Not By Works

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Aug 11, 2019
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I just stick with the inspired words.....IMV if he meant a gate he would have said a gate.....
It is indeed a specific type of entrance into a city (New Jersualem in the Kingdom), as that is the context.

Mar 10:23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Mar 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
Mar 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mar 10:26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Notice the words of Jesus, in regards trusting in riches (not that the riches themselves are what keeps a person out):

Vs 23, "How hardly ... enter ..."
Vs 24, "How hard it is ... to enter"
Vs 25, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle (needle's eye) ... to enter into"
Vs 26, "With men it is impossible"

Jesus said the same thing 4 times, so that the disciples would get it.

Laodicea is trusting in their own "riche", they are as that man, and as the man in Luke 16.
 

DeighAnn

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2019
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3049 logizomai
I reckon, count, charge with, reason, decide, conclude, think, suppose, to take into account, to make account of
In this verse here, does it state that this person is "made righteous"?
his faith is counted for righteousness Is "counted for" the same as "made"?

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous
"many be made" is "will be made" as in the future.

The original text states that faith is "counted for" not "made" and "many be made" is future. Is there somewhere else I could look to find "we are made righteous"?
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,087
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It is indeed a specific type of entrance into a city (New Jersualem in the Kingdom), as that is the context.

Mar 10:23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Mar 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
Mar 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mar 10:26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Notice the words of Jesus, in regards trusting in riches (not that the riches themselves are what keeps a person out):

Vs 23, "How hardly ... enter ..."
Vs 24, "How hard it is ... to enter"
Vs 25, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle (needle's eye) ... to enter into"
Vs 26, "With men it is impossible"

Jesus said the same thing 4 times, so that the disciples would get it.

Laodicea is trusting in their own "riche", they are as that man, and as the man in Luke 16.
The bolded proves that they understood it to be an actual camel and a NEEDLE......because they then said WHO can be saved....I will NOTE they would not have said this if it was a gate into the city and a camel...because a CAMEL could be unloaded and led through the GATE.....

NOW....to address you personally....we have danced today already....and YOU have proven yourself to not only be dishonest, but also one that devalues the work of Christ while rejecting the word of GOD....

Do not address me if you cannot be HONEST with the word of GOD.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,087
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The following tells me it was an actual NEEDLE and a CAMEL being spoken of by Christ....the verbiage is clear....NOTE the following....

Mar 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mar 10:26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

a. JESUS says "A" needle....NOT THE NEEDLE GATE

b. THE disciples understood it just fine and then state WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED (THEIR view is it is IMPOSSIBLE for a CAMEL to go through the EYE of a NEEDLE) <----A CAMEL could be unloaded and go thru the gate....it was NOT something that was IMPOSSIBLE

c. JESUS understood them and their VIEW that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a camel to go through the eye of a NEEDLE.....and states that WITH GOD.....ALL things are possible.....whether a rich man being saved or a CAMEL going through the eye of a NEEDLE

It is clear as..........the verbiage speaks volumes!!
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
8,655
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The following tells me it was an actual NEEDLE and a CAMEL being spoken of by Christ....the verbiage is clear....NOTE the following....

Mar 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mar 10:26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

a. JESUS says "A" needle....NOT THE NEEDLE GATE

b. THE disciples understood it just fine and then state WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED (THEIR view is it is IMPOSSIBLE for a CAMEL to go through the EYE of a NEEDLE) <----A CAMEL could be unloaded and go thru the gate....it was NOT something that was IMPOSSIBLE

c. JESUS understood them and their VIEW that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a camel to go through the eye of a NEEDLE.....and states that WITH GOD.....ALL things are possible.....whether a rich man being saved or a CAMEL going through the eye of a NEEDLE

It is clear as..........the verbiage speaks volumes!!
Although the thing about the "needle gate" gets repeated a lot, I don't think there is historical evidence for it.

And as dcontroversal pointed out, it doesn't fit the actual narrative of the story... it just doesn't make sense.

I know the Persians had a similar Proverb, about elephants, which would have been familiar to people in the region.
And from what I've read, this Proverb was just adapted a little by the Jews, to use a camel.
So this whole thing was a commonly used proverb... it was used to refer to something impossible.

