Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E

EleventhHour

Guest
I did deal with them. There are two easy answers that are consistent with everything I’ve stated.

It’s a given all man are born physically. So
There would be no real point in saying we must be born physically and then born spiritually.

Being born of water and spirit is baptism. It’s not being of water and then of spirit. It’s joined together. Everyman is born physically. Then those who are saved will be born of water and spirit.

Secondly let’s say water here is physical. It’s not a issue at all because I previously showed how actions can carry a spiritual result.

Being baptized is being born of spirit. Just like what the other verses say earlier about manna being physical and spiritual.
There is one direct analogy the Jesus is making for Nicodemus.

Stay with the context..

’He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?" Jesus was speaking on a spiritual level and Nicodemus on an earthly one.

Nicodemus makes a direct reference to physical birth and Jesus carries on that analogy and does not jump to baptism which is nowhere in view.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
For future reference. I’m not going to be responding anymore. I don’t do chase the rabbit style comments. When I have time I’ll make a entire post about why baptism is essential and why praying Jesus into your heart is false.
Baptism is not salvation. There is no work of man's hands that saves.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
As long as jokers and religionists conflate what took place in wilderness with eternal salvation they will continue to miss the mark!
Yes it seems so.. conflating, denial of obvious text!

And another error ...clearly Jesus was not telling Nicodemus to go get baptized for salvation.

And then .......................we have our high profile Calvinists who teach that Jesus was telling Nicodemus about how regeneration precedes belief. :rolleyes:
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
4,586
113
For me I just can’t take someone’s personal experience and hold it above God’s word. Gods word on doctrine trumps personal feelings and experiences. Baptism is a clearly taught event that is foreshadowed repeatedly throughout the Torah and bleeds into the New Testament synchronizing the spiritual with the physical.


1 Corinthians 10:1-5
New American Standard Bible



Avoid Israel’s Mistakes
10 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our father were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

When the Jews in the wilderness was eating manna and drinking the water from the stone it gets linked to spiritual food and water. When they went through the waters , as if buried by them but coming out of it , they were baptized into Moses.

We see that same thing spelled out again in Romans 6:1-6.


Romans 6:1-6
New American Standard Bible



Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God
6 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

The imagery is once again being submerged by water.

We step into the water just like Jesus was placed on the cross. We are submerged into the water just like Jesus was buried in the ground. We resurface out of the water in new life just like Christ resurrected from the dead. Being baptized in water is when we are baptized by the spirit. There is one baptism.


Ephesians 4:5
New American Standard Bible


5one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

In the Old Testament the act of circumcision was not only physical but was also a spiritual thing making them Jews. It was a physical actions that carried spiritual implications. Baptism is the same.


Colossians 2:11-12
New American Standard Bible



When we are baptized in water, we receive the circumcision of Christ and this baptism, though physical is an action of faith , an appeal of our conscience , that results in a spiritual thing.

We know that this baptism is the same was water baptism because of what Peter wrote.


1 Peter 3:18-21
New American Standard Bible


THIS IS THE BAPTISM IT IS TALKING ABOUT IN EPH. 4:5, because even the THIEF ON THE CROSS was IMMERSED with this type of BAPTISM.

Romans 6:3 (NASB)
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?


GOD DID NOT FORGET THAT THE THIEF ON THE CROSS HAD NEVER BEEN BAPTIZED IN WATER, when HE CHOSE TO USE all.


1 Corinthians 12:13-14 (NASB)
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body,
whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.


I have proven to you that it is NOT TALKING ABOUT WATER BAPTISM, but you are free to believe what you want.
You have already PROVEN your PERSONAL FALSE INTERPRETATION is more important to you than what GOD's WORD ACTUALLY SAYS.



Since you do not know me, I need to explain that this BOLD TEST AND THE COLORS, do not mean I am YELLING. I am 71 years old, and when I went to school, IT NEVER MEANT THAT WE WERE YELLING, when is what FACE BOOK changed their meaning to be. I have never had a Face Book account, and never will. I REFUSE TO GO BY FACE BOOK RULES. It means ONLY EMPHASIS, and will continue to be so until I die.



