness, humbleness, service, honour and praise.

Paul the apostle, followed God, and God demonstrated to him he needed Jesus.
He did not stop being a pharisee, going to the temple, being a jew, yet he brought glory to God.

Peter, a jew, thought all his background meant he could not be with gentiles until God showed him through
a vision.

It strikes me that it is the walk that is everything, and by continuing we become what God intends.
But maybe for some, their walk is the same as the walk of the world, only with a faith.

You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely? But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."
James 4:4-6
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
2,317
2,523
113
58
I think people forget the price,

God wraps us in salvation with his own flesh and blood, as God wrapped adam and eve with the skin of animals, and the high priest covered the sin of the people with the blood of the killed animal, so the cherub could not see what accused the people, and as john recognized, jesus is the lamb of god, who removes the sin of us all.

They seem to think they can wrap themselfs, or worse yet, they can open the door of the ark and jump out. (Or unwrap themselves)

They forget salvation was not something we could do, as a person who has fallen into rushing water totally unable to save themselves, then think that if the person is saved, they would jump back into that water, knowing they would have to be saved again, because they did not learn the first time?

Pride is a hard thing to break, we can just pray God break the pride of those whomare so close to truth, but so far from it, pray they are not of those who will stand on their merit, only to be told depart because you NEVER KNEW THEM.
Jesus will spit the luke warmers out of His mouth...xox...
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
3,989
1,820
113
I'm gonna have to put some more people on ignore sadly, this is hardly stimulating conversation. Sorry, bye
You put him on ignore because you were pressed to answer if Jesus was or God or not.

Why is it so hard for you to answer?

Is Jesus God?
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,195
113
One who condemns others for sinning while sinning themselves. One who condemns others for not "abiding" when they themselves are not abiding. Those who sit on their self-righteous high horse and thunder down judgement on others while making excuses for their own daily sinning.
Using this logic, you are saying no one can walk in a way that is pleasing to God.
So the apostles got it wrong.

May the Lord make your love increase and overflow for each other and for everyone else, just as ours does for you. May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.
1 Thess 3:12-13

Do everything without complaining or arguing, so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe as you hold out the word of life--in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labour for nothing.
Phil 2:14-16

I know you can testify about your own experience, but not about others.
I am not here to say how you stand before man or God, yet you desire to declare this about everyone else.

You seem to be saying all are bound to sin and sin continuously. Please my friend, can you tell me which sins
you see in my life that I might repent of them and walk in purity and holiness with Jesus.

If you cannot, then your suggestion is false.
The enemy continually speaks as you do before the Father about the followers of Jesus.
Yet in Christ we have the victory, through walking in His ways. Do you not believe Jesus and the cross?
Has Jesus not brought change and new life to you?
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
3,989
1,820
113
Using this logic, you are saying no one can walk in a way that is pleasing to God.
Never said that. By our new nature we please God, but not with the fleshy nature when we choose to sin.

"So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:8)

It's the same reason why Paul wrote Romans 7:14-25
 
Mar 14, 2011
66,539
12,669
113
Is it possible to separate the two?
I guess your right,

Those saved WILL be sanctified, because it is god who works in them

But when you make works a requirement to be saved or maintain salvation, your in danger of preaching a different gospel.

Think of this thread like the book of galations,

Ever notice why there are no santification threads, its all about law or grace vs works? Because everyone here knows what sanctification is and what it takes, thus there is no argument. You will not find huge threads on things everone agrees on,

Again, this is a justification thread, not a sanctification thread, if you would like to try and open one, feel free, but in here, please stick to the topic.


We were called before we were born, destined to the eternal Kingdom.
Each step is a further realisation of our living relationship with the Lord, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

When one considers all that leads up to conviction and repentance, worship and faith, which never stop through
each step we take, are we not always in a place of meekness, humbleness, service, honour and praise.

Paul the apostle, followed God, and God demonstrated to him he needed Jesus.
He did not stop being a pharisee, going to the temple, being a jew, yet he brought glory to God.

Peter, a jew, thought all his background meant he could not be with gentiles until God showed him through
a vision.

It strikes me that it is the walk that is everything, and by continuing we become what God intends.
But maybe for some, their walk is the same as the walk of the world, only with a faith.

You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely? But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."
James 4:4-6
Again, this is a justification thread, you wish to talk about christian growth open another thread.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
19,654
8,055
113
54
What now Dan?
I posted 4 verses
What do you mean by what now? So you are disregarding Romans 6:23 and Ephesians 2:8 which clearly state that eternal life/salvation is a gift?

You posted only 1
And I said I had a lot more....

You can find ONE verse or even two, to prove anything -- and you know this.

Faith is the gift we receive from God.
With faith comes salvation....if you want to say salvation is a gift due to our faith which IS a gift, that's up to you.
So you reject the clear teaching of scripture that eternal life/salvation is a gift (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8) and in Romans 5:15-18, FREE GIFT is mentioned three times. *In Romans 3:24, we read that we are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (y)

I say we need to look at the N.T. as a whole.
If Jesus sets CONDITIONS on our salvataion...it is NOT a gift,,,but a prize we get at the end.
Distorting and perverting passages of scripture in an effort to pervert the gospel by teaching salvation by works is not how we properly look at the N.T. as a whole. How many CONDITIONS did Jesus set on salvation in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26?

