Not By Works

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Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
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I will not say that works prove our salvation, but I will agree with John when he says...

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not hisbrother abideth in death.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

It does not say this is how I will know about you or anyone else, or how you will know about me. It is talking about how I can KNOW that I know Him, how I can know that I have passed from death to life, and how I can know if I am of the truth, and how you can know the same things about yourself. These all go well with texts about EXAMINING OURSELVES, not so much each other. :)
And if I believed in works salvation or that my standing with God was based on performance, I would have gotten miserably discouraged and would have given up thirty years ago. I probably would be in a mental institution due to severe and crippling depression. But I do not believe such things. :)

I am not blind as to the PERFECTIONS OF CHRIST, who is the model. When I compare myself to Him, and the more I learn of Him, the more I realize how wretched I am and in need of GRACE.
 
Feb 15, 2019
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Whether verb or noun we do not work on perfecting ourselves, that is the point, Jesus is the source we draw from.

All I am trying to do is get you to see that you do not work for what you already have.... we do not learn/practice to sin less and less.

...we are sinless in Christ....John is boldly proclaiming we are born of God, our new nature is pure and holy, live in it and express it outward every day and let it dominate our experience and lives!!

How you interpret scripture is closer to @FollowHisSteps and Mr. VCO that is no fun and not what God wants for us.
"we are sinless in Christ" - this statement is the same as many are declaring.
"live in it and express it outward every day and let it dominate our experience and lives!!"
this is the same as the words practice it.

I fear that divisions are created where there are none.
We live with a heart that naturally has desires and aspirations that are worldly.
If we sow to the Spirit, we reap from the spirit, if we sow to the flesh we reap from the flesh.

Praise the Lord that we are aspiring to reflect the work of God in our lives, Amen.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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For by one sacrifice he has PERFECTED FOREVER those who are BEING SANCTIFIED.

WHo does the work of sanctifying? Its not us, While we have to listen to and do what God asks us to do (study, walk, trust) it is all in and through the power of God. By our own power we can do nothing.

 

Macabeus

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Dec 27, 2018
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I do not for one minute accept your interpretation of John, it is not at all about the "perseverance" of the saints, a word that appears nowhere in the text.

Right.......... "may fall into sin but not make sin his home"....what exactly does that even mean...do you have number of days for this or which sin it is?

Ultimately this is what you are arguing...

accept eternal security, yet thinks that someone who practices “habitual sin” is going to hell and therefore will probably conclude that such person was never saved to begin with.

So, one may believe in eternal security, but ultimately one is holding to salvation by works, because that is what salvation "looks like"
For those who don't believe in perserverance of the saints...

1. We are Christ's house if we hold fast our confidence and hope unto the end.

Hebrews 3:6-but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house-- whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

2. How and why do we hold fast these things unto the end?

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Everyone who the Father calls, He also sanctifies and glorifies.

Philippians 1:6- 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Every work the Father begins, He finishes.

Hebrews 7:25- Wherefore he is able also to save them to theuttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

He is able to save us forever and completely, BECAUSE He forever lives to make intercession for us.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
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For by one sacrifice he has PERFECTED FOREVER those who are BEING SANCTIFIED.

WHo does the work of sanctifying? Its not us, While we have to listen to and do what God asks us to do (study, walk, trust) it is all in and through the power of God. By our own power we can do nothing.
Yes, we are sanctified BY GOD through faith. (Acts 26:18)

It is a work of God, just like regeneration, Justification, adoption, preservation, and glorification, all are works of God, performed on ALL Of His Elect. (Romans 8:28-30, Philippians 1:6)

but we are also called to sanctify God in our hearts.
 

