Not By Works

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Dec 12, 2013
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Well, Im uncertian about this, that does make sense, but there are other things that make me uncertian.

1 Corinthians 5:3-5, " 3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. 4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Because in the prior chapter Paul says this:

1 Corinthians 4:1-5, " 1 This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God."

Romans 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.:



I feel like this is VERY CERTIAN:

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
Sure...Paul was speaking to those who were judging his ministry......

Faith is listed in the fruits of the Spirit.......

So....question....if a man has faith and believes in Jesus as his savior, technically he has produced fruit right?
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Yes Jesus says "IF we abide in Him we produce fruit, if not thrown into fire"

Jesus is the ONLY way.

John 15:5-16, " 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

John 14: 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Does that not say men throw the branches into the fire?
 

FollowtheShepherd

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Sep 15, 2019
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1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

If the guy needs to be turned over to Satan to save his spirit, the guy wasn't saved. Saved people have eternal security and don't need their spirits saved.... their spirit is already saved.
Yes, so dcontroversal said yes saved, you said no not saved, I am confsed by what Paul writes because this, see that is why I said this:

Well, Im uncertian about this, that does make sense, but there are other things that make me uncertian.

1 Corinthians 5:3-5, " 3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. 4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Because in the prior chapter Paul says this:

1 Corinthians 4:1-5, " 1 This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God."

Romans 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.:

How can Paul say he does not even judge himself while judging another?

How can Paul say dont judge anothers servant as he does so?

I feel like this is VERY CERTIAN:

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
SO many differnt directions, confusing.
 

FollowtheShepherd

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Sep 15, 2019
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ask followrthesheperd what he/she thinks about the Law. I already know, but I am not going to say.....
:):):):):):):)

Of course the law is not done away, I dont see how anyone could think that if they believe Jesus words.

Matthew 5:17-18, " 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Revelation 21:1-2, " 1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 22:14-15, " 14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Matt 13:41-43, “The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.”

Revelation 12:16-17, " 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

Revelation 14:12-13, " 12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”
 

FollowtheShepherd

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Sep 15, 2019
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Does that not say men throw the branches into the fire?
I think Jesus does the throwing into the fire via His angels:

John 15:5-16, " 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Matthew 13:41-43, " 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Just like He gathers via His angels:

Matthew 24:29-31, " 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 

FollowtheShepherd

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Sep 15, 2019
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Sure...Paul was speaking to those who were judging his ministry......

Faith is listed in the fruits of the Spirit.......

So....question....if a man has faith and believes in Jesus as his savior, technically he has produced fruit right?
Well I think said man would have to act on it, as fruit is actual actions/deeds but I think it would only be a metter of time.
 

FollowtheShepherd

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Sep 15, 2019
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Do you believe that you can lose your salvation?
I think;

Matthew 10:22, “And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”

Matt 24:12-13, “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.”

Hebrews 10:36-38, “For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of Yah you may receive what is promised. 37 For yet a little while – He who is coming shall come and shall not delay. 38 But the righteous shall live by belief, but if anyone draws back, my being has no pleasure in him.”

Hebrews 9:27-28, “And as it awaits men to die once, and after this the judgment, so also the Messiah, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to those waiting for Him, unto salvation.”

James 1:12, "Blessed is the man who does endure trial, for when he has been proved, he shall receive the crown of life which the Master has promised to those who love Him."

that while salvation may be waiting for His people, I don;t think it is recieved until He returns. See verses above.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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I think;

Matthew 10:22, “And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”

Matt 24:12-13, “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.”

Hebrews 10:36-38, “For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of Yah you may receive what is promised. 37 For yet a little while – He who is coming shall come and shall not delay. 38 But the righteous shall live by belief, but if anyone draws back, my being has no pleasure in him.”

Hebrews 9:27-28, “And as it awaits men to die once, and after this the judgment, so also the Messiah, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to those waiting for Him, unto salvation.”

James 1:12, "Blessed is the man who does endure trial, for when he has been proved, he shall receive the crown of life which the Master has promised to those who love Him."

that while salvation may be waiting for His people, I don;t think it is recieved until He returns. See verses above.
I can see why "turning one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh" is confusing then.

I believe we are saved by grace, we didn't do anything to earn it, it was a gift from God. We were sinners and God gave us the gift, why would he take it away when we never deserved it from the start?

I'm sure that you know that some very very wicked people like Paul (before conversion) were saved. Paul was persecuting the church, he was a terror to the Christians in his day.... but yet, being desperately wicked and working TOTALLY against God, God saved him.

Why would God save Paul in that state and then take it away from him for committing a few sins after his conversion?

Does this make sense?
 
Dec 27, 2018
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You know....I planted some tame black berries....they grew 10 foot vines this year....but will not bear fruit until next year.....

Also....an oak tree takes 20 to 25 years to produce a crop of acorns....

Wheat takes around 10 months...

Some men may produce early.....some may take a lifetime to bear fruit.....

The bible is clear.....Jesus produces in us....and we but bear the fruit......
Yes, but the Bible says that God parted the Red Sea and the Israelites passed through on dry ground. What part of that don’t you understand?
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Yes, but the Bible says that God parted the Red Sea and the Israelites passed through on dry ground. What part of that don’t you understand?
What does paring the Red Sea have to do with anything Mac?
 

FollowtheShepherd

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Sep 15, 2019
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I can see why "turning one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh" is confusing then.

