Not By Works

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Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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I didn't think you were so confused that I would have to explain this to you.

But if I lose my temper and say a careless word one day.

...and help someone with an impure motive the next day.

...and commit a sin of omission one day

...in other words fail to live up to perfection, being an imperfect human being...

...and I confess my sins to God...and repent of them

is not the same as habitually lying, fornicating, murdering, cheating on my taxes, etc habitually and unrepentably.

If we conflate these two categories, we're all going to hell, because the unrighteousness shall not inherit the Kingdom, And Paul listed a list of sins and said such WERE some of you.
this is well put and is true. as i quoted above, there is such a thing as unintentional sin. willful rebellion is different.

the difference is the condition of the heart- born again people.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
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1 John 2:3- And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 3:14- We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not hisbrother abideth in death.

1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth 3:19. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
 

Macabeus

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Dec 27, 2018
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this is well put and is true. as i quoted above, there is such a thing as unintentional sin. willful rebellion is different.

the difference is the condition of the heart- born again people.
Your last sentence is my entire point in a nutshell.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
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Salvific faith is saving faith.....we are saved end of story.
Nice truism. Like saying a hungry dog is hungry.

But is all faith salvific faith? How do we know if our faith is salvific according to 1 John 2:3, 3:14, and 3:18?

I think we have established that everyone who said I was fruit inspecting were guilty of false accusations. Will there be any retractions? Of course not. It has been clearly shown that such people are not concerned with truth, but rather only care about defending their unbalanced theology. Not saying you are one, UG, but you did fall in with a mob effect with a bunch of people who this description is applicable.
 

Macabeus

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Dec 27, 2018
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The fact that I was falsely accused of "inspecting fruit" by several people, yet NO ONE can give a specific example of me doing so, is clear evidence that there are several people in these forums who have a herd mentality. This phenomena exists to such a degree that they will follow a lie merely because others said it, without testing it to see if it is true.

This needed to be pointed out, because I noticed that there is basically a "gang" here that gangs up on people who disagree with them. I guess that's OK, UNTIL you start propagating false accusations and insults. Then it becomes theological thuggery.

This thread is RIDDLED with theological thuggery.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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The fact that I was falsely accused of "inspecting fruit" by several people, yet NO ONE can give a specific example of me doing so, is clear evidence that there are several people in these forums who have a herd mentality to such a degree that they will follow a lie if others say it, without testing it to see if it is true.

This needed to be pointed out, because I noticed that there is basically a "gang" here that gangs up on people who disagree with them. I guess that's OK, UNTIL you start propagating false accusations. Then it becomes theological thuggery.
it is arguing in favor of sin while claiming not to do so.

thats what all the blogs are about today.

blog entry: why this bible warning doesnt mean what it says.

you will be maligned for contending for righteousness. just like the prophets in israel. you will be accepted in a bible study group if you say you are a habitual fornicator, they pat you on the back and say its ok, God will grant you the victory, eventually. but if you contend for righteousness your character will be maligned and you will be accused of all sorts of things.
 

Macabeus

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Dec 27, 2018
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it is arguing in favor of sin while claiming not to do so.

thats what all the blogs are about today.

blog entry: why this bible warning doesnt mean what it says.

you will be maligned for contending for righteousness. just like the prophets in israel. you will be accepted in a bible study group if you say you are a habitual fornicator, they pat you on the back and say its ok, God will grant you the victory, eventually. but if you contend for righteousness your character will be maligned and you will be accused of all sorts of things.
Yes it is. And it is also the act of grossly misrepresenting others as a mob, in order to support an unbalanced theology

I do not claim to be perfect. Everytime I type, I am teaching and reminding myself. But I am not speaking on my own authority when I quote the Bible. They should not conflate the message with the messenger. To say I am fruit inspecting by quoting the Bible is confusing me with the scriptures. The scriptures correct, rebuke, and admonish me daily. None of us have any authority other than the fact that we have been given the Word of God.

