Not By Works

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OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
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Yes, I'd kind of like to know who is saying works come before faith...:confused:
The implication that is being disputed is that salvation requires works... and is not only "by grace through faith"....


Some here falsely believe they will be justified before God by experiential righteousness and not solely by the imputed righteousness of Jesus.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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The implication that is being disputed is that salvation requires works... and is not only "by grace through faith"....


Some here falsely believe they will be justified before God by experiential righteousness and not solely by the imputed righteousness of Jesus.
AMEN......and then we have Seohce, Argueless back blathering on again falsely accusing us of telling people to not be obedient.......
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
1,431
2,208
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Thanks MIGO hahahah little sore...neck, right shoulder, arm, elbow, sternum and cut thumb full length.......I was like...wow that hurt HAHAH got right up and went back to work....no time to lay around on the ground in pain HAHAHHAHAHHAHA......probably be stiff tomorrow.....and NO....I did not cuss....HAHAHHAH ;)
goodness... you will be in my prayers with star and her family

i knew it was pretty bad if you mentioned it

(praise God for keepin you safe despite the fall)
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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goodness... you will be in my prayers with star and her family

i knew it was pretty bad if you mentioned it

(praise God for keepin you safe despite the fall)
Thanks migo.......much appreciated and as always returning the prayers for you all as well
 
Dec 27, 2018
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The implication that is being disputed is that salvation requires works... and is not only "by grace through faith"....


Some here falsely believe they will be justified before God by experiential righteousness and not solely by the imputed righteousness of Jesus.
Well I believe that justification is based WHOLLY on imputed righteousness, because you have to be justified and born of God before you can even begin to have experiential righteousness

Justification by imputed righteousness with progressive sanctification and preservation as continuing results of the Finished work of Christ
 
Dec 27, 2018
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The implication that is being disputed is that salvation requires works... and is not only "by grace through faith"....


Some here falsely believe they will be justified before God by experiential righteousness and not solely by the imputed righteousness of Jesus.
Salvation is by Grace through faith alone, but faith is not alone

We have perfect salvation through Christ and are positionally perfect in Him , and also continuing results that flow from it, preserving us and producing Christlikeness in us through Him (at least, that is God's intention in saving us):)
 
Dec 27, 2018
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Salvation is by Grace through faith alone, but faith is not alone

We have perfect salvation through Christ and are positionally perfect in Him , and also continuing results that flow from it, preserving us and producing Christlikeness in us through Him (at least, that is God's intention in saving us):)
Let's not forget one of God's INTENTIONS in saving us...

Acts 3:6 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

What is and was true for the Jews is also true for the Gentiles. God sends Jesus to bless us in turning us away, all of us from our iniquities. If you do not agree that repentance of sin is required for salvation, at least admit that it is one of God's intentions for us in saving us.

And before you say "repentance is something we do", remember, that believing is also something we do, Both believing and repenting BY THE GRACE OF GOD.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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Should we be emphasizing and focusing on "we are so secure that we cannot lose our salvation no matter how much we sin" or should we be emphasizing and focusing on "what is God's intention for me now that I am saved with such a great and perfect and finished salvation?

I think the latter choice is far better and more productive and healthy
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,641
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Should we be emphasizing and focusing on "we are so secure that we cannot lose our salvation no matter how much we sin" or should we be emphasizing and focusing on "what is God's intention for me now that I am saved with such a great and perfect and finished salvation?

I think the latter choice is far better and more productive and healthy
now, I see what you are saying here.

one of the things my church teaches that we are to do for others what God through Christ did for us.

we are to " one another one another", if that makes any sense...
 
Dec 27, 2018
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now, I see what you are saying here.

one of the things my church teaches that we are to do for others what God through Christ did for us.

we are to " one another one another", if that makes any sense...
I think we agree. Sorry for my lack of clarity in the past.

Blessings and peace.
 

corazondeldei

Active member
Apr 17, 2019
151
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OBEDIENCE is PART OF GOD's LOVE that the HOLY SPIRIT poured into out hearts (human spirit) at the birth of our spirit, which SAVED US the first moment we genuinely BELIEVED. Rom. 5:5

IT NEVER HAS BE PART OF SALVATION.

