Not By Works

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FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Some people are not very bright - :eek:
Some people are doomed to judgement - :cry:
Some people will find the truth in Christ - Amen (y)
Some people have not been cleansed - :sick:
Some people are committed to having fun - o_O
Some people want answers to everything - :p
But greatest of all is some people want to grow and change because of Jesus's love Halleluyah
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
10,162
6,571
113
Some people are not very bright - :eek:
Some people are doomed to judgement - :cry:
Some people will find the truth in Christ - Amen (y)
Some people have not been cleansed - :sick:
Some people are committed to having fun - o_O
Some people want answers to everything - :p
But greatest of all is some people want to grow and change because of Jesus's love Halleluyah
Is THIS your answer to my question?
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
This answer is completely evasive. The exact point of the question was to NOT judge you, but to hear from your heart.

I'll try ONE more time, and will recognize that if you do not answer yeah or nay, that you have in fact deceived.

Have you had account/accounts here before, and if so, have you been banned before?
Wow.
For someone that never answers MY questions....
you are VERY DEMANDING,,,!

I hope @FollowHisSteps ignores you completely since that is what you deserve.

How about this:

1. Become a moderator and then kick off who THIS SITE tells you can be kicked off.

2. Stick to discussing SCRIPTURE and THEOLOGY and stop wasting everybody's time.

3. Ignore persons you don't like....but whom you're supposed to LOVE, BTW,
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
2,628
113
Some people are not very bright - :eek:
Some people are doomed to judgement - :cry:
Some people will find the truth in Christ - Amen (y)
Some people have not been cleansed - :sick:
Some people are committed to having fun - o_O
Some people want answers to everything - :p
Some people have to learn
Some people wait their turn
Some people dont believe
Some people but not me....I was born a champion :cool:

Thats a song I remember.......
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
9,183
4,912
113
Wow.
For someone that never answers MY questions....
you are VERY DEMANDING,,,!

I hope @FollowHisSteps ignores you completely since that is what you deserve.

How about this:

1. Become a moderator and then kick off who THIS SITE tells you can be kicked off.

2. Stick to discussing SCRIPTURE and THEOLOGY and stop wasting everybody's time.

3. Ignore persons you don't like....but whom you're supposed to LOVE, BTW,
one who got banned and came back under a different name is defending one who got banned and came back under a different name.

of course.

here is a thought for you and mr. jens- why don't you try handing out some apologizes for the one you have insulted and use honesty , like you whine about not having your questions answered , while they have been answered many times.

address and admit you were banned, apologize for the behavior that got you banned, then be honest,

I hope that is not to much to ask. you do claim to follow Christ.

I think truth and honesty and humility are kind of a big deal with the Lord.

are they a big deal for you?
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
10,162
6,571
113
I think I smell a Peter Jens reemergence.
Sinless perfection doctrine, vapid writing style, hidden profile, even screen name all point to that thrice banned non sinner!
When you have no integrity, and no conviction about repeatedly sinning while lying and deceiving.

When You make up a fake account and continue deceiving, you don't really have too big a problem with printing lies for all to see.

You probably also might want to make your election sure by seeing if the Holy Spirit actually dwells in you.


My 1st instinct seems to have been right. But I wanted to believe I was wrong and this individual was not Peterl. Peter J is an immensely sick, broken person. It appears he has changed his writing style just enough, made his profile private, and used slightly different wording, honing his deceptions better and better with each account he creates.

This person's evasive and non answer to a very straight forward and reasonable question, where he can simply say "no, I've never had an account here" IS actually his answer. Imagine, convincing yourself that creating an account after being banned is not sinful, but answering this question with a lie is sin.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,247
3,679
113
60
Amen! You seem to agree that works do not "initially" save us, but in post #81,275, you said that you push a "works plus grace gospel" to "maintain" your salvation. - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4064 That is problematic! Salvation "maintained" by works is "type 2 works salvation."

In post #86,537, you stated Jesus sets conditions on our salvation then went on to say it is NOT a gift, but a prize we get at the end. You also said we can say we have it now....but we cannot claim it till we have earned it. *That is also problematic! - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4327#post-3853939 Salvation is a gift that we freely accept (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9) and not a prize that we earn based on the merits of our performance.

Of course we are supposed to obey God. When did I say that we are not supposed to obey God? Why would I need to reply to that long list of verses you posted? I don't have a problem with those verses you posted and none of them teach salvation by works. I could add a couple more verses off the top of my head to your list:

Matthew 5:16 - Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

Titus 3:8 - The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.

If you believe that one or more of those verses in your list does teach salvation either "obtained" or "maintained" by works, then we could go over them one at a time. You already stated in this post that works do not save, although when compared to other statements you made in other posts it comes across as sugar coated double talk.

Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures, was buried, and rose again the third day according to the scriptures. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) His FINISHED WORK OF REDEMPTION is sufficient and complete to save believers. It's up to us to receive Him through faith/believe the gospel. That is how we obtain salvation. The Christian life is not about getting saved then doing nothing and it's also not about doing something to help Jesus save us either.

Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't reach entire sanctification/sinless perfection in this lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1)

Hebrews 12:14 - Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. I often hear works-salvationists quote this translation of the Bible in their effort to teach that "in addition" to placing our faith in Jesus Christ, we must also be "holy enough" in of ourselves if we expect to see the Lord -- works salvation. Yet that is not what Paul is teaching. The NASB (as you quoted from) reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

To be "sanctified" is to be "set apart, made holy." Without justification, there is no sanctification. Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Yet we also have progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor. So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, a remaining need for practical, progressive holiness, in regards to our ongoing sanctification in respect to spiritual growth towards maturity in Christ.

End of part 1.
I love how you deliver the Gospel Mailman :)...xox...
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
@mailmandan
Yeah. I'm pretty tired of hearing about banned people coming back.
I like to discuss scripture and theology....
It gets boring...ya know?
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
one who got banned and came back under a different name is defending one who got banned and came back under a different name.

of course.

here is a thought for you and mr. jens- why don't you try handing out some apologizes for the one you have insulted and use honesty , like you whine about not having your questions answered , while they have been answered many times.

address and admit you were banned, apologize for the behavior that got you banned, then be honest,

I hope that is not to much to ask. you do claim to follow Christ.

I think truth and honesty and humility are kind of a big deal with the Lord.

are they a big deal for you?
You sound like what @dcontroversal talks about to me....

A fruit-inspector.
Worry about your own soul...and not eveybody else's.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
My 1st instinct seems to have been right. But I wanted to believe I was wrong and this individual was not Peterl. Peter J is an immensely sick, broken person. It appears he has changed his writing style just enough, made his profile private, and used slightly different wording, honing his deceptions better and better with each account he creates.

This person's evasive and non answer to a very straight forward and reasonable question, where he can simply say "no, I've never had an account here" IS actually his answer. Imagine, convincing yourself that creating an account after being banned is not sinful, but answering this question with a lie is sin.
You sound like what @dcontroversal talks about to me....

A fruit-inspector.
Worry about your own soul...and not eveybody else's.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
My 1st instinct seems to have been right. But I wanted to believe I was wrong and this individual was not Peterl. Peter J is an immensely sick, broken person. It appears he has changed his writing style just enough, made his profile private, and used slightly different wording, honing his deceptions better and better with each account he creates.

This person's evasive and non answer to a very straight forward and reasonable question, where he can simply say "no, I've never had an account here" IS actually his answer. Imagine, convincing yourself that creating an account after being banned is not sinful, but answering this question with a lie is sin.
You sound like you think you know me.
"immensely sick, broken person" - such a very strange assessment of someone even if you knew them lol

Now you would have thought forums such as these are about discovering more about
Jesus and not trying to prove points over one another. But then much needs to become
real in peoples lives, before the truth of His life can actually break through.

Whatever I share, I suspect this is actually about spiritual reality and not anything else.
God bless, may the Lord and His grace fill you life with His Holiness.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Why do I come to forums?

Because the Lord blesses me unbelievably in sharing His good news, Amen.
I hope that you likewise can find His blessing and anointing in all that you do.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
10,162
6,571
113
You sound like you think you know me.
"immensely sick, broken person" - such a very strange assessment of someone even if you knew them lol

Now you would have thought forums such as these are about discovering more about
Jesus and not trying to prove points over one another. But then much needs to become
real in peoples lives, before the truth of His life can actually break through.

Whatever I share, I suspect this is actually about spiritual reality and not anything else.
God bless, may the Lord and His grace fill you life with His Holiness.

Ok. My last post to you. This is about as close to admission that you are indeed the multiple-banned person Peter J. that I am likely to get.

I sincerely hope you get the help you need. I obviously can't control what others do, but I hope they put you and Fran on ignore like I have.

You 2 can be together for as long as you can stand each other.

To others, do not let this poster color your view of Nazarene Churches. As I have said, they have some things I don't agree with, but they are wonderful, Holy Spirit filled people.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Amen! You seem to agree that works do not "initially" save us, but in post #81,275, you said that you push a "works plus grace gospel" to "maintain" your salvation. - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4064 That is problematic! Salvation "maintained" by works is "type 2 works salvation."

You don't have to put the post no.....I know what I believe and say. I ask for post no's when some accuse me of having said something that is not even in my vocabulary.

Yes. Once again....I believe, and the N.T. teaches that once we become born again...we re to obey God and this means doing good works/deeds, as He so wishes us to do. He certainly does not want us to do evil....and some change in us should be present.

Type 2 works salvation is biblical.
Did you by any chance see all those verses I posted yesterday?

Otherwise I'll post them again.

In post #86,537, you stated Jesus sets conditions on our salvation then went on to say it is NOT a gift, but a prize we get at the end. You also said we can say we have it now....but we cannot claim it till we have earned it. *That is also problematic! - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4327#post-3853939 Salvation is a gift that we freely accept (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9) and not a prize that we earn based on the merits of our performance.

Well, Dan, it might be problematic to you,,,,but it's what the N.T. teaches.
Faith is the gift.
Salvation is free ---- this is JUSTIFICATION.
Keeping it is not free ----- this is SANCTIFICATION and this requires our cooperation. It takes two to tango.

