Not By Works

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Macabeus

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24] Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
[25] To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen

Jude
Yep, another verse that teaches the doctrine of perserverance. God is able to keep us from falling. Therefore we can stand.
 

Macabeus

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Dec 27, 2018
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Post 99,766

Yes, DESCRIBING not prescribing. In Hebrews 3:14, we read - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. *Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast to Christ." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast to Christ."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrew Christians who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who held fast the confidence and hope firm to the end. Those faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty, but later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.(y)
SO you DO believe in the doctrine of perserverance, DC.

IN The last line, Mailmandan confirms the doctrine of "perserverance of the saints" DC. Expand the quote and read the part in red. That is a good summary of the doctrine of perserverance. Now you know what it means. And apparently you believe it, because you liked his post. ;)

Members who reacted to message #99766



ALL (2) POSITIVE (2)
 

Macabeus

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Sure I know the difference.....and I would not rake you over the coals as much if you spoke more like this......and left off the flippant, mouthy remarks.....!!
I see now that YOU do believe in the doctrine of perserverance. Look below for proof. I did a partial quote,but you can see that Mailmandan is clearly arguing for the doctrine of perserverance, and you liked his post, meaning you agree. You just did not know what "perserverance" actually taught.

mailmandan said:
(partial quote)... Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion. (y)
Members who reacted to message #99766



ALL (2) POSITIVE (2)
 

Macabeus

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Dec 27, 2018
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Post 99,766



SO you DO believe in the doctrine of perserverance, DC.

IN The last line, Mailmandan confirms the doctrine of "perserverance of the saints" DC. Expand the quote and read the part in red. That is a good summary of the doctrine of perserverance. Now you know what it means. And apparently you believe it, because you liked his post. ;)

Members who reacted to message #99766



ALL (2) POSITIVE (2)
Sorry Dan, this was meant to be addressed to DC.
 

FollowHisSteps

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And it sure didn't take him long to trot out the old "if you don't act a certain way, you might not be saved" nonsense.
Does a saint want to commit murder? Does a saint want to steal? Does a saint hate, envy, is full of jealousy?

If your heart is cleansed and you are walking in the light, your behaviour will show it. It is simply impossible
for it not to show, because our behaviour is rooted in our hearts and our desires.

45 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil
things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
Luke 6

10 Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe
God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5

The truth in Jesus is waiting, it is not hard to find, you just need to spend time and dedicate yourself to
Him and His ways, and He will make it plain.
 

OneOfHis

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Mar 24, 2019
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Matthew 7:22
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’

Yes brother, it is as clear as day.

They point to their works hoping to be justified but He NEVER knew them.... they never understood nor believed the truth.

So they were not covered by His blood, and like all who are not covered by Jesus will be seen in their sin.
 

FollowHisSteps

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The warning of not being known by Jesus, is simple.
Do what He tells you, follow His commands, love Him with all that you are, and you will
have eternal life. This is what it means to believe Him.

He told us to obey, that in obeying we love Him, that in communion with Him we find light,
life and love. And we obey because He has cleansed our hearts so love can flow, and we
do what He says because our hearts desire it, so it is not burdensome.

If following Jesus is burdensome, then ones heart is not in the right place yet.
I have been accused of saying obeying Jesus is loading on a burden impossible to carry.

Jesus is saying know Him, repent, let your emotional hurts and pain out and you will find
rest in Him. Some have called this psycho talk, as if this is not walking in the light, and
confessing ones sins, and desiring that God heals us, but this is the walk of salvation and
redemption. Only those who have never walked this path, do not know its meaning or
significance. And literally they do not have the Holy Spirit, because without repentance
and faith their is no reconciliation and redemption, no breaking and openness.

So my friends those who are not of the Lord oppose these very foundations in Jesus.
Jesus is Jonah to Nineveh.

32 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it;
for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.
Luke 11

39 He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign!
But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the
Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Matt 12
 

gb9

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Jan 18, 2011
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first paragraph is a total lie.

greek word for believe- pisteuo= basic meaning - to be persuaded of, to place confidence in, to intrust .

that is what it means to believe . the following commands, doing good works, repenting of sin are things that happen AFTER belief.

to any new and/or young Christ followers - be very careful to not fall for false teaching, man made lies that sound true when mixed with a pious and poetic speech.

watch out for poison in a pretty package.
 

mailmandan

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Apr 7, 2014
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first paragraph is a total lie.

greek word for believe- pisteuo= basic meaning - to be persuaded of, to place confidence in, to intrust .

that is what it means to believe . the following commands, doing good works, repenting of sin are things that happen AFTER belief.

to any new and/or young Christ followers - be very careful to not fall for false teaching, man made lies that sound true when mixed with a pious and poetic speech.

watch out for poison in a pretty package.
Amen! Unfortunately, too many people confuse "descriptive" passages of scripture with "prescriptive" passages of scripture and re-define "believe in Him/faith in Him" to include works and the end result is salvation by faith + works.