SAVED FIRST, then you learn to OBEY.
NIV1984 Philippians 3:12-16
Pressing on Toward the Goal Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

NIV1984 1 Peter 1:9
for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

NIV1984 2 John 1:9-11
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

NIV1984 1 John 2:3-6
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

Do you believe that we have to ask for forgiveness for the sins we commit every time and repent of them. That disobedience to His commands is the DEVIL'S work of deception from the beginning that separated us from God?

NIV1984 Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

Are born again Christians insusceptible of being DECEIVED and from turning away or abandoning the FAITH?

NIV1984 1 Timothy 4:1
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will ABANDON THE FAITH and follow DECEIVING SPIRITS and things taught by demons.

NIV1984 Matthew 24:10-14
At that time many will TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and DECEIVE MANY PEOPLE. Because of the increase of wickedness, THE LOVE OF MOST WILL GROW COLD, but HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

No deceiver would teach obedience to God and no true Christian would ever teach DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
4,585
113
Yes, I'd kind of like to know who is saying works come before faith...:confused:
Go back and look, their has been way more than I thought there would be. Granted, they are still in the minority, but quite a few. Most of them I have put on my permanent IGNORE LIST, after the second warning for being divisive.


Titus 3:9-11 (HCSB)
9 But avoid foolish debates, genealogies, quarrels, and disputes about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
10 Reject a divisive person after a first and second warning,
11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sins, being self-condemned.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
4,585
113
NIV1984 Philippians 3:12-16
Pressing on Toward the Goal Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

NIV1984 1 Peter 1:9
for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

NIV1984 2 John 1:9-11
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

NIV1984 1 John 2:3-6
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

Do you believe that we have to ask for forgiveness for the sins we commit every time and repent of them. That disobedience to His commands is the DEVIL'S work of deception from the beginning that separated us from God?

NIV1984 Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

Are born again Christians insusceptible of being DECEIVED and from turning away or abandoning the FAITH?

NIV1984 1 Timothy 4:1
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will ABANDON THE FAITH and follow DECEIVING SPIRITS and things taught by demons.

NIV1984 Matthew 24:10-14
At that time many will TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and DECEIVE MANY PEOPLE. Because of the increase of wickedness, THE LOVE OF MOST WILL GROW COLD, but HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

No deceiver would teach obedience to God and no true Christian would ever teach DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD.


I have a suggestion for you, GO BACK AND READ ALL OF EVERYONE's posts from the beginning that you suspect we are deceivers teaching disobedience to GOD. YOU WILL FIND OUT THERE ARE ALMOST NO SUCH PEOPLE HERE. THEN COME BACK AND APOLOGIZE.

Obedience is a NATURAL part of OUR GOD GIVEN CHRISTIAN LOVE, Rom. 5:5. PERIOD.

Our Human Spirit is Born Again by the Holy Spirit the moment we genuinely BELIEVE, and the Spirit births spirit, that has Eternal Life in it. Which is SALVATION of the Human Spirit. That Eternal Life, will dominate the Human Mind, motivating us to Strive to walk like JESUS, in OBEDIENCE. THAT GOD GIVEN LOVE, will NATURALLY COME OUT IN THE FORM OF OBEDIENCE. That is Sanctification, and we will not be Perfectly Sanctified until the Resurrection. Most of us HERE Believe that with our whole Heart. Therefore YOU ARE A HOUND DOG BARKING UP THE WRONG TREE, and you need to apologize.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
4,585
113
Doing great other than falling off of a sprayer today in the driveway and hitting the ground with a thud from about 6 feet off the ground HAH.....little sore HAH.......not as easy to do at 52
Oh my, I know what you feel like, I feel off of a ladder once. I already read ahead and know you are just sore. But You have got to be more careful, because, it will get worth as each year passes. I was about 65 when I fell of the ladder. My wife to me to go out and by the SAFEST LADDER that I can by. I DID, and I have never regretted it.

One of these:

https://d1y6jrbzotnyjg.cloudfront.n...YBhl6avRdBQ_&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJ62XWKZ35EOVO4XA
 

corazondeldei

Active member
Apr 17, 2019
151
33
28
56
I have a suggestion for you, GO BACK AND READ ALL OF EVERYONE's posts from the beginning that you suspect we are deceivers teaching disobedience to GOD. YOU WILL FIND OUT THERE ARE ALMOST NO SUCH PEOPLE HERE. THEN COME BACK AND APOLOGIZE.

Obedience is a NATURAL part of OUR GOD GIVEN CHRISTIAN LOVE, Rom. 5:5. PERIOD.

