Not By Works

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Dec 6, 2019
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Did you know it would be me:cool:

Interested to see if we agree, because I don't fully agree with TULIP either
If I may chime in...

I believe in a modified form of Total Depravity. T

I believe in perserverance of saints, (by Gods preservation) P

I believe that I don’t fully understand election, but it happens in eternity past, not in time

In disagreement, I reject the L, limited atonement, because I believe Christ died for all

And I believe grace can be resisted/rejected, so I do not believe in irresistible grace
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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If I may chime in...

I believe in a modified form of Total Depravity. T

I believe in perserverance of saints, (by Gods preservation) P

I believe that I don’t fully understand election, but it happens in eternity past, not in time

In disagreement, I reject the L, limited atonement, because I believe Christ died for all

And I believe grace can be resisted/rejected, so I do not believe in irresistible grace
I agree with T.
I agree with P.
I disagree with L as well (and this is what I find dangerous as it leads to assuming someone is not saved based on actions but also assuming no need to evangelize to those who you assume will not accept Jesus)

With regards to I, not so sure.
That leads me back election.
 
Dec 6, 2019
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I agree with T.
I agree with P.
I disagree with L as well (and this is what I find dangerous as it leads to assuming someone is not saved based on actions but also assuming no need to evangelize to those who you assume will not accept Jesus)

With regards to I, not so sure.
That leads me back election.
IF Grace is irresistable, then there is not a real offer of grace to those who are not elect. That makes it problematic for me
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
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Whose determination of the identity and extension of the Body of Christ is authoritative? (If you deny that Christ founded a visible Church, then skip this question.) ;):)
Show me the scripture that states you have to be a member of a church in order to have salvation. No worries, I’ll wait.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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Sorry, sister. The verse I was referring to was Heb 3:14. We have become ( past tense) partakers of Christ if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firn until the end.

The made partakers is past tense, occurring BEFORE the holding fast, making the act of holding fast a descriptive quality of partakers, not a condition that makes you a partaker

Hebrews 3.6 says we are Christ’s house if we hold fast our confidence and boast of our hope firm to the end.

We are Christ’s house (present tense) if (descriptive) we hold fast our confidence to the end ( going into the future).

So holding fast is not a condition we have to meet in order to be Gods house. We already are Gods house. But this text reveals that holding fast to the end is descriptive of those that are Gods house
I need to read this in context, but I am not into the whole descriptive - prescriptive paradigm ... another off shoot of Calvin's ideas.
I try to just understand in context from a OSAS point of view.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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Having been regenerated and renewed by the Holy Spirit, we walk in a new way of life. "Lord, who may dwell in Your sanctuary? Who may live on Your holy hill?

He whose walk is blameless and who does what is righteous, who speaks the truth from his heart and has no slander on his tongue, who does his neighbor no wrong and casts no slur on his fellowman, who despises a vile man but honors those who fear the Lord, who keeps his oath even when it hurts, who lends his money without interest and does not accept a bribe against the innocent.

He who does these things will never be shaken." Amen.

"If any man be in Christ, he is a new creation. Old things have gone, all things have been made new." "With God all things are possible" and "all things are possible with Him who believes." The Word of God is true. "Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."
Conflation Station will never equal Salvation

Conditional blessing ascribed in the O.T. and UNDER the LAW will NEVER mix with GRACE and the promises of the N.T......EVER!

Salvation, justification, being sealed in Christ positionally and the very faith that saves are all FREE GIFTS given IRREVOCABLY in the N.T.

Try to actually grasp that TRUTH!
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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When he says stuff like that, it reminds me of someone who caught a train, has one step in and one foot out holding on for dear life hoping not to fall off.

not very secure in my book.

God promised he takes us by the hand and brings us inside the train, then shuts to door so we can’t fall out. He even purchased the ticket.
AMEN.....God shut the door on the ark....and it was sealed WITHIN and WITHOUT with pitch for a reason.....another wonderful truth overlooked by many and obviously rejected by those that devalue salvation, salvation losers and self sustained workers for......
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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What's the 2 you dont believe in?

Like I said, WE conservative evangelical do not agree with all the points of the Calvinist TULIP. So here is my personal objections:

Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in totality. They simply represent some of its main points.

Here are the TWO that I disagree with and why?

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).


In the section on Unconditional Election, I object to the idea that GOD chooses us without regard of our choice, and their statement:
Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Their concept of God randomly choosing without regard of us Choosing whom we will Serve, not only disregards the following verse, but also makes the STATEMENT that Joshua said, totally irrelevant.