You could see the following verses for this:
Romans 8:24-25
Hebrews 11:1
1 Peter 1:6-9
1 peter 3:15
In regards to Romans 8:24-25, this hope is not some "cross your fingers" hope I make it to heaven kind of hope. Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE (expectation of what is sure/certain) of eternal life (Titus 3:7).

We have the hope of salvation...Paul speaks about it as something to take place in the future....
We can say we have it now....but we cannot claim it till we have earned it.
*You clearly exposed yourself here.* You said that we cannot claim the hope of salvation until we have EARNED it! :eek: Busted! Salvation by works.

There are 3 tenses to salvation, which often get mixed up by works-salvationists. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification). 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification). We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification). What takes place in the future is glorification (1 Peter 1:9) "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" which is not to be confused with justification (Romans 5:1) "having been justified by faith" - which is past tense, with ongoing present results.

IF there were no conditions, then it would be a gift.
Salvation is a GIFT (Romans 3:24; 5:15-18; 6:23;, Ephesians 2:8) that we FREELY ACCEPT, yet you turn salvation into a prize or reward (something we work for and earn) which is a clear case of salvation by works! :(
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,195
113
Never said that. By our new nature we please God, but not with the fleshy nature when we choose to sin.

"So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:8)

It's the same reason why Paul wrote Romans 7:14-25
How do people who know Jesus and follow Him actually walk without sin, in your view?

Is sin always present, or do we find cleansing through repentance?

The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
James 5:16

If none ever are righteous, then there is no powerful or effective prayer.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, are you saying, we are not forgiven and cleansed at all?
If we are purified from all unrighteousness, surely we are then righteous?
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
3,989
1,820
113
How do people who know Jesus and follow Him actually walk without sin, in your view?
In their flesh, they fully can't. Which is why a Christian's destiny is determined by the new nature in Christ.

Is sin always present, or do we find cleansing through repentance?
Read Romans 8.

If none ever are righteous, then there is no powerful or effective prayer.
We have been made righteous (Romans 5:1). We don't have a righteousness of our own via the flesh. Our prayers are effective due to our new nature.

If we confess our sins, are you saying, we are not forgiven and cleansed at all?
I'll answer that question with a question: Is all sin, past, present, and future, already completely forgiven?
 
Mar 14, 2011
66,539
12,669
113
How do people who know Jesus and follow Him actually walk without sin, in your view?

Is sin always present, or do we find cleansing through repentance?

The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
James 5:16

If none ever are righteous, then there is no powerful or effective prayer.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, are you saying, we are not forgiven and cleansed at all?
If we are purified from all unrighteousness, surely we are then righteous?
If we say we have no sin we decieve ourselves and there is no truh in us

We need to stop thinking of sin as certain actions, and think of it is a heart issue.


The jews did that thinking they obeyed the law so they were ok, they were not ok, its why Jesus still had to come, we are not saved or made righteous by doing works of righteousness Titus 3, but by gods mercy, he washes us. We cant wash ourselves

Anything i do to serve self is sin, and we all do it every day.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,195
113
Distorting and perverting passages of scripture in an effort to pervert the gospel by teaching salvation by works is not how we properly look at the N.T. as a whole. How many CONDITIONS did Jesus set on salvation in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26?
Salvation has conditions - you need to hear it, you need to respond, you need to confess, you need to act, you need to
repent, you need to believe, you need to trust, you need to obey, you need to follow, you need to love, you need to abide

Think of each denomination and the statements of faith which qualify one as a member of that church.
Start a conversation with a believer, and cross one, just one of their lines. Suddenly one is not "saved" or part of their
group or fellowship, but an outsider.

Maybe people have gone to church so long, the long list is obvious, so ofcourse everyone follows it, and so salvation has
no conditions.

It is like saying life goes on without effort - except, breathing, eating, drinking, moving, having support, shelter, relationships,
sleep etc. The words actually mean something else. Life goes on without us having to know all the mechanisms other than
doing the basics.

In this light, salvation cannot be earnt, ie. balancing out good deeds to outweigh our sinful deeds.
But how does a worldly sinful person become a mature brother or sister in Christ?
And what is a mature man or woman in the Lord? A minister in large conferences with their personal jet?
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,195
113
If we say we have no sin we decieve ourselves and there is no truh in us

We need to stop thinking of sin as certain actions, and think of it is a heart issue.

The jews did that thinking they obeyed the law so they were ok, they were not ok, its why Jesus still had to come, we are not saved or made righteous by doing works of righteousness Titus 3, but by gods mercy, he washes us. We cant wash ourselves

Anything i do to serve self is sin, and we all do it every day.
Sin is a heart issue. What do you mean?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
19,654
8,055
113
54
Scripture says it is a gift.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23
Amen Magenta! :) How does one "earn" a FREE GIFT? They don't. Otherwise, it would not be a free gift. ;)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
19,654
8,055
113
54
HE EARNED it on the cross and IS alive working in us.
Amen! ALL the praise, glory and honor goes to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! :)

So what did WE earn? Romans 6:23 - The wages of sin is death..! :eek:

BUT the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (y)