..
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
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we all know that a camel could NEVER pass through the 'eye of a needle' -
hence, none of us can ever pass into Jesus' realm of Holiness without His
permission/calling.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
The bolded proves that they understood it to be an actual camel and a NEEDLE......because they then said WHO can be saved....I will NOTE they would not have said this if it was a gate into the city and a camel...because a CAMEL could be unloaded and led through the GATE.....

NOW....to address you personally....we have danced today already....and YOU have proven yourself to not only be dishonest, but also one that devalues the work of Christ while rejecting the word of GOD....

Do not address me if you cannot be HONEST with the word of GOD.
Yes I see what you mean.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Although the thing about the "needle gate" gets repeated a lot, I don't think there is historical evidence for it.

And as dcontroversal pointed out, it doesn't fit the actual narrative of the story... it just doesn't make sense.

I know the Persians had a similar Proverb, about elephants, which would have been familiar to people in the region.
And from what I've read, this Proverb was just adapted a little by the Jews, to use a camel.
So this whole thing was a commonly used proverb... it was used to refer to something impossible.

..
The not possible aspect, is the ability to save oneself,.... that is indeed impossible.
 
Aug 11, 2019
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The bolded proves that they understood it to be an actual camel and a NEEDLE
Brother, in one place you argue koine Greek, and in others you dogmatically refuse to budge on simple English words. That is a double standard I have noticed in your studies. The disciples misunderstood a lot, and literalized everything:

1.John 1:19-25 (John the Baptist as Elijah)
2.John 2:19-22 (Temple of His body)
3.John 3:1-21 (Nicodemus, Born Again)
4.John 4:7-15 (Woman a the Well, Water)
5.John 4:31-34 (Meat to Eat, Water to Drink)
6.John 5:6-7 (Will you be made whole, Pool)
7.John 6:50-52 (Eat my Flesh, Word)
8.John 7:38-39 (Water out of the belly, Spirit)
9.Matthew 16:5-12 (Leaven, Bread)

The context, is a specific type of entrance, not a sewing instrument. The words "enter" (Matthew 19:17, which you also refuse to do) are used over an over again. One enters the city through the "gates":

Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Psa_118:19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD:

Psa 118:20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter.

That is a repetition of what Jesus stated.

Jesus is that needle "gate".

Joh_10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Mat_7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Luk_13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Jesus was not speaking about the absurd. He was using every day objects as lessons, such as a large animal as a camel, entering in at a small gate into a city, fit for the width of a man (Jesus), rather then the broad entrance leading to destruction.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
8,924
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Totally agree given my research.

aphorism

I was aware of that word but have no idea what it means.
What does it mean in the context?

That was a quote from the article I was reading, and I had to look it up:

aphorism noun [ C ]
US /ˈæf·əˌrɪz·əm/
a short saying that is intended to express a general truth

Cambridge Dictionary
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/aphorism



aphorism
[ af-uh-riz-uh m ]

noun
a terse saying embodying a general truth, or astute observation, as “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely” (Lord Acton).

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/aphorism


I would trust the Cambridge Dictionary to be the biblical definition.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
8,924
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113
Hi I am new here, I haven't read all this thread, just really saying hello I guess and making my way around the place. I like the idea of natural remedies as opposed to pain killers and antibiotics thanks for the tips. Goodness seems like a lot of controversy in this thread though o_O

Howdy Hemust, welcome aboard.

Most of us are OSAS Believers, but we have a sizable that amount of the opposite opinion too. Yes some of the discussion get heated but most of us can just agree to disagree.
 

DeighAnn

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2019
2,042
706
113
Hi I am new here, I haven't read all this thread, just really saying hello I guess and making my way around the place. I like the idea of natural remedies as opposed to pain killers and antibiotics thanks for the tips. Goodness seems like a lot of controversy in this thread though o_O
Welcome Mr Increase, Jump on in, the waters fine. :eek::whistle::whistle::whistle::giggle:
 
Aug 11, 2019
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DeighAnn

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2019
2,042
706
113

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
8,924
2,794
113
The following tells me it was an actual NEEDLE and a CAMEL being spoken of by Christ....the verbiage is clear....NOTE the following....