Macabeus

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Dec 27, 2018
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What part of john are you talkin about?
1 John 3. There is no mention of two natures of the believer in John 3, one nature practicing sin and one nature practicing righteousness. It is talking about the fact that those who have been born of God practice righteousness, and those who practice sin have not been born of God. The verb "practice" in both cases is a present, continuous, progressive tense, either continual or ititerative and durative, not instances of sin or righteousness here and there.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
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1 John 3. There is no mention of two natures of the believer in John 3, one nature practicing sin and one nature practicing righteousness. It is talking about the fact that those who have been born of God practice righteousness, and those who practice sin have not been born of God. The verb "practice" in both cases is a present, continuous, progressive tense, either continual or ititerative and durative, not instances of sin or righteousness here and there.
1 John 3 is not talking about two natures in a Christian, it is talking about two natures in two different types of individuals. One individual who practices (continual, progressive, frequentive, habitual verb) righteousness because he or she is born of God, and one individual who practices (continual, progressive, frequentive, habitual verb) sin, because they have not been born of God.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Okay, it is Tomorrow. I think I found the an answer to the Confusion about the word PRACTICE.

Greek does not follow the same formula for words that have a VERB form of the Word PRACTICE, and the NOUN form of the Word PRACTICE. You have discovered one of the greatest weaknesses of translating from GREEK to English. When Practice is translated in it's NOUN FORM, it is NOT the same word, it is a DIFFERENT WORD IN THE GREEK. This is why some foreigners have GREAT DIFFICULTY learning English, because we have TOO many words that sound the same with TOTALLY different meanings. There are NUMEROUS words that can be translated to the Noun form of Practice but NONE OF THEM ARE EVEN REMOTELY SPELLED THE SAME as the VERB.

πρακτική noun
praktikí̱ experienceπράξη noun
práxi̱ act, transaction, action, deed, effectάσκηση noun
áskisi exercise, drillεξάσκηση noun
exáski̱si̱ trainingσυνήθεια noun
syní̱theia custom, habit, rote, convention, useχρήση noun
chrísi use, usageπείρα noun
peíra experience, knackέθιμο noun
éthimo customπελατεία noun

efarmózo̱ apply, practise μάθηση noun


THE WORD poieō can only be TRANSLATED a Aorist Imperative Active - 3rd Person Singular - VERB, in this verse:

Revelation 22:11 (NASB)
11 "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous,
still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."



I hope that will be helpful.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,477
688
113
Okay, it is Tomorrow. I think I found the an answer to the Confusion about the word PRACTICE.

Greek does not follow the same formula for words that have a VERB form of the Word PRACTICE, and the NOUN form of the Word PRACTICE. You have discovered one of the greatest weaknesses of translating from GREEK to English. When Practice is translated in it's NOUN FORM, it is NOT the same word, it is a DIFFERENT WORD IN THE GREEK. This is why some foreigners have GREAT DIFFICULTY learning English, because we have TOO many words that sound the same with TOTALLY different meanings. There are NUMEROUS words that can be translated to the Noun form of Practice but NONE OF THEM ARE EVEN REMOTELY SPELLED THE SAME as the VERB.

πρακτική noun
praktikí̱ experienceπράξη noun
práxi̱ act, transaction, action, deed, effectάσκηση noun
áskisi exercise, drillεξάσκηση noun
exáski̱si̱ trainingσυνήθεια noun
syní̱theia custom, habit, rote, convention, useχρήση noun
chrísi use, usageπείρα noun
peíra experience, knackέθιμο noun
éthimo customπελατεία noun

efarmózo̱ apply, practise μάθηση noun


THE WORD poieō can only be TRANSLATED a Aorist Imperative Active - 3rd Person Singular - VERB, in this verse:

Revelation 22:11 (NASB)
11 "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous,
still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."



I hope that will be helpful.
the simplest definition of poiew is "to do". The reason why it is translated practice in 1 John 3:7. ie practice righteousness, is because it is in the present tense, ie "doing righteousness". Practice sin is "to sin" (hamartano) in the present tense, ie sinning. The present tense in this context is a present, continuous, progressive tense.

1 John 3:6- whoever is born of God is not sinning. Present, continual, progressive tense. Habitual sin as a way of life

1 John 3:7- He that is doing righteousness (present, continual, progressive tense, habitual as a way of life) is righteous as He is righteous. See also 1 John 2:6

Sin in 1 John 2:1 is in the aorist subjunctive tense. If any man sins (punctilar, at a point in time) Sin in 1 John 3 is not punctilar but continuous.

1 John 2:1 if any man sin . (the dot represents the aorist, point in time, puntilar)

Whoever is born of God does not sin can be represented as a linear line _______________________________________

One is sin at a point in time, the other is continuous and progressive, ie linear.

