Not By Works

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Phoneman-777

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so, in other words, God gives us a way and a chance to get get saved, but it is up to us to preform and behave in order to get and maintain that salvation.

o.k. that is what man-made religion says. and man-made religion leads one straight to hell on path of fake self-righteousness,
Choice is not work, it's thought, OK? When you choose to surrender to your will to God's will...when faced with temptation and you say, "not my will but Thy will", that is "choice" which is not "works", it's "thought".

Any obedience that follows is the "work" of Jesus living out His life through us and keeping His own law for us, accomplishing for us that which we are wholly unable to do for ourselves. He does it all and gets all the credit when we overcome temptation.

What did we learn? CHOICE IS NOT WORK, IT'S THOUGHT.
 

Phoneman-777

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As a person who underwent cauterisation that did not work I can tell you that I still suffer the consequences of it.

We know as you rightly say that the purpose of cauterisation is to stop the pain and trauma of an injury a wound in the hope that it heals.

Now in my case and being honest as I said my physical cauterisation did not work for the physical cause.

Now given my post 150,253 I hope you realize that as a result goodness knows how many wounds that resulted in many consequences from spiritual to emotional to physical to addiction.

I had the pain of all the above.

Severe anxiety, severe gambling.
Yet I never ever lost my faith in Jesus whilst gambling an awful lot of money.
I prayed so hard, I anointed oil over the gambling doors I went to asked angels to guard the door for me.

Yet it never worked. I got to the stage and asked God to kill me.
I was fed up of living hell on earth. And wanted to know where I was going.
Tried a couple of times to turn the wheel of my car over a bridge on the motorway but the wheel would not turn.

This was all going on even though I had wife and 4 kids. Running a business turning over $30m and 35 employees.

Now many people wrote me off because I stopped going to church. I even had a successful ministry in church which I asked to step back from. Young family, spiritually and emotionally and physically knackered (didn't tell them of the other struggles was too ashamed) I tried to approach the leaders for help but was refused because I wasn't giving out to the church anymore.

So my brother given what I have said and if you didn't know what what I was going through but did know what I was doing how would you thought of me?
Would you have written me off like some who did? Honest answer please.

Just so you know the cause of the wounds that led to affect were cauterised approx 30 years after. If you are interested I will let you know.

But to finish, did I backslide?
Did I quench?
Did I lose my thirst?
Did I not feel the holy spirit seeking me out?

Do you as a son of God judge and put a time limit on People like me or do you seek them out and walk with them to help them?
Are you willing to dig in and find out why?

Or are you the person who just says "Bible says don't do it so just stop it?
While I'm sorry you are suffering from a failed medical procedure, anecdotal evidence is not evidence at all, it's just a human interest story.

The FACTS are that Paul uses a Greek word that is a medical term which clearly means to "kill the nerve" when he says "sear". The point he's intending to convey is that persistent stubborn rebellion to the Holy Spirit will lead to a "cauterizing of the conscience" - just as a wound is cauterized so that we will no longer feel it - where we don't feel the impress of the Holy Spirit and thus wind up in a state where we are rendered incapable of repentance, plain and simple.

BTW I hope your situation improves either through prayer or medical advancement, my friend :)
 

BillG

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Feb 15, 2017
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While I'm sorry you are suffering from a failed medical procedure, anecdotal evidence is not evidence at all, it's just a human interest story.

The FACTS are that Paul uses a Greek word that is a medical term which clearly means to "kill the nerve" when he says "sear". The point he's intending to convey is that persistent stubborn rebellion to the Holy Spirit will lead to a "cauterizing of the conscience" - just as a wound is cauterized so that we will no longer feel it - where we don't feel the impress of the Holy Spirit and thus wind up in a state where we are rendered incapable of repentance, plain and simple.

BTW I hope your situation improves either through prayer or medical advancement, my friend :)
Any chance you can answer my questions?

Thank you for your wishes concerning my medical procedure.
It happened when I was 4. My dad went to hit my mum but bashed my nose and face.
Had corrective surgery when I was 20.
About 6 weeks later the splints were removed from my nose (not a nice experience, it felt like a big spoon being pulled out of my nostrils and a bucket of snot following)

For about 6 weeks I could smell flowers and grass. I thank God even today for those six weeks.

I have arthritis in my knees due to severe injuries to my ACL/PCL playing football.
As a result my professional contract was rescinded.
Was told I would need knee replacements by now.
Still suffer with it but at the moment not considered because I can still walk with minimal pain even when I'm laid up with a jar/jolt when walking.

I thank God for my knackered knees.

We must always remember that God does not call the qualified but qualifies the called.
 

crossnote

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Nov 24, 2012
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You're making my point. God allows consequences so that the Christian's fleshly desires can be destroyed that he might meet Jesus in peace, but if the Christian hardens his heart and refuses to turn back, "the latter end of them is worse than the beginning". Did not God say, "Ephraim is joined to his idols...leave him alone." Did not Jesus say to Israel, "Your house is left unto you desolate"? Did God say He was going to destroy the entire Israelite vineyard and everything in it in Isaiah 5, with no promised restoration, which refers to 70 A.D., not the Babylonian captivity?
No I wasn't making your point. Your point was, " He simply gives us up and allows us to serve our old master, sin."
My point is that he continues His discipline until He takes us home (if needs be), and in no ways casts His children into hell, no matter how much their failure.
I don't know which god you are serving, but I know those to whom Jesus says, "Depart from Me, ye that work iniquity" are now serving the throne of iniquity (Psalm 94:20 KJV) while thinking they're serving God.
You might try that one in context...

Matthew 7:21-23 (KJV) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He NEVER knew them. In other words, they were not His children. Besides, they were trusting in their own works...'prophesied', 'cast out demons', 'did wonderful works' etc.
Kinda like those who think they can stay saved through their good works.
 

Phoneman-777

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2019
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Any chance you can answer my questions?

Thank you for your wishes concerning my medical procedure.
It happened when I was 4. My dad went to hit my mum but bashed my nose and face.
Had corrective surgery when I was 20.
About 6 weeks later the splints were removed from my nose (not a nice experience, it felt like a big spoon being pulled out of my nostrils and a bucket of snot following)

For about 6 weeks I could smell flowers and grass. I thank God even today for those six weeks.

I have arthritis in my knees due to severe injuries to my ACL/PCL playing football.
As a result my professional contract was rescinded.
Was told I would need knee replacements by now.
Still suffer with it but at the moment not considered because I can still walk with minimal pain even when I'm laid up with a jar/jolt when walking.

I thank God for my knackered knees.

We must always remember that God does not call the qualified but qualifies the called.
Good gravy, man, what a terrible series of unfortunate events! So sorry to hear about all that. However, you are so right that God knows what He's doing and "all things work for good". I've heard several stories of people who were far from God but a tragedy struck and forced them to draw close to Him and eventually surrender.

A woman who was a successful nightclub singer in Vegas (I think) had an awful accident that left her without feeling in her legs, and it led to her becoming a Christian. One day, while lying in bed, a lamp or something caught the sheets on fire and although she was able to smother it, she suffered some severe burns on her legs. At the hospital, her Pastor arrived struggling to find something encouraging to say, but when he got to her room, he discovered she wasn't discouraged in the least, and actually began