I believe we are saved by grace, we didn't do anything to earn it, it was a gift from God. We were sinners and God gave us the gift, why would he take it away when we never deserved it from the start?

I'm sure that you know that some very very wicked people like Paul (before conversion) were saved. Paul was persecuting the church, he was a terror to the Christians in his day.... but yet, being desperately wicked and working TOTALLY against God, God saved him.

Why would God save Paul in that state and then take it away from him for committing a few sins after his conversion?

Does this make sense?
well like I said I dont believe any hav salvation until they meet Jesus in the air. we cant lose something we dont yet have.

there is also this:

Psalm 69:27-28, “Add iniquity to their iniquity! Let them not come into Your righteousness! May they be blotted out of The Book of Life, and not be written with the righteous!”

Revelation 3: 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Maybe all are writeen in the book at borth? or maybe it is a book of salvation, but none have yet recieved thus it's possible to be blotted out?

I have not seen the book and it's not fully explained in the word so none know exactly what it is I think.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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I wonder about Moses......
a. His first 40 years raised in Egypt
b. His second 40 years tending sheep
c. Was not until age 80 he led the Children of Israel out of Egypt

What fruit did he bear his first 80 years? Is there anything listed in the bible?
I’ll be serious about this one. Do you know when Moses came to know YHWH? What chapter and verse shows when Moses knew YHWH? Let me know
 
Dec 27, 2018
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What does paring the Red Sea have to do with anything Mac?
I’m imitating DC. He answers everything with the same canned canned answers that don’t have anything to do with what is being said

And you can also say God parted the Red Sea when he saved us, so we don’t have to stay in Egypt too😀(y)
 
Nov 23, 2013
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well like I said I dont believe any hav salvation until they meet Jesus in the air. we cant lose something we dont yet have.

there is also this:

Psalm 69:27-28, “Add iniquity to their iniquity! Let them not come into Your righteousness! May they be blotted out of The Book of Life, and not be written with the righteous!”

Revelation 3: 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name o
ut of the book of life
, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Maybe all are writeen in the book at borth? or maybe it is a book of salvation, but none have yet recieved thus it's possible to be blotted out?

I have not seen the book and it's not fully explained in the word so none know exactly what it is I think.
You're reading the wrong bible version Shep. Take a look at the verse from the KJV.

Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

The KJV says let them be blotted out of the BOOK OF THE LIVING... this means that God is going to take their lives, they will not be among the living.

AND not be written with the righteous (THE BOOK OF LIFE).

Did you see that? They will NOT be WRITTEN in THE BOOK OF LIFE. Notice that it DOES NOT say blotted out of the book of life as the version you are using says.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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Sure...Paul was speaking to those who were judging his ministry......

Faith is listed in the fruits of the Spirit.......

So....question....if a man has faith and believes in Jesus as his savior, technically he has produced fruit right?
I thought you said it took years to bear anything. Want the link?
 

FollowtheShepherd

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Sep 15, 2019
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You're reading the wrong bible version Shep. Take a look at the verse from the KJV.

Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

The KJV says let them be blotted out of the BOOK OF THE LIVING... this means that God is going to take their lives, they will not be among the living.

AND not be written with the righteous (THE BOOK OF LIFE).

Did you see that? They will NOT be WRITTEN in THE BOOK OF LIFE. Notice that it DOES NOT say blotted out of the book of life as the version you are using says.
This is not the version I usually use, it just a digital version I have.

Yes the hebrew does appear to be "living" but I would need to study it more.

However the greek in Revelation uses "zoe"

2222. zóé: life
Original Word: ζωή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: zóé
Phonetic Spelling: (dzo-ay')
Definition: life
Usage: life, both of physical (present) and of spiritual (particularly future) existence

again as I said originally I dont think we fully understand what this book is, a few verses are not enought, but it does seem that whatever it means exactly, that those written in the book upon Jesus return for sure enter the kingdom,​


Aside from this, I posted a number of verses that backed up my view that none recieve salvation until Jesus returns.
 

FollowtheShepherd

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
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You're reading the wrong bible version Shep. Take a look at the verse from the KJV.

Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

The KJV says let them be blotted out of the BOOK OF THE LIVING... this means that God is going to take their lives, they will not be among the living.

AND not be written with the righteous (THE BOOK OF LIFE).

Did you see that? They will NOT be WRITTEN in THE BOOK OF LIFE. Notice that it DOES NOT say blotted out of the book of life as the version you are using says.
Also thank you for pointing this out, Im not a fan of the KJV due to the use of verses added 600-1500 years later, but none the less thank you this gives me soimething to look at!
 

FollowtheShepherd

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
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You're reading the wrong bible version Shep. Take a look at the verse from the KJV.

Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

The KJV says let them be blotted out of the BOOK OF THE LIVING... this means that God is going to take their lives, they will not be among the living.

AND not be written with the righteous (THE BOOK OF LIFE).

Did you see that? They will NOT be WRITTEN in THE BOOK OF LIFE. Notice that it DOES NOT say blotted out of the book of life as the version you are using says.
OK so the KJV also uses the words "life" in otehr places.

Genesis 1:20
HEB: שֶׁ֖רֶץ נֶ֣פֶשׁ חַיָּ֑ה וְעוֹף֙ יְעוֹפֵ֣ף
NAS: with swarms of living creatures,
KJV: that hath life, and fowl

again I mean it thank you, im going to look into this more.