Not By Works

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Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
Everyone should pay attention to your dishonesty and lies instead.....quote me where I even come close to implying the drivel you peddle Seoche.....and eternal or everlasting as applied to the GIFT OF LIFE AND FAITH does not mean temporal, genius..........
Scriptures please.

...All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 3:16-17

...Let God be true...God cannot be mocked...

...He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you HYPOCRITES; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; THEIR TEACHINGS ARE BUT RULES TAUGHT BY MEND.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “YOU HAVE A FINE WAY OF SETTING ASIDE THE COMMANDS OF GOD in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. Thus YOU NULLIFY THE WORD OF GOD by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.” Mark 7:6-13
I already explained this to you in post #91,552. - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4578#post-3871879

1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already have come to know Him/already saved - demonstrative evidence) if we keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. The Greek word for "keep" is "tereo" (Strong's #5083) which means to guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. It does not mean sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time, as sinless perfectionists teach. 1 John 2:4 - The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

*Do you believe that you perfectly obey ALL the commandments of the Lord? :unsure:
*Do you also believe that you will be saved based on the merits of obeying ALL the commandments of the Lord? :unsure:

1 John 2:6 - the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. (NASB) Perverting the gospel by teaching salvation by works is not walking in the same manner as Jesus walked. :cautious:

1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. *Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. *Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God. *Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In vs. 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother. *Notice that walks in darkness, hates his brother is connected to children of the devil.

You need to stop confusing DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture. The end result is salvation by works/works righteousness/perversion of the gospel.

Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16)

Romans 10:1 - Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES.

1 Corinthians 1:21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who BELIEVE.
You quoted:

*DO YOU BELIEVE" that you perfectly obey ALL the commandments of the Lord? :unsure:
*DO YOU also BELIEVE that you will be saved based on the merits of obeying ALL the commandments of the Lord? :unsure:

Do you "LOVE" God?...OBEY His commandments.

...And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But THE GREATEST OF THESE IS "LOVE".
1 Corinthians 13:13
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,996
113
Mailmandan, why do you even bother with this guy? He never really answers you. He just cuts and pastes the same stuff over and over again. He's here to preach and not debate.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
21,212
9,951
113
54
You quoted:

*DO YOU BELIEVE" that you perfectly obey ALL the commandments of the Lord? :unsure:
*DO YOU also BELIEVE that you will be saved based on the merits of obeying ALL the commandments of the Lord? :unsure:

Do you "LOVE" God?...OBEY His commandments.
So ANSWER THE QUESTIONS.

Yes I love God. Keeping (guarding, observing, watching over) His commandments is the demonstrative evidence of our love for God, but is not the basis or means by which we merit eternal life. Big difference.

...And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But THE GREATEST OF THESE IS "LOVE".
1 Corinthians 13:13
I already covered this in post #91,377 and you gave it a positive rep as "useful."

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4569
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
21,212
9,951
113
54
Mailmandan, why do you even bother with this guy? He never really answers you. He just cuts and pastes the same stuff over and over again. He's here to preach and not debate.
It's obvious why he is here, but just for the sake of others, I will respond to him from time to time. ;)
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,502
2,576
113
Good church day today!

@VCO I read you have been involved in prison ministry, I would like to THANK YOU for your service.

S.H.U is a TOUGH PLACE to be in. In fact, being locked up anywhere is tough. Ive found that levels 3 and 4 are the worst, they have just enough freedom for things to pop off, and they house violent inmates.

Meeting people like you in the system would have changed my world a lot quicker!
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,199
113
More honest than those who have been banned and back under new names pal....and if you cannot see where I stand by all that I have written you are either blind or cannot understand English........
I am sorry, you have not been clear about what you really believe in how we should
walk as believers or that our goal is to walk like Jesus.

You are keen to contribute destructive comments which add nothing to a discussion.
Are you afraid of true discussion and positions?
I am very open and stand by the Nazarene Church declaration of faith. If one wants to
say it is a deceived doctrine of faith, you have to point our where and how, or else it is
just propoganda.