Now it is my turn to ask a question. Why on GOD's Green earth would you CHOOSE to use a picture of a very Poisonous Mushroom as your Avatar, as a so-called CHRISTIAN ? ? ? It is a FLY AGARIC and is the mushroom that is used to make FLY POISON. You stir pieces of it in with Milk, and used in EUROPE especially, is used as Fly Poison. Set it out side and it will kill flies, HOWEVER if a cat or dog licks it, they will die also. It is poisonous to humans to, but is small quantities it is used by hippies as a Hallucinogenic. GOD SAID BE SOBER AT ALL TIMES. So what is that doing on your AVATAR ? ? ? What if you encourage a kid to try it, and they ingest too MUCH and die? Are you not responsible in some way of that death ? ? ?

 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
4,586
113
For future reference. I’m not going to be responding anymore. I don’t do chase the rabbit style comments. When I have time I’ll make a entire post about why baptism is essential and why praying Jesus into your heart is false.

You want me to Prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Salvation has NOTHING to do with WATER ? ? ?


2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.


So EVERYTHING IN OUR LIFE HAPPENS AFTER SALVATION.

So what is it saying ? ? ?

It is saying that BECAUSE of SALVATION, the HOLY SPIRIT changes our HEART to BE LIKE HIS. We will want to OBEY, out of LOVE FOR HIM.

Our CHRISTIAN WALK, we will want to walk like HIM. So we will want to be baptized in WATER LIKE HIM. BUT SALVATION was a FREE GIFT FROM GOD. IT IS PART OF THE CHRISTIAN's Walk, NOT SOMETHING WE DO TO GET SAVED.

1 John 2:6 (NASB)
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.


It is a lifestyle we led, AFTER SALVATION has come IN, and when we STUMBLE, we have JOHN 1:9 to help us with that.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
Yes it seems so.. conflating, denial of obvious text!

And another error ...clearly Jesus was not telling Nicodemus to go get baptized for salvation.

And then .......................we have our high profile Calvinists who teach that Jesus was telling Nicodemus about how regeneration precedes belief. :rolleyes:
Hahahha "High profile Calvinites" haha now that was funny! And tragically true even though it is as false as what the snake said in the garden.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
4,586
113
OKAY, I have seen enough big Recluses in one day to get out the Sprayer.


I saw on my house by the back door, One in the GARAGE where I was working, and another dart across the Patio, but he did not make it. SPLAT! I stepped on him. So I abandoned all my other projects and got out the Sprayer, and mixed some potent Spray, and proceeded to kill Spiders. I just heard a lady had to have her leg amputated, because of an Recluse bite. CNN, classifies it as one of the most dangerous spiders in America. I will go around the house again Tomorrow, a double dose of spray. I really hate those things.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,037
13,041
113
58
I disagree. Salvation is granted by God as an undeserved kindness. If we continue to exercise faith [have a living faith] in the ransom sacrifice of Christ we are saved. Hebrews 6:4-6 gives one example of how salvation can be lost.
Can you show me the specific words, "lost salvation" in scripture? I have commonly heard three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it "unequivocally" teaches a really "saved" person truly "lost their salvation." According to the hypothetical interpretation, the key word in the passage is IF (verse 6). According to this view, the writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement, "IF a Christian were to fall away." The passage then presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can permanently fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion that they would crucify again for themselves the Son of God.

In regards to the never truly saved view, the words, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive..

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God, yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these positive factors may be genuine Christians, yet these factors alone are not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of the Christian life (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, adoption etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we see in (Hebrews 10:26-39)

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responded to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead unbelievers to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" which is the guarantee of future inheritance. Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regards to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of the quality of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we simply "taste" into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13).

In regards to fall away, in Proverbs 24:16, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times AND rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. Those who permanently fall away demonstrate they were not truly born again. (1 John 2:19)

In regards to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for your argument.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We read in scripture that good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that the writer of Hebrews is talking about people who are not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. *Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. *There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
4,586
113
OKAY, I have seen enough big Recluses in one day to get out the Sprayer.