Mar 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mar 10:26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

a. JESUS says "A" needle....NOT THE NEEDLE GATE

b. THE disciples understood it just fine and then state WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED (THEIR view is it is IMPOSSIBLE for a CAMEL to go through the EYE of a NEEDLE) <----A CAMEL could be unloaded and go thru the gate....it was NOT something that was IMPOSSIBLE

c. JESUS understood them and their VIEW that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a camel to go through the eye of a NEEDLE.....and states that WITH GOD.....ALL things are possible.....whether a rich man being saved or a CAMEL going through the eye of a NEEDLE

It is clear as..........the verbiage speaks volumes!!

The expression "The Eye of the Needle" was mention several times in the Talmud.

WIKEPEDIA QUOTE:

The term "eye of a needle" is used as a metaphor for a very narrow opening. It occurs several times throughout the Talmud. The New Testament quotes Jesus as saying that "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God".
. . .
The "Eye of the Needle" has been claimed to be a gate in Jerusalem, which opened after the main gate was closed at night.
. . .
Gate

The "Eye of the Needle" has been claimed to be a gate in Jerusalem, which opened after the main gate was closed at night. A camel could only pass through this smaller gate if it was stooped and had its baggage removed. This story has been put forth since at least the 15th century, and possibly as far back as the 9th century. However, there is no widely accepted evidence for the existence of such a gate.

End Quote.

IF IT IS A REAL GATE.

This would be the most likely location:



This smaller gate that was open all night, after the gates to the City were CLOSED for the Night.
This larger GATE is now call the JUDGEMENT GATE, as this is the location they believe Christ exited the City carrying HIS Cross.

However I am comfortable saying Christ was referencing a literal sowing needle.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
8,924
2,794
113
Although the thing about the "needle gate" gets repeated a lot, I don't think there is historical evidence for it.

And as dcontroversal pointed out, it doesn't fit the actual narrative of the story... it just doesn't make sense.

I know the Persians had a similar Proverb, about elephants, which would have been familiar to people in the region.
And from what I've read, this Proverb was just adapted a little by the Jews, to use a camel.
So this whole thing was a commonly used proverb... it was used to refer to something impossible.

..

Max, welcome back. That is what WIKIPEDIA said to. The story of the Needle Gate, cannot be found in early Church writings. It may have gotten started in the 9th Century.
 

Smooth

Well-known member
Jul 22, 2019
460
626
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This is a joke right? ....sometimes I need help understanding cause I am not that smart.;)
What the heck? How did that happen?
I apologize. I thought a works salvationist wrote something about it being hot, not you. I would never say that to someone who understands the true essence of God’s grace as you do. I’m sorry if I upset you.
 
Aug 11, 2019
75
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Brother, in one place you argue koine Greek, and in others you dogmatically refuse to budge on simple English words. That is a double standard I have noticed in your studies. The disciples misunderstood a lot, and literalized everything:

1.John 1:19-25 (John the Baptist as Elijah)
2.John 2:19-22 (Temple of His body)
3.John 3:1-21 (Nicodemus, Born Again)
4.John 4:7-15 (Woman a the Well, Water)
5.John 4:31-34 (Meat to Eat, Water to Drink)
6.John 5:6-7 (Will you be made whole, Pool)
7.John 6:50-52 (Eat my Flesh, Word)
8.John 7:38-39 (Water out of the belly, Spirit)
9.Matthew 16:5-12 (Leaven, Bread)

The context, is a specific type of entrance, not a sewing instrument. The words "enter" (Matthew 19:17, which you also refuse to do) are used over an over again. One enters the city through the "gates":

Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Psa_118:19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD:

Psa 118:20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter.

That is a repetition of what Jesus stated.

Jesus is that needle "gate".

Joh_10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Mat_7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Luk_13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Jesus was not speaking about the absurd. He was using every day objects as lessons, such as a large animal as a camel, entering in at a small gate into a city, fit for the width of a man (Jesus), rather then the broad entrance leading to destruction.
Thanks for this, I am really learning a lot today there is a lot of truth in this post.(y)(y)