I truly hope that people will learn to examine what is being said before they follow a mob blindly.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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Yes it is. And it is also the act of grossly misrepresenting others as a mob, in order to support an unbalanced theology

I do not claim to be perfect. Everytime I type, I am teaching and reminding myself. But I am not speaking on my own authority when I quote the Bible. They should not conflate the message with the messenger. To say I am fruit inspecting by quoting the Bible is confusing me with the scriptures. The scriptures correct, rebuke, and admonish me daily. None of us have any authority other than the fact that we have been given the Word of God
amen brother. we (you and i) are not exempt from anything.

likewise: if we are living a life of fornication today, we(you and i) will not inherit the kingdom.

we arent just yelling at others saying thinking we are above the ordaining of God

its always if we say we have no sin we lie and the truth is not of us. well what about if we dont keep God's commandments we lie and the truth isnt in us? what about who loves the world the love of God isnt in him? what about those verses
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
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The only time I am thinking on a personal level and writing to someone's statement I address them as Mr. Macabeus, or Mr. FYH, you will see this in my post, otherwise I am always just writing from the general perspective.

My post was about my personal experience with fruit inspectors and that was what I was reflecting in my statement.
So why am I fruit inspecting when I never said Mr. or Mrs. in my comments? You put one standard on yourself and an entirely different standard on me. What is the word that describes that?
 

Macabeus

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Dec 27, 2018
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amen brother. we (you and i) are not exempt from anything.

likewise: if we are living a life of fornication today, we(you and i) will not inherit the kingdom.

we arent just yelling at others saying thinking we are above the ordaining of God

its always if we say we have no sin we lie and the truth is not of us. well what about if we dont keep God's commandments we lie and the truth isnt in us? what about who loves the world the love of God isnt in him? what about those verses
You can't quote those verses here, lest you should be called a fruit inspector.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Was the issue ever that God needed proof before He saves someone fully? If so then I totally missed the intent of the posts.
The issue is who needed to see the works. God, Self or Men?

What exactly do you mean save someone fully? Not trying to put you on the spot, but this IMO, is a curious statement.
Are we saved patially (Salvation is not assured and can be lost) or saved Fully (Eternal Security)

These seem to be the two sides of the argument.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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amen brother. we (you and i) are not exempt from anything.

likewise: if we are living a life of fornication today, we(you and i) will not inherit the kingdom.

we arent just yelling at others saying thinking we are above the ordaining of God

its always if we say we have no sin we lie and the truth is not of us. well what about if we dont keep God's commandments we lie and the truth isnt in us? what about who loves the world the love of God isnt in him? what about those verses
Ok I am confused

If we sin, We are not inherit the kingdom

If we say we have no sin, there is no truth in us (which means we can;t be in the kingdom)

If we do not keep Gods commands (which means we are sinning) We lie and there is no truth in us

I mean really

If I sin I am a liar

If I do not sin I am a liar

And if I sin I am not in th ekongdom.

what hope do we have? Or did you nt think before you posted?
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
478
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Ok I am confused

If we sin, We are not inherit the kingdom

If we say we have no sin, there is no truth in us (which means we can;t be in the kingdom)

If we do not keep Gods commands (which means we are sinning) We lie and there is no truth in us

I mean really

If I sin I am a liar

If I do not sin I am a liar

And if I sin I am not in th ekongdom.

what hope do we have? Or did you nt think before you posted?
macabeus already answered this good here:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4830#post-3897892

i already also posted leviticus the difference between willful rebellion high handed sin and unwillful sin. like accidenatlly going over speed limit due to ignorance, is not the same as adultery. the only reason people claim that is to justify sin while claiming not to justify sin.

both are true both are in the epistle of john. its about your life. if your life is characterized by keeping the commandments of God. nobody is expecting Jesus like obedience. God is expecting a clean heart yielding to Him to the best of their abilities, a loving serving humble servant. His commands are not grievous. remember the epistle of john was about gnostics who believed they had no sin in the spirit, only flesh had sin. much like some cults today teach.