I saw on my house by the back door, One in the GARAGE where I was working, and another dart across the Patio, but he did not make it. SPLAT! I stepped on him. So I abandoned all my other projects and got out the Sprayer, and mixed some potent Spray, and proceeded to kill Spiders. I just heard a lady had to have her leg amputated, because of an Recluse bite. CNN, classifies it as one of the most dangerous spiders in America. I will go around the house again Tomorrow, a double dose of spray. I really hate those things.
I forgot to mention, that picture was not there Normal Size, as this one picture above is average size. However they can grow to two fingers wide in their body length. THEY IDENTIFYING MARK that you cannot mistake is the FIDDLE shaped mark on his back near his head. Yesterday the one I saw organizing my wood pile in the Garage, as he crawled up the wall out of that wood pile was two fingers wide, in body length. I see them, and I kind of enlarge them to size of the original picture. I am more scared of them than the Black Widow.

Here are some Recluse Bite Victims. I will keep the pictures small as they are rather gross, and these people did not seek Medical Attention. Yes, Recluses are common placed in the northern hemisphere. They usually are not seen, as they hide under boards or rocks.

.
.


Their Poisons from bites eat away at the flesh. So seek medical attention, immediately. These did not until it got far worse.
I have been bitten one time in the past. It looks like a very tiny rattle snake bite at first, but it grows fast in hours. With Medical treatment the sore only got no bigger than a pencil eraser. NO RECLUSE BITE IS ANYTHING YOU WANT TO WAIT A DAY OR TWO. If someone is allergic to bee stings, they could die.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,879
4,333
113
These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responded to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead unbelievers to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" which is the guarantee of future inheritance. Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)
Hi MMD I have highlighted and underlined above in your quote.

So pleased you said that.

The conviction of sin that Jesus said the Holy Spirit to come when he went back to heaven was that of unbelief in Jesus.

Pre-salvation state and when we repent of that sin on unbelief then we are saved.

Shame that many misinterpreted the following

John 16:8-9
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,879
4,333
113
That is beautiful no doubt...I do enjoy a beautiful skyline though at night.

I like nature and man made structures... depending on my mood...;)

I love seeing animals in the wild...Alaska was great for that...but spiders...not a fan.
We booked a full family holiday last year for August.

We have 4 kids and we booked two caravans because our two eldest had a partner.

We booked a place we went to over the their younger years (our kids)

Given COVID we thought about deferral to next year, decided to go in the end because the reason we booked was because it may be the last one for a while.

Anyway this place called Devon Cliffs has a private beach, there is a walk down to the beach.

There is a cafe/restaurant that over looks the beach, the Atlantic Ocean.

You can see the expanse of the Ocean.

I would sit outside the cafe and look at the expanse of the Ocean.

We had been there 8 times before this holiday and for those 8 times I would sit with my coffee and praise God.

I would sit there and be reminded of Job 38-42 (chapters) and found myself immersed in God. Realising I know nothing but knowing he knows everything.

Alas I couldn't do it this year because of restrictions.

But was an amazing holiday, my eldest daughter got engaged in that beach.

My son and his girlfriend told us they want to marry in June 2020

All are Christian.

I missed my time overlooking the sea but it was surplated by the fact remains that for my first 2 eldest and their partners are belivers.

I could not ask for more and that is what I have always asked for.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
We booked a full family holiday last year for August.

We have 4 kids and we booked two caravans because our two eldest had a partner.

We booked a place we went to over the their younger years (our kids)

Given COVID we thought about deferral to next year, decided to go in the end because the reason we booked was because it may be the last one for a while.

Anyway this place called Devon Cliffs has a private beach, there is a walk down to the beach.

There is a cafe/restaurant that over looks the beach, the Atlantic Ocean.

You can see the expanse of the Ocean.

I would sit outside the cafe and look at the expanse of the Ocean.

We had been there 8 times before this holiday and for those 8 times I would sit with my coffee and praise God.

I would sit there and be reminded of Job 38-42 (chapters) and found myself immersed in God. Realising I know nothing but knowing he knows everything.

Alas I couldn't do it this year because of restrictions.

But was an amazing holiday, my eldest daughter got engaged in that beach.

My son and his girlfriend told us they want to marry in June 2020

All are Christian.

I missed my time overlooking the sea but it was surplated by the fact remains that for my first 2 eldest and their partners are belivers.

I could not ask for more and that is what I have always asked for.
I am very happy for you and your family. Congratulations on the upcoming nuptials.