Here is an example below of someone (a Roman Catholic) who re-defines faith to "include" works:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

At first, this Roman Catholic claimed that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he contracted himself by making this statement above. His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above (after stating that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works) is just sugar coated double talk/Roman Catholic smoke and mirrors and equates to salvation through faith (his re-defined version of faith) + works. :cautious:

Other works-salvationists make the same error.
 

FollowHisSteps

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Feb 15, 2019
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It is very dangerous to listen to people who say words like "total lie" and then are not specific.

We are called to walk like Jesus. Our belief is not that we will start walking like Jesus but that
we are committed to the road that leads to this. Salvation is to know Him and to be like Him.

Now what you need to understand, is it always feels impossible, because without the Holy Spirit
it is impossible. And unbelievers who claim to know Jesus but cannot walk in His ways, prove by
their very walk they do not know Him.

10 You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.
1 Thess 2

1 Finally, brothers, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living.
Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more.
1 Thess 4

7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
1 Thess 4

The reason why we find love so hard is because of sin and our hard hearts. If you repent, open your hearts,
forgive, and let the Lords love heal you, what was impossible will become possible. We are our history, our
hurts, our defences, our expectations and our failures. Once Jesus changes these things, we are set free, a
prisoner no more.

Many prisoners will cry, you liar, you cannot be like this or do that from a pure heart, simply because they
cannot but that should never limit you in Christ. Step out and believe Him. Start to let the Holy Spirit change
you, heal you, transform you.

2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Rom 12

This is not a quick process, it takes faith, perseverance, patience, understanding, prayer, praise, testing yourself
and letting who you are speak forth to others, learning to be open, to take risks, to be meek and humble, to know
ones limitations and to help others to see. God bless you
 

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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2nd Samuel 12 thanks.....check it out

Well it looks like the aggravation of the opponents of A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES , is OVER.

I started talking about another subject they get angry about, and that is: They are wrong if they think we are Spiritual Israelites, BECAUSE GOD IS NOT FINISHED WITH ISRAEL. And they charismatics just BAILED ON ME. Oh well, I would rather they do that than continue with there false arguments.

I pointed out an unmistakable FLAW in there THEORY that we are Spiritual Israelites:


Here are some verses that are CRITICALLY IMPORTANT to PROVING that GOD IS NOT FINISHED WITH ISRAEL. AND NO, we are Not Spiritual Israelites. HE Continually calls us GENTILE Believers. LOOK IT UP. BUT YOU WILL SAY WE ARE GRAFTED IN, which means YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN ENGLISH WALNUT TREES GROWING IN CALIFORNIA. They are Grafted in to BLACK WALNUT ROOTS, and NEVER produce BLACK WALNUTS. So JUST because you are Grafted in DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE PART OF THE BLACK WALNUT ROOTS.



They do that because Black Walnuts have a DEEPER root system, so they can get more water, and Black Walnuts have more resistance to disease and are more resistant to insects that burrow into the roots. BUT THEY NEVER BECOME BLACK WALNUT TREES.


Verses that PERTAIN to ISRAEL, that PROVE God is not finished with Israel.


Jeremiah 23:7-8 (HCSB)
7 “The days are coming”—the LORD’s declaration—“when it will no longer be said, ‘As the LORD lives who brought the Israelites from the land of Egypt,’
8 but, ‘As the LORD lives, who brought and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the land of the north and from all the other countries where I had banished them.’ They will dwell once more in their own land.

2 Chronicles 30:8 (NIV)
8 Do not be stiff-necked, as your fathers were; submit to the LORD. Come to the sanctuary, which he has consecrated forever. Serve the LORD your God, so that his fierce anger will turn away from you.

Psalm 103:7-9 (HCSB)
7 He revealed His ways to Moses, His deeds to the people of Israel.
8 The LORD is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger and rich in faithful love.
9 He will not always accuse ⌊us⌋ or be angry forever.

Isaiah 62:5 (ESV)
5 For as a young man marries a young woman, so shall your sons marry you, and as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you.

John 10:16 (NASB)
16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold [the O.T. Assembly]; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. [at the Rapture]

The people He is talking are the last O.T. SAINTS. HE CALLS THEM SHEEP, the same as He calls us SHEEP. GUESS WHAT ELSE ? ? ?
I know you can look this up, but the WORD CHURCH was NEVER used in the Bible when it was originally published. HE ALSO CALLED US THE ASSEMBLY.

Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly [the N.T. Fold], and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it; [the O.T. Assembly is HIS first Fold]

Acts 10:34-36 (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: {He is Lord of all.}


YES, that means the sum total of both the O.T. Saints and the N.T. Saints are going to be BRIDE of Christ.