Joshua 24:14-16 (NKJV)
14 "Now therefore, fear the LORD, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the LORD!
15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
16 So the people answered and said: "Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods;

And it contradicts these VERSES in in Romans say:

Romans 10:8-10 (NASB)
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The other issue is their insistance that GOD does not look down thru time, to see who might choose HIM; HOW DO THEY KNOW? Besides I personally have a POSSIBILITY that I think it is entirely Possible, so hold on to your hat. I DO NOT THINK YOU HAVE HEARD THIS THEORY BEFORE: HE CALLS HIMSELF THEE I AM! Not the I Was, I AM, I Will Be. I AM is His NAME that HE told Moses to Tell the People. I think that is a REFERENCE that GOD EXISTS OUT SIDE OF TIME ITSELF, and in fact HE IS THE CREATOR OF TIME as we know it to be. It says HE declares the END FROM THE BEGINNING, BECAUSE HE IS ALREADY SIMULTANEOUSLY EXISTS in EVERY TIME FRAME THAT WE TRAVEL THROUGH. HE is not a created being traveling Through time as we Know it. HE IS THE I AM! IF TIME IS ONLY FOR US BEINGS INSIDE OF IT, WHAT CONSTITUTES TIME FOR AN ETERNAL, ALL POWERFUL BEING, SUCH AS GOD. He can write our names in the book of life before the foundation of the earth, because HE is present at each and every believer's conversion, all at the same instant as went HE wrote our names in the book of life. Omnipresent does not ONLY REFER TO EVERY SQUARE INCH OF THE UNIVERSE AND HEAVEN AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK IT REFERS TO EVERY SECOND OF TIME SIMULTANEOUSLY, and LITERALLY. Now think about that theory, and watch how much bigger GOD really is to you personally, and how TOTALLY WE THEN WE CAN ASSUME HE ACTUALLY IS. GOD IS ALL POWERFUL, HE IS ALL KNOWING, HE IS THE CREATOR OF TIME ITSELF, HE THE ONE THAT NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR HIM, Etc., Etc., Etc. That is my personal Theory, but it KEEPS me in AWE of GOD.

Limited Atonement: is another one of the Five Points of Calvinism that I do not think they are Absolutely Correct. However not as much as Unconditional Election. In Limited Atonement, they made the FIRST COMMENT, that I think it is totally in Error, which is: Jesus died only for the elect. That statement Contradicts what HE has said in the BIBLE.

1 John 2:2 (NIV)
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.


That means the ONLY SIN THAT WAS NOT PAID FOR ON THE CROSS IS "BLASPHEMING THE HOLY SPIRIT" My understanding of what is Blaspheming the Holy Spirit" actually is, to Blaspheme HIS work of Getting us to Believe our Sins were bought and paid for on the CROSS, THUS THOSE PEOPLE ARE IN UNBELIEF. And Yes it says to those who came to the conclusion that HE did those miracles by the power of Devil, they had that SAME KIND OF UNBELIEF. Therefore UNBELIEF is blaspheming the Holy Spirit, because it is the Holy Spirit who empowers us to BELIEVE. Every other SIN was Paid for on the CROSS of JESUS. Therefore I believe that the ONLY SIN Not Paid for on the CROSS is UNBELIEF. However, some people think that Head Knowledge is enough to be SAVED, but the Bible says in Rom. 10:8-10 above, IT MUST BE HEART (Human Spirit) Knowledge.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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Note and disclaimer...A Christian may have a lapse for a season, even a long season, but temporary backsliding is not the same as apostasy. Apostasy is when a "professing" Christian stops being a "professing" Christian. Backsliding is when a Christian has a temporary lapse.

Don't want to backslide though. The only result it brings is wasted time, wasted opportunities, and grief to us, others, and most importantly, God.
The word translated apostasy is tied directly to the appearing of the man of sin in 2nd Thessalonians 2........it is primarily directed at the LOST which fully deny GOD by embracing the MAN of SIN as God......we cannot alleviate this truth.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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Who produces the fruit...US or CHRIST?

Does the ROOT produce the FRUIT or the BRANCHES?

The root "JESUS" produces the FRUIT, the branches "SAVED" but bear the fruit that HE produces in us as a LIVING sacrifice...

ALL glory goes to GOD....NONE to US!
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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[26] For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, [27] But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. [28] A man making void the law of Moses, dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: [29] How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? [30] For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people.
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH....CONTEXT GENIUS......!!! It is not speaking of salvation.....!!!
 
Dec 6, 2019
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I need to read this in context, but I am not into the whole descriptive - prescriptive paradigm ... another off shoot of Calvin's ideas.
I try to just understand in context from a OSAS point of view.
That’s cool. Just be sure to note the tenses of the verbs. 🙂
 
Dec 6, 2019
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The word translated apostasy is tied directly to the appearing of the man of sin in 2nd Thessalonians 2........it is primarily directed at the LOST which fully deny GOD by embracing the MAN of SIN as God......we cannot alleviate this truth.
True. Apostasy is also addressed in 1 Timothy 4 starting in verse 1