What I said is that we can know NOW that we are saved,,,,based on the CONDITIONS Jesus has given to us in His Holy Word.....However, we cannot claim salvation till the end. If we can claim it now...how is it hope? Romans 8:24 We're still alive.
If I decide to stop serving God down the line.....will I still be saved??
No.


Of course we are supposed to obey God. When did I say that we are not supposed to obey God? Why would I need to reply to that long list of verses you posted? I don't have a problem with those verses you posted and none of them teach salvation by works. I could add a couple more verses off the top of my head to your list:

Matthew 5:16 - Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

Titus 3:8 - The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.

If you believe that one or more of those verses in your list does teach salvation either "obtained" or "maintained" by works, then we could go over them one at a time. You already stated in this post that works do not save, although when compared to other statements you made in other posts it comes across as sugar coated double talk.

It's not double talk. The problem arises because some get justfctn and sanctfcn mixed up.
It's imperative to the Christian faith that the difference be understood.
I can't force you to understand it.

I've posted it many many times. Those that do not want to believe that there is the condition of BELIEVING in maintaining one's salvation will read right through the posts.
Obeying is believing.
Believing is obeying.
If obedience to God was not important,,,,Paul and Jesus and the others would not have spoken about it in EVERY leetter in the N.T. If one is saved forever....why bother???


Here's a link for anyone interested in learning the difference:

http://www.differencebetween.net/mi...nce-between-justification-and-sanctification/

Also, as I've said many times before.....
IF you agree that we need to obey God,,,,WHY do you argue with me?
Really....WHY are you arguing this?



Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures, was buried, and rose again the third day according to the scriptures. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) His FINISHED WORK OF REDEMPTION is sufficient and complete to save believers. It's up to us to receive Him through faith/believe the gospel. That is how we obtain salvation. The Christian life is not about getting saved then doing nothing and it's also not about doing something to help Jesus save us either.

Agreed.
We are saved by Jesus' sacrifice.....no work involved.
We are maintained by obeying God......work involved.


Did you know that this has gotten to the point that now some churches teach that FAITH is a work?
and BELIEVE is a work?


Will Jesus find any faith when He returns? (unless, of course, HE PROVIDES EVERYTHING)


Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't reach entire sanctification/sinless perfection in this lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1)

Oh. You're expecting to reach entire sanctification in THIS LIFETIME!
Good Luck.

No sir. If sanctification stops.....Justification dies with it.
They are intertwined.
Justfctn leads to sanctfcn.
If we STOP being sanctified...it means we no longer believe in God.
It means we no longer are living up to God's condition of believing and obeying in Him.
If we don't hear our shepherd's voice...we've become like the lost sheep.
LOST....

Jesus didn't waste His breath on parables for nothing.


Hebrews 12:14 - Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. I often hear works-salvationists quote this translation of the Bible in their effort to teach that "in addition" to placing our faith in Jesus Christ, we must also be "holy enough" in of ourselves if we expect to see the Lord -- works salvation. Yet that is not what Paul is teaching. The NASB (as you quoted from) reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

To be "sanctified" is to be "set apart, made holy." Without justification, there is no sanctification. Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Your first paragraph proves my point....without sanctification no man will see God. I'm not posting scripture because it'll take me forever to answer you if I look for the verses that are coming to my mind....

As to your second paragraph....
There's no such thing as POSITIONALLY in the N.T.
Here's the problem...
We like to read the bible and make believe we're theologians and understand it all.
You know very well that if I stopped right now, I could find MANY verses that state our sanctification is IN THE FUTURE (of this life)......
So,,,which is it. (you have the only one about sanctfctn already being accomplished BTW)
Here's how it is:

We need to stop just reading the bible and start learning some theology.
It took theologians to come up with the Trinity.

It took theologians to figure out Jesus was God in the flesh.
It took theologians to figure out what the Kingdom of God is.
It took theologians to understand the meaning of SANCTIFICATION since Paul used the word in TWO DIFFERENT TIME FRAMES.....

Was Paul not thinking straight....or do we just need some help to understand what he was saying?

Yet we also have progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor. So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, a remaining need for practical, progressive holiness, in regards to our ongoing sanctification in respect to spiritual growth towards maturity in Christ.

Agreed. And you even posted verses showing that sanctification is FUTURE and ongoing.
Thanks! Saved me some looking them up.

We are righteous in Christ. We are the righteousness of Christ. Christ is our righteousness.
As long as we ARE IN CHRIST.....
Christ is the LIFE...

No Christ.....No LIFE.
End of part 1.
Part 1 !!!

I'll reply in red.
Click to expand.....
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
This answer is completely evasive. The exact point of the question was to NOT judge you, but to hear from your heart.

I'll try ONE more time, and will recognize that if you do not answer yeah or nay, that you have in fact deceived.

Have you had account/accounts here before, and if so, have you been banned before?
Have you had any sexual thoughts lately?

If you don't answer yeah or nay,,,,we will all recognize that you have IN FACT had them.