1 corinthians 6:9-10
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
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705
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Ok I am confused

If we sin, We are not inherit the kingdom

If we say we have no sin, there is no truth in us (which means we can;t be in the kingdom)

If we do not keep Gods commands (which means we are sinning) We lie and there is no truth in us

I mean really

If I sin I am a liar

If I do not sin I am a liar

And if I sin I am not in th ekongdom.

what hope do we have? Or did you nt think before you posted?
If we commit the things listed by Paul in the verse Melach quoted, we will not inherit the Kingdom. That is in the Bible. It is not up for debate, or at least should not be. Such WERE some of us, but now we are washed, sanctified, justified, etc

If we say we have no sin we lie is also in the Bible, and I don't think we should put that up for debate.

The text says if we say that we know Him and do not keep His commands, we lie. This is in the Bible, and should not be put up for debate

If I sin, I am a liar is not in the scripture. It says if we say we know Him and sin (present, continual, progressive tense) we lie. This is in the Bible and should not be debated

The bible does not say if I do not sin, I am a liar, it says if I say I have no sin, I am a liar. This is in the Bible, and is not up for debate.

So if you cannot reconcile the verses you are quoting, the problem is in your understanding, not in what Melach said. Because you are basically accusing the Bible of contradicting itself, and when the Bible appears to contradict itself, the problem is not with the Bible, it is with our understanding of the Bible.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
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macabeus already answered this good here:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4830#post-3897892

i already also posted leviticus the difference between willful rebellion high handed sin and unwillful sin. like accidenatlly going over speed limit due to ignorance, is not the same as adultery. the only reason people claim that is to justify sin while claiming not to justify sin.

both are true both are in the epistle of john. its about your life. if your life is characterized by keeping the commandments of God. nobody is expecting Jesus like obedience. God is expecting a clean heart yielding to Him to the best of their abilities, a loving serving humble servant. His commands are not grievous. remember the epistle of john was about gnostics who believed they had no sin in the spirit, only flesh had sin. much like some cults today teach.

1 corinthians 6:9-10
Well said.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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Salvation is just not a ticket punch to heaven and then you can live as you please. You now belong to Jesus. You are bought with a price.
This was directed to me. That's why you didn't say "we".

As exampled by this next post:

Love for God makes your question unnecessary. If we love God, we will not sin in that manner.
And here is where you basically accuse me of not loving God for asking if one can sin so much as to lose salvation.

The Bible says to avoid foolish questions. Your question is foolish, like asking "how many times can I get caught cheating on my wife before she leaves me." A question like that is unnecessary when you love someone, whether man or God.
And the following is the crux of my arguement:

Yet the fruit we bear shows whether our faith is genuine or not and whether our conversion is genuine or not.
This applies to people in general as well as individuals as evidenced by you saying:

Everytime I type, I'm typing to myself as well as others.
And I even asked you if what you posted was directed at individuals:

Does the statement apply to individuals here or not?
And you said:

It applies to everyone.
Which does indeed make you a fruit inspector.

And then you went on to state I'm a liar for saying you are claiming if we don't produce fruit, whether generally or individually, our faith is not genuine.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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Still waiting for that apology, Macabeus.

Hopefully, when I get back from church, you will have posted it.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
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Stop avoiding the issue.
Can one sin so much that they will lose their salvation?
Yes or no?
My view is no. Salvation is lost when belief that Jesus will forgive you goes away, so faith
is no longer part of ones approach to Jesus.

How hard is it if one feels defeated and overwhelmed, can ones heart rise to ask the Lord
to forgive you, knowing it is likely you will fall again so soon after.

So many take the grace of God beyond the point of lose of faith, except who comes back
who has lost their faith. And the difference between Peter and Judas was faith.
Jesus prayed that Peter's faith held strong, though his impetuous nature got the better
of him, he knew though the Lord saw him as he was, he trusted Peter would come back,
and understand the conflict within him.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
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Which does indeed make you a fruit inspector.
Are we not our own fruit inspectors?
It would be sad if we claim so much in Christ, yet do not grasp enough to see how
it has changed us.

It is so encouraging when people have fallen so far into sin, see themselves in Christ
starting to walk in love and life. The joy that fills their heart knowing what God is doing
and how great that work is to sort out serious issues. Praise the Lord His hand brings so
much healing to those who open their hearts to Him. God bless you