John says it is possible, but not necessary for a Christian to sin in a punctilar sense, but that one who is born of God does not sin in the linear sense, ie continual, progressive, habitually.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
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Black line represents present, continual sinning

Red line represents present continual righteousness.

Black dots represent punctiliar acts of sin. Sins in point of time.


a. So is a Christian's life marked by continual sin, as represented by the line below?

____________________________________________________________________________________________

b. John says no. A Christians life is marked by continual righteousness. Here is how Christ's graph looks, continual righteousness with no sin whatsoever.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

c. Does this mean a Christian is sinless? No, 1 John 2:1 makes it apparent that Christians can and do sin. But their sins are punctiliar, point in time. So the actual way a day in a Christians life goes may look like this...red line righteousness, black dots are acts of sin, (see 1 John 2:1).

______________________.____________________________________________________.___________________________________________________

d. A believer is not practicing sin in the graph above. They are practicing righteousness, but they are not sinless in that their righteous walk is not absolutely perfect. So confession, 1 John 1:9 is practiced and restores the graph to this...

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
 
May 8, 2016
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the simplest definition of poiew is "to do". The reason why it is translated practice in 1 John 3:7. ie practice righteousness, is because it is in the present tense, ie "doing righteousness". Practice sin is "to sin" (hamartano) in the present tense, ie sinning. The present tense in this context is a present, continuous, progressive tense.

1 John 3:6- whoever is born of God is not sinning. Present, continual, progressive tense. Habitual sin as a way of life

1 John 3:7- He that is doing righteousness (present, continual, progressive tense, habitual as a way of life) is righteous as He is righteous. See also 1 John 2:6

Sin in 1 John 2:1 is in the aorist subjunctive tense. If any man sins (punctilar, at a point in time) Sin in 1 John 3 is not punctilar but continuous.

1 John 2:1 if any man sin . (the dot represents the aorist, point in time, puntilar)

Whoever is born of God does not sin can be represented as a linear line _______________________________________

One is sin at a point in time, the other is continuous and progressive, ie linear.

John says it is possible, but not necessary for a Christian to sin in a punctilar sense, but that one who is born of God does not sin in the linear sense, ie continual, progressive, habitually.
John is absolutely not teaching this!!

Performance, this is not a descriptor of the believer....like these men like to argue...

Perseverance is the evidence of being born again in Christ, not the means to it.
John Piper

Persevering in the faith is proof that you have the salvation you could never lose; failing to persevere shows that you never had it to begin with.
J D Greear


Our assurance is only in Jesus and nothing else, my behaviour and my perseverance are not indicators of my salvation but indicators of a victorious walk in Jesus as opposed to walking in the flesh.

You are adding works to the Gospel because you are making a persons "works" or "performance" an indicator of salvation.

"No works", or "evidence of ongoing sin that is not diminishing over time"...... then.... no salvation

I actually have a clip of MacArthur clearly stating we know we are saved by our desire to follow God!! Wrong

This means you are looking to performance, to ourselves for assurance of salvation.

What is the metric for my assurance if my assurance is based on my performance is lying everyday enough to be a "sinful lifestyle?"
 
May 8, 2016
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1 John 3 is not talking about two natures in a Christian, it is talking about two natures in two different types of individuals. One individual who practices (continual, progressive, frequentive, habitual verb) righteousness because he or she is born of God, and one individual who practices (continual, progressive, frequentive, habitual verb) sin, because they have not been born of God.

Here read for yourself....
Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his nature remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The seed is Christ.....Christ within us does not sin!! Amen
 
May 8, 2016
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What part of john are you talkin about?

Just for you EG

Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his nature remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The seed is Christ.....Christ within us does not sin!! Amen
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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John is absolutely not teaching this!!

Performance, this is not a descriptor of the believer....like these men like to argue...

Perseverance is the evidence of being born again in Christ, not the means to it.
John Piper

Persevering in the faith is proof that you have the salvation you could never lose; failing to persevere shows that you never had it to begin with.
J D Greear


Our assurance is only in Jesus and nothing else, my behaviour and my perseverance are not indicators of my salvation but indicators of a victorious walk in Jesus as opposed to walking in the flesh.