Our Human Spirit is Born Again by the Holy Spirit the moment we genuinely BELIEVE, and the Spirit births spirit, that has Eternal Life in it. Which is SALVATION of the Human Spirit. That Eternal Life, will dominate the Human Mind, motivating us to Strive to walk like JESUS, in OBEDIENCE. THAT GOD GIVEN LOVE, will NATURALLY COME OUT IN THE FORM OF OBEDIENCE. That is Sanctification, and we will not be Perfectly Sanctified until the Resurrection. Most of us HERE Believe that with our whole Heart. Therefore YOU ARE A HOUND DOG BARKING UP THE WRONG TREE, and you need to apologize.
Apologize for asking questions?

NIV1984 1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
 
Dec 27, 2018
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876
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Go back and look, their has been way more than I thought there would be. Granted, they are still in the minority, but quite a few. Most of them I have put on my permanent IGNORE LIST, after the second warning for being divisive.


Titus 3:9-11 (HCSB)
9 But avoid foolish debates, genealogies, quarrels, and disputes about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
10 Reject a divisive person after a first and second warning,
11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sins, being self-condemned.
I see people that teach obedience to God AFTER justification and regeneration, but no one that teaches works come before faith (at least I haven't read anyone say that, and I've been reading.

Acts 3:22-23- For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Salvation is by Grace through faith alone, but faith is not alone

We have perfect salvation through Christ and are positionally perfect in Him , and also continuing results that flow from it, preserving us and producing Christlikeness in us through Him (at least, that is God's intention in saving us):)
The truth is people always struggle with their lives and as Paul describes

21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law;
23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the
law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
Rom 7

Sadly some suggest that we never move beyond this aspiration, and it is a lie and evil to
suggest walking in the Spirit and flowing with the gifts of the Spirit can be a reality.

Such people invent labels and then pursue an agenda to root out deceivers. It is here that
the root of division has been sown. Jesus was very specific. The good seed planted in the
good soil will grow and produce its fruit. The enemy has sown weeds but they will not
defeat or effect the good seed, and rooting it out will damage the good seed.

So if one aspires to fulfil the Holy Spirits at work in our hearts, is deemed evil deception and
worthless, you should know these are reprobates who are talking, who do not know Jesus.

I am crucified with Christ, I have His patience, endurance, love and hope because the Holy
Spirit lives within me. So let no one be deceived, we are to do this

24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.
Heb 10

The false teaching being spread is that self-righteousness is the evil that is defeating the
church, rather than nothing is defeating the church, we are following Jesus and His ways,
full of the Holy Spirit and His love.

The only issue has always been repentance, sorrow, faith and following Jesus. Amen.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
How vulnerable are we?
I have two friends, one very defensive and the other apparently open.
I talked to one about sharing their passions with others in a 3, and listening to the other 2.
One lasted one session, and never return, while the other was reluctant, but is actually starting
to open up.

I talked with another very talented brother, and they accepted the idea of helping others, but
not of needing support or encouragement from others. But then if one needs control, and never
being vulnerable, knowing you are giving, rather than receiving is safe.

In Jesus it is easy to come to our conclusions, and to take our stand, but to open up and begin
to be real and vulnerable, that is the way of the cross, and beginning to understand the Lord.

On the mount of transfiguration, people miss, Moses and Elijah discuss what is about to happen
with Jesus. God is always open, always vulnerable, always willing to listen. It has taken me time
to realise, we need to be like this. Jesus listened and interacted with Judas, no matter where he
would go, and where his heart was.

Our walks are something individual and also full of wonder and discovery. As this forum demonstrates
it is easy to miss-understand and jump to the wrong conclusions, and end up writing off the wrong
people for the wrong reasons. Praise God, He is always open and listening, at least to those who come
with a humble, contrite and listening heart, Amen.

17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
Psalm 51

18 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire;
to darkness, gloom and storm;
19 to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged
that no further word be spoken to them,
20 because they could not bear what was commanded: "If even an animal touches the
mountain, it must be stoned."
21 The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, "I am trembling with fear."
22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God.
You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God,
the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect
24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a
better word than the blood of Abel.
25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks.
Heb 12

There is nothing here of ones own pride, only wonder, at such a work that God would do in us
His people. Are we righteous men made perfect?

I am still not sure, and wonder at what we are in Christ, and how we walk. Praise God that I have
space to ask, and explore and discover in Him our weakness and His great strength and work in us.
Amen