So, rather than answer, they just left. It has been three day, and no answer yet. Will keep checking it for a week, but it appears to be a dead thread.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
6,693
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113
It is very dangerous to listen to people who say words like "total lie" and then are not specific.

We are called to walk like Jesus. Our belief is not that we will start walking like Jesus but that
we are committed to the road that leads to this. Salvation is to know Him and to be like Him.

Now what you need to understand, is it always feels impossible, because without the Holy Spirit
it is impossible. And unbelievers who claim to know Jesus but cannot walk in His ways, prove by
their very walk they do not know Him.

10 You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.
1 Thess 2

1 Finally, brothers, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living.
Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more.
1 Thess 4

7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
1 Thess 4

The reason why we find love so hard is because of sin and our hard hearts. If you repent, open your hearts,
forgive, and let the Lords love heal you, what was impossible will become possible. We are our history, our
hurts, our defences, our expectations and our failures. Once Jesus changes these things, we are set free, a
prisoner no more.

Many prisoners will cry, you liar, you cannot be like this or do that from a pure heart, simply because they
cannot but that should never limit you in Christ. Step out and believe Him. Start to let the Holy Spirit change
you, heal you, transform you.

2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Rom 12

This is not a quick process, it takes faith, perseverance, patience, understanding, prayer, praise, testing yourself
and letting who you are speak forth to others, learning to be open, to take risks, to be meek and humble, to know
ones limitations and to help others to see. God bless you
i was very specific in what I referred to, you just dodge and defect like you always do. that is why I limit my interaction with you, you do want to have a actual conversation, just muse about your worthless feelings and emotions.

oh, and if you are being led by a sprit that tells you that you can be just like Jesus while in the flesh, then that is not the Holy Sprit .

we see in a mirror dimly., but then face to face.

but then. as in, the future. not in the flesh.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
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705
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Amen! Unfortunately, too many people confuse "descriptive" passages of scripture with "prescriptive" passages of scripture and re-define "believe in Him/faith in Him" to include works and the end result is salvation by faith + works.

Here is an example below of someone (a Roman Catholic) who re-defines faith to "include" works:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

At first, this Roman Catholic claimed that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he contracted himself by making this statement above. His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above (after stating that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works) is just sugar coated double talk/Roman Catholic smoke and mirrors and equates to salvation through faith (his re-defined version of faith) + works. :cautious:

Other works-salvationists make the same error.
Yes, people often misunderstood me because they confused my descriptive statements as being prescriptive ;)
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
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i was very specific in what I referred to, you just dodge and defect like you always do. that is why I limit my interaction with you, you do want to have a actual conversation, just muse about your worthless feelings and emotions.
oh, and if you are being led by a sprit that tells you that you can be just like Jesus while in the flesh, then that is not the Holy Sprit .
we see in a mirror dimly., but then face to face.
but then. as in, the future. not in the flesh.
I have no clue what gb9 is referring to, because as usual he has no intention of actually talking facts
or ideas, dodging the issue, whatever it is, and not addressing anything.

It is significant this declaration "a sprit that tells you that you can be just like Jesus while in the flesh"

Paul calls us to follow his example as he follows Jesus's example, ie we are to live like Jesus.
John said this

6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
1 John 2

This at first sounds impossible, except John is talking about attitudes and approaches which Jesus
lays out in the sermon on the mount.

Poor in spirit, mourning, meek, hungering after righteousness, merciful, pure in heart, peacemakers.
Their treasure is in heaven, they are not angry, but bless, they do not lust after sexual desire, they love their
enemies, they do their acts of righteousness in private not for show, they pray meaningful prayers expecting
the Lord hears and will answer, they forgive from the heart, they do not worry about wealth but the Lords ways,
they do not judge but desire to help and encourage others.
Matt 5 - 7

With a cleansed heart, purified and made whole through the Holy Spirit this is not impossible.
Sadly many would rather say what is possible in unbelief rather than walking in love and obedience and
actually seeing how far the Lord can take them. And it is this point, we walk by faith, knowing Jesus can do
the impossible, Amen.

To me it is clear gb9 has no faith to believe this is possible and would rather condemn and deny the power
of the cross rather than work with Jesus and walk in the Spirit. Praise the Lord He promises to complete His
work in our hearts, Amen

4 Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
James 1

6 that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
Phil 1
 

theanointedwinner

Well-known member
Nov 6, 2018
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Not knowing the hearts foundation of why this sin is appealing, is part if the problem <-- follow... Have nailed it on the head, on this one, fight smarter not harder!

to bad perfection cannot exist on Earth
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
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5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Phil 2

16 we have the mind of Christ
1 Cor 2

20 our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ
Phil 3

7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Phil 4

8 God can testify how I long for all of you with the affection of Christ Jesus
Phil 1

6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
1 John 2

3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:
1 John 2

Jesus is our hearts desire, His ways are our life, His love and security is the light in which we walk. Amen
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
2,848
845
113
Well it looks like the aggravation of the opponents of A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES , is OVER.