And you cannot answer how we should live. All I am looking for is a simple commitment
to walk like Jesus or its rejection, but it seems this level of honesty is beyond you. So be it.
Paul was simple, love fulfils the law. Again to support such an idea is a simple yes or no,
but this is beyond you.

I doubt therefore you know really what you stand for, unlike myself, it is hard not to see
in detail both the theology or the goal, which is what it means to walk in the light, and
shine with Jesus working in our hearts, Amen, and glory to Him.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,996
113
I am sorry, you have not been clear about what you really believe in how we should
walk as believers or that our goal is to walk like Jesus.

You are keen to contribute destructive comments which add nothing to a discussion.
Are you afraid of true discussion and positions?
I am very open and stand by the Nazarene Church declaration of faith. If one wants to
say it is a deceived doctrine of faith, you have to point our where and how, or else it is
just propoganda.

And you cannot answer how we should live. All I am looking for is a simple commitment
to walk like Jesus or its rejection, but it seems this level of honesty is beyond you. So be it.
Paul was simple, love fulfils the law. Again to support such an idea is a simple yes or no,
but this is beyond you.

I doubt therefore you know really what you stand for, unlike myself, it is hard not to see
in detail both the theology or the goal, which is what it means to walk in the light, and
shine with Jesus working in our hearts, Amen, and glory to Him.

Can you go a single day without sinning? (think hard before you answer as lying is a sin).

Until you can go for even a day without sin, save your flowery talk and self-righteous platitudes.
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
So ANSWER THE QUESTIONS.

Yes I love God. Keeping (guarding, observing, watching over) His commandments is the demonstrative evidence of our love for God, but is not the basis or means by which we merit eternal life. Big difference.

I already covered this in post #91,377 and you gave it a positive rep as "useful."

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4569
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Hebrews 10:26-27
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,199
113
My point being, if sinning were a factor in the retention of salvation - how much sinning would cause you to lose it?

If all sins were forgiven and attributed to Christ, and in return we are imputed His righteousness, how can we be condemned for the sin of failure to be obedient, with the resulting loss of salvation? Are all sins paid for except that sin?

And if failure to be obedient will cost the believer their salvation, then salvation is neither a gift, nor is grace unmerited.
Hi Budman,

You focus is on rules and check boxes, like a legalist. The point about the walk is its focus is on our
love of Jesus and learning His way. It strikes me the whole critical issue is that are we prepared to
change, are we prepared to listen and are we prepared to repent.

There is no achieving becoming like Christ if we refuse and are stubborn at any level. It takes time,
energy, effort, perseverance and sometimes our lives to overcome.

But the approach you seem to be supporting is actually giving up and saying there is no goal or
greater purpose of the cross other than accepting its reality. That is the sinners prayer and
entering heaven. Others would describe this as easy believism, all of which Paul condemned
and wept over.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,502
2,576
113
Can you go a single day without sinning? (think hard before you answer as lying is a sin).

Until you can go for even a day without sin, save your flowery talk and self-righteous platitudes.
I've gone a day without sinning, I was almost dying to pneumonia and was out! GOTCHA! :D
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,996
113
You focus is on rules and check boxes, like a legalist.
Nope. I focus on the fact you love to come off as obedient, admonishing others on how to live, when you're simply a wretched sinner just like the rest of us.

There is no achieving becoming like Christ if we refuse and are stubborn at any level. It takes time,
energy, effort, perseverance and sometimes our lives to overcome.
I'm sure you'll let us all know when you achieve what you demand of everyone else.

But the approach you seem to be supporting is actually giving up and saying there is no goal or
greater purpose of the cross other than accepting its reality. That is the sinners prayer and
entering heaven. Others would describe this as easy believism, all of which Paul condemned
and wept over.
Salvation is easy. God didn't make it hard for anyone. Why would He, if His desire is for all to be saved? Belief is all that is required. Not the yoke of the Law which you attempt to put us back under.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,199
113
Can you go a single day without sinning? (think hard before you answer as lying is a sin).
Until you can go for even a day without sin, save your flowery talk and self-righteous platitudes.
Hi Bud,

Being in the flesh for you is being in sin, so your question is irrelevant.
You are just asking do I breath.

