Not By Works

[Judges1318]

Is there an old OSAS?

Calvinism.

 

[BillG]

Calvinism.

It means grace is not a license to sin with impunity as the new osas says it is.

So basically new OSAS and old OSAS teach that we can sin with impunity?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

That is exactly what is happening in this thread.
This thread seems to exist for the very purpose of going on that rant.
It's almost like the opening post was inviting the challenge, not making a helpful contribution to believers.

You might study Free Grace Movement or Grace Evangelical Society.

Some of this gets into a hyper-dispensational view that denies regeneration, too.

Robert Wilkin, who is the founder of Grace Evangelical Society, debated James White on this issue...and part of his issue relates to hyper-dispensationalism.

 

[Judges1318]

This is such a difficult topic, though, because if a legalist is talking to them, he's not giving them a solid message, and telling them they are still "under the law", and may not be telling them about how their union with Christ provides the means for obedience

Two points.

I don't think that a believer not knowing how to avail himself of the power of the Lord to overcome sin qualifies him as a legalist. I think 'legalist' is primarily defined as a person literally trying to purchase a declaration of righteousness through the performance of righteous works. The 'legalists' you're referring to aren't doing that. Really.

And two, if those you view as 'legalists' are guilty of anything it is not being able to articulate the message of God's ability to lead the believer out of their sin. It certainly isn't a magic wand in most cases. Life's lessons administered by the Lord is what trains God's people to not walk in unrighteousness. I wish it were just a wave of God's magic wand, but it's not. It involves changing the believer's mind about sin. That's can be a very, very rough road. I got the T-shirt on that one. Several of them.

 

[Judges1318]

So basically new OSAS and old OSAS teach that we can sin with impunity?

No, the osas part of traditional Calvinism teaches that if you are still living in your old life you have never believed to begin with. You are an unbeliever.

The new osas teaches that it doesn't matter whatsoever to your salvation if you are still living in your old life, because (they say) salvation is not by works, so they can't matter at all in regard to salvation.

 

[BillG]

No, the osas part of traditional Calvinism teaches that if you are still living in your old life you have never believed to begin with. You are an unbeliever.

The new osas teaches that it doesn't matter whatsoever to your salvation if you are still living in your old life, because (they say) salvation is not by works, so they can't matter at all in regard to salvation.

Thanks for clarifying

 

[Judges1318]

Fourthly, I am not sure what you mean by immoral Reformed churches

I guess what I mean is 'churches with reformed leaning ideas who defend immoral behavior in believers'.

 

[Judges1318]

I don’t care what osas says; I care what Jesus says, that whoever believes in Him has eternal life. Christianity 101.

But, ultimately, people who don't have the works and the fruit that come from faith in Christ show they don't have the eternal life they think they do. Speaking very generally, of course.

 

[Judges1318]

when I say "Reformed", I am not talking about guys at Dallas Theological Seminary who believe in eternal security, but do not believe in the other four points, like Norm Geisler, Charles Ryrie, Zane Hodges, Robert Wilkin..those guys are not really Reformed.

If you really want to focus on this issue, study "Free Grace Movement" and "Grace Evangelical Society"..they are the main group I think you should be criticizing. Southern Baptist Convention is another group that harbors those types of guys...although about 20 percent are Reformed and would not agree with "once saved always saved".

This just reminds me of how complicate man has made this when it's really quite simple: 'Present tense believing means present tense salvation'.

Keep believing. That's the message of the NT.
We've departed from the simplicity of the gospel.

 

[EleventhHour]

This just reminds me of how complicate man has made this when it's really quite simple: 'Present tense believing means present tense salvation'.

Keep believing. That's the message of the NT.
We've departed from the simplicity of the gospel.

If this wasn't so wrong it would be funny.

Seriously you can't make this stuff up.

 

[EleventhHour]

greasy gracers

Is this language really necessary?

I find it completely insulting to the grace of God and you should too.

 

[Lightskin]

But, ultimately, people who don't have the works and the fruit that come from faith in Christ show they don't have the eternal life they think they do. Speaking very generally, of course.

How much work and fruit is enough? What if YOU turn out to be one work or one fruit shy of just enough? Would you adamantly voice your displeasure to God and proclaim your faith in Him?

 

[Lightskin]

I think the basic problem with misunderstandings related to obedience center on union with Christ.

Those who are greasy gracers only acknowledge legal union, meaning that they believe that Jesus' righteousness has been legally imputed to the believer. But, they deny that believers are united with Christ in a vital union that produces good works.

Legalists often think that they produce works by their own resources, and not through their vital union with Christ. Some of them even deny legal righteousness.

But, Reformed people have the best balance..they acknowledge legal union, but also acknowledge vital union that transforms them through their union with Christ. They are attached to the vine, and they DO produce fruit as a result.

So many are hung up on simple legal union with Christ, and not vital union with Christ. They are like a half-baked cake.

Oh gee, look what chimed in. Another self proclaimed pseudo intellectual who doesn’t know the first thing about the fullness and irrevocability of God’s grace.

 

[dcontroversal]

People who obsess over the "keep believing or lose your salvation" theory and relentlessly attack the OSAS doctrine seem to view salvation as "slippery grace" and make it sound like continuing to believe the gospel is a difficult burden of self effort and self preservation and seem to put little or no stock at all in God's preservation. (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1) Such people seem satisfied with believing that Christians all around them are losing their salvation, but that is not the case for them because they have worked so hard at preserving themselves. Now guess who gets ALL the credit for that?

winner winner chicken dinner....they totally devalue Jesus

 

[Lightskin]

You annoy me.

Spoken from the current king of annoyance.

 

[dcontroversal]

That's just crazy. Apparantly the poor bees which we rely upon for many things are getting wiped out too.

Yeah....a massive die off across the full spectrum.....animals, insects, fish etc.....

 

[Lightskin]

Millions of Israelites who had received the gifts and calling of God have died and gone to hell. How does that show us that God's gifts and calling being irrevocable means what osas says it means?

They didn’t have faith in Jesus. They didn’t trust God regarding the Messiah.

 

[dcontroversal]

whats happening to the bees? are the locust eating them or?

Pesticides sprayed on fields, disease etc.

 

[Lightskin]

Even Calvin didn't teach that!

The heck with Calvinism.

 

[dcontroversal]

You mean like the "keep believing or loose salvation" theory?

He is one of the biggest devaluers if truth and Jesus.....his keep believing blather will take him some place he does not wish to go.....