I started talking about another subject they get angry about, and that is: They are wrong if they think we are Spiritual Israelites, BECAUSE GOD IS NOT FINISHED WITH ISRAEL. And they charismatics just BAILED ON ME. Oh well, I would rather they do that than continue with there false arguments.

I pointed out an unmistakable FLAW in there THEORY that we are Spiritual Israelites:


Here are some verses that are CRITICALLY IMPORTANT to PROVING that GOD IS NOT FINISHED WITH ISRAEL. AND NO, we are Not Spiritual Israelites. HE Continually calls us GENTILE Believers. LOOK IT UP. BUT YOU WILL SAY WE ARE GRAFTED IN, which means YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN ENGLISH WALNUT TREES GROWING IN CALIFORNIA. They are Grafted in to BLACK WALNUT ROOTS, and NEVER produce BLACK WALNUTS. So JUST because you are Grafted in DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE PART OF THE BLACK WALNUT ROOTS.



They do that because Black Walnuts have a DEEPER root system, so they can get more water, and Black Walnuts have more resistance to disease and are more resistant to insects that burrow into the roots. BUT THEY NEVER BECOME BLACK WALNUT TREES.


Verses that PERTAIN to ISRAEL, that PROVE God is not finished with Israel.


Jeremiah 23:7-8 (HCSB)
7 “The days are coming”—the LORD’s declaration—“when it will no longer be said, ‘As the LORD lives who brought the Israelites from the land of Egypt,’
8 but, ‘As the LORD lives, who brought and led the descendants of the house of Israel from the land of the north and from all the other countries where I had banished them.’ They will dwell once more in their own land.

2 Chronicles 30:8 (NIV)
8 Do not be stiff-necked, as your fathers were; submit to the LORD. Come to the sanctuary, which he has consecrated forever. Serve the LORD your God, so that his fierce anger will turn away from you.

Psalm 103:7-9 (HCSB)
7 He revealed His ways to Moses, His deeds to the people of Israel.
8 The LORD is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger and rich in faithful love.
9 He will not always accuse ⌊us⌋ or be angry forever.

Isaiah 62:5 (ESV)
5 For as a young man marries a young woman, so shall your sons marry you, and as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you.

John 10:16 (NASB)
16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold [the O.T. Assembly]; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. [at the Rapture]

The people He is talking are the last O.T. SAINTS. HE CALLS THEM SHEEP, the same as He calls us SHEEP. GUESS WHAT ELSE ? ? ?
I know you can look this up, but the WORD CHURCH was NEVER used in the Bible when it was originally published. HE ALSO CALLED US THE ASSEMBLY.

Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly [the N.T. Fold], and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it; [the O.T. Assembly is HIS first Fold]

Acts 10:34-36 (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: {He is Lord of all.}


YES, that means the sum total of both the O.T. Saints and the N.T. Saints are going to be BRIDE of Christ.

So, rather than answer, they just left. It has been three day, and no answer yet. Will keep checking it for a week, but it appears to be a dead thread.
Hi vco,

Sounds like when people finished expressing their position you did not like this and want to continue
the discussion here. Are we not the people of God grafted into the vine? So as such we are the inheritors
of all the promises of Abraham, by being his spiritual descendants.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
2,848
845
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I notice small things. Small guys need big words "dense" "deception" "flapping".
Unfortunately it is these words that reflect the very failure the speaker is suffering from.
I wonder if the flapper will be flapping more today, lol :)
It is amusing to see his dense deceptive comments flowing so freely as if these general things
have content but are rather like thick sludge is a clear lagoon.

A bit like saying the elect are those who believe but not those who repent, turn from evil, do good
and obey Christ in all His commands. You might think this is the foundation of christian belief but
clearly not for flappers...... lol :D

If one truly lived a life of sin, and you saw Jesus and His light, wanting to be associated with sin would
be the last thing on ones mind. But for life long church folk, they despise things of faith rather than
sin, and these issues in their mind become bigger than evil itself, therefore it is no wonder they are
easily led astray, because like the pharisees their hearts obscure the heart of God from them.

God bless you brothers and sisters in Christ who live to please the living God, Amen.
 

theanointedwinner

Well-known member
Nov 6, 2018
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What if, an hour worth of worship can be condensed into a minute?

What if this applies self-recursively

How will the greatest commandment be obeyed?

We fall far too short! (Romans 3:23)
There is not a single moment in our life where we worship as intensely as we should

If salvation is by works we fall short, may we be thankful that we are saved by grace and not by works