Not By Works

[Guojing]

Yes, according to this definition:

Definition of justify

transitive verb
1a: to prove or show to be just, right

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/justify


(Not according to the definition Paul was using in Romans).

I agree with you. James the Just is well known, both in scripture as well as in historical evidence, to be very insistent on works for a Jew to be considered justified before God.

The passage in Acts 20:21-25 summed up his perspective very clearly.

 

[Judges1318]

Here’s the thing. The believer in the gospel of Christ is justified at the moment of salvation. No matter what happens from that point forward. Justification is a one time event.

You are talking about the definition of 'justified' that Paul used.

Definition of justify

transitive verb
...
2a: to judge, regard, or treat as righteous and worthy of salvation
God justifies with his forgiveness and grace the man who comes to him— Will Herberg

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/justify

 

[John146]

So James, to you, was actually stating that works justify us before God?

Who is the audience James is addressing?

 

[dcontroversal]

Whatever dude

james said if a person has one work their Claimed faith is real

if they have no (zero) work their faith is dead and unable to saved

teue faith produces works, if one has no works their faith was dead.

SHOW ME YOUR faith is clear.....and I see he is arguing facts and no need to engage him.....Jesus explains why in is words.....LET your light shine so MEN can see your works and the FATHER be glorified before men....as long as they conflate JAMES and PAUL and deny facts like they do....it is an utter waste of time...

 

[Guojing]

Interesting isn't, how about ten of us are right on point and in agreement on many doctrines.

Generally in social media, the more likes you get from people, the more you identify with them, and hence you tend to stick in the same threads as those that give you the likes.

 

[Judges1318]

Really? Good works show us to be righteous? No amount of works shows our righteousness. Many lost people do great works. Works prove nothing.

Don't tell me, tell God:

8The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child
1 John 3:8-10

 

[John146]

You are talking about the definition of 'justified' that Paul used.

Definition of justify

transitive verb
...
2a: to judge, regard, or treat as righteous and worthy of salvation
God justifies with his forgiveness and grace the man who comes to him— Will Herberg

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/justify

That’s the only justification in Scripture. People create other definitions because they cannot reconcile Paul with James.

 

[Judges1318]

...

They have the righteousness of CHRIST..
which is by faith

Which verse in Matthew 25:31-46 does Jesus talk about sheep with no righteous works?

 

[CherieR]

The letter of james was specifically addressing a form of partial treatment lacking in love then went on to explain how worthless and dead (without function) this sort of "faith"....

Then goes on to explain how this can effect our witness (even though seen as RIGHTEOUS through faith alone) towards the end of 2 and in 3 and our ability to function as the body of Christ.

All of us have a use in the body and what we do and say ought to be directed by Him in love....


people often take 3 or 4 cherry picked words to twist the meaning of whats being said to say "if you dont work you have no saving faith, and works help justify you as righteous come judgment"


though that is not whats being said in context

I have never heard it explained in that way. Thank you.

 

[Guojing]

Who is the audience James is addressing?

Jews of course. That letter was the first NT book ever written.

 

[Lightskin]

Can you really determine the salvation of another by observing their good works?

Here’s the difference. James is speaking of justification through a persons own faith. James writes:

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Paul says the believer is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified

...

Friend, if you don't have a changed/ changing life you need to be born again. You're not ready for the return of Christ.
Even Luther said that the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works won't be alone but will result in works.

It’s sad that you quote Luther rather than Jesus Christ. I don’t speak on my own behalf I speak for everyone who proclaims the fullness of Christ’s saving grace, but if you want to make it personal that’s fine. I’m a hospice chaplain. I’ve dedicated my life to serving God by serving His people in their most delicate hours of life. So don’t preach to me about needing a changed life. I am carrying my cross daily, to God’s infinite glory.

 

[Judges1318]

That’s the only justification in Scripture. People create other definitions because they cannot reconcile Paul with James.

Then Paul and James contradict each other.

 

[John146]

Jews of course. That letter was the first NT book ever written.

Yes, but it’s been placed after Paul’s writings to the Church. Yes? The tribulation and the second coming was at hand in early Acts when James wrote this letter to the Jews. It is not a Christian epistle. Do you agree?

 

[John146]

Then Paul and James contradict each other.

Nope, they are addressing different audiences. Simple. Paul addresses the body of Christ. James addresses the Jews.

 

[Judges1318]

I’m a hospice chaplain. I’ve dedicated my life to serving God by serving His people in their most delicate hours of life. So don’t preach to me about needing a changed life. I am carrying my cross daily, to God’s infinite glory.

But you said 'yes' when I asked you if you are depending on a faith that has no works attached to it to save you. So how can you be depending on a faith that has no works attached if you don't have a faith with no works attached?

 

[Judges1318]

Nope, they are addressing different audiences. Simple. Paul addresses the body of Christ. James addresses the Jews.

Abraham shows us that justification has never been by works. So it's impossible that the Jews have a gospel where you are made righteous by what you do.

 

[Guojing]

Yes, but it’s been placed after Paul’s writings to the Church. Yes? The tribulation and the second coming was at hand in early Acts when James wrote this letter to the Jews. It is not a Christian epistle. Do you agree?

Yes, but that is because I also follow the principle of rightly dividing the word.

You will have a hard time convincing people here about that, but all the best

 

[Guojing]

Then Paul and James contradict each other.

There are basically a few ways people use to handle James

1. Martin Luther way: Ignore James completely
2. Vertical vs horizontal justification: Seen here, where they reason that Paul is talking about justification before God (vertical) but James is talking about justification before man (horizontal)
3. Believe that all of us are justified by faith initially, but we need works to remain justified.

 

[Judges1318]

No amount of works shows our righteousness. Many lost people do great works. Works prove nothing.

How we treat our enemies especially shows us to be converted, born again people:

32“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. - Luke 6:32-36

Lots of people take false comfort in treating people the same way even unsaved people treat people. But the evidence of conversion is much higher than that and is best seen in how one treats his enemies.

 

[dcontroversal]

Works never justify us before God or man. Ever.

The reason you miss the mark so many times theologically is because of a refusal to acknowledge context and verbiage...

SHOW ME YOUR FAITH is the context of JAMES.....and yes INDEED a man's claim of FAITH can be JUSTIFIED before MEN based upon actions.....

The first line is why you and I will never be in agreement on most truths.....

JESUS was clear.....OUR WORKS before MEN justify our claim of faith and GLORIFY the FATHER