And the deeper real question is do I judge myself? And the answer is no. I dwell in God and it is He
who convicts me of my approach. The deeper issue is for some one behaviour would be sinful, ie
eating meat, another being late for an appointment, yet this is not what my conscience would respond to.

Paul was keen to not upset the weaker brothers and to support them in love.
So before the Lord I cannot claim anything about being sinless, because I know only He can judge.
And this exposes your failure in focusing on the wrong question. The question is how can we serve our
Lord and follow His example and grow in this. If you focus on failure, you end up check box ticking, rather
than seeing the need the Lord is calling you to meet.
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,197
113
Good church day today!

@VCO I read you have been involved in prison ministry, I would like to THANK YOU for your service.

S.H.U is a TOUGH PLACE to be in. In fact, being locked up anywhere is tough. Ive found that levels 3 and 4 are the worst, they have just enough freedom for things to pop off, and they house violent inmates.

Meeting people like you in the system would have changed my world a lot quicker!
Bruh, I answered you post. Did you see it? Thoughts?
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,199
113
Nope. I focus on the fact you love to come off as obedient, admonishing others on how to live, when you're simply a wretched sinner just like the rest of us.

I'm sure you'll let us all know when you achieve what you demand of everyone else.

Salvation is easy. God didn't make it hard for anyone. Why would He, if His desire is for all to be saved? Belief is all that is required. Not the yoke of the Law which you attempt to put us back under.
Hi Budman,

I cannot bring to you a spiritual reality I live in. It maybe to you a yoke of the law, but to those
who walk in the Spirit and are transformed it is the joy of their salvation.

It is also why this is not really a right or wrong discussion, it is a discussion of spiritual realities.
We can only ever truly know our own. It is something I am very aware of and so are all those
who similar have entered by the gate and are walking the narrow path.

God bless you, and thankyou for showing me why this divide exists and how discussion and
debate can never bridge it, only revelation and spiritual rebirth in Him.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Wow....Very true, I never really saw it this before but it explains a lot but not in good way. :(
What could be good about believing in a God that creates humans and then banishes them to everlasting torment?

Did you ever notice what a holier than thou attitude they have?
I don't see this in other Christians....even the ones I don't agree with.
This is because they think they're better....
THEY understand what a sovereign God we serve and we can never question Him....
They figure,,,,what do WE know??
We just can't take it.

What a messed up theory.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,996
113
Being in the flesh for you is being in sin
Yep. You still have the "Old Man" just like the rest of us.

And the deeper real question is do I judge myself? And the answer is no.
You should. (2 Corinthians 13:5)

The question is how can we serve our
Lord and follow His example and grow in this. If you focus on failure, you end up check box ticking, rather
than seeing the need the Lord is calling you to meet.
When you equate obedience with the retention of salvation, you are in error. And all of your blabbing just to hear yourself talk isn't going to change that. You claim not to judge yourself, yet you live to judge others based upon a standard that exist only in your mind.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Hi Budman,

I cannot bring to you a spiritual reality I live in. It maybe to you a yoke of the law, but to those
who walk in the Spirit and are transformed it is the joy of their salvation.

It is also why this is not really a right or wrong discussion, it is a discussion of spiritual realities.
We can only ever truly know our own. It is something I am very aware of and so are all those
who similar have entered by the gate and are walking the narrow path.

God bless you, and thankyou for showing me why this divide exists and how discussion and
debate can never bridge it, only revelation and spiritual rebirth in Him.
The member you're addressing has the same problem with everyone who does not agree with him in every little which way.

He's told me the same stuff.
No amount of telling him something will make no difference because he does not LISTEN.
He already has his incorrect mind made up and that's it.

When did either one of us ever say we don't sin?
I'm sure we didn't.

This might also be the reason that the N.T. is not understood by some...
Maybe they're just too proud to accept that they have to bow down to someone/something greater than they are.

All I know is that I have better things to do....
How 'bout you?