You are adding works to the Gospel because you are making a persons "works" or "performance" an indicator of salvation.

"No works", or "evidence of ongoing sin that is not diminishing over time"...... then.... no salvation

I actually have a clip of MacArthur clearly stating we know we are saved by our desire to follow God!! Wrong

This means you are looking to performance, to ourselves for assurance of salvation.

What is the metric for my assurance if my assurance is based on my performance is lying everyday enough to be a "sinful lifestyle?"
Please Miss can I ask a question?

Dummy boy here.

Why is our disire to follow God negate the fact we know we are saved wrong?
To me it's wrong to look to performance for salvation, that's when we measure the good and the bad.

The problem is when we allow the performance to outweigh the reality.
The reality saved by faith.
So if a person seeks to be like Jesus and that is their desire then I do not see it as wrong. To me it's evidence of faith as the result of salvation.

I have no knowledge of MacArthur or his teachings.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Here read for yourself....
Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his nature remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The seed is Christ.....Christ within us does not sin!! Amen
Practice is still a verb

No one born of God can continually live in sin, (practices) that is what the passage is attempting to say. Because we have the seed of God in us.

As apposed to whoever practices, or lives in sin, has never seen or known God.

One has never been saved, proven by the fact they still live in sin

One is born of God. And thus can not live like the world.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,477
688
113
John is absolutely not teaching this!!

Performance, this is not a descriptor of the believer....like these men like to argue...

Perseverance is the evidence of being born again in Christ, not the means to it.
John Piper

Persevering in the faith is proof that you have the salvation you could never lose; failing to persevere shows that you never had it to begin with.
J D Greear


Our assurance is only in Jesus and nothing else, my behaviour and my perseverance are not indicators of my salvation but indicators of a victorious walk in Jesus as opposed to walking in the flesh.

You are adding works to the Gospel because you are making a persons "works" or "performance" an indicator of salvation.

"No works", or "evidence of ongoing sin that is not diminishing over time"...... then.... no salvation

I actually have a clip of MacArthur clearly stating we know we are saved by our desire to follow God!! Wrong

This means you are looking to performance, to ourselves for assurance of salvation.

What is the metric for my assurance if my assurance is based on my performance is lying everyday enough to be a "sinful lifestyle?"
1 John 2:3-6. What does it say?
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,477
688
113
Here read for yourself....
Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his nature remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The seed is Christ.....Christ within us does not sin!! Amen
These verses say that a person that is born of God does not practice sin, because he or she has a new nature. Nothing about two natures. It's about people who are born of God that no longer practice sin, because they have a new nature, being born of God. It is not dissecting and cutting believers in parts and saying "this part sins and this part practices righteousness". You either practice righteousness continuously and progressively because you are born again, or you practice sin continuously and progressively as a result of not being born again.

You need to read in "two natures" that is not in the text in order to squeeze the Bible into the mold of what you believe instead of conforming your beliefs to what the scripture says. NO MENTION OF TWO NATURES IN JOHN 3. Just mentions a believer that has a new nature that results in a new way of life. Just like Jesus taught. Just like Paul taught. Just like all the apostles taught.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Practice is still a verb

No one born of God can continually live in sin, (practices) that is what the passage is attempting to say. Because we have the seed of God in us.

As apposed to whoever practices, or lives in sin, has never seen or known God.

One has never been saved, proven by the fact they still live in sin

One is born of God. And thus can not live like the world.
I'm laughing to myself here.

It's with sadness and embarrassment.
I left school with nothing, failed all me exams.
I even failed my English exams.
I could ask you what a verb is or a noun is or pro-noun is, and adjective, an ad-verb is and all the other stuff is.

You could explain it a thousand times and it doesn't seem to sink in.
A bit like Romans 7.

Don't tell @dcontroversal
He has tried to explain to many times.
 
May 8, 2016
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I have no knowledge of MacArthur or his teachings.
Mr Bill :)

I guess the short answer Jesus is our only security and His promises....my behaviour and desire are subject to change, but He is faithful and True...so I look to Him and this is what He clearly states...

John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Now I did not state the desire is wrong....for certain we should desire to walk in the Spirit, however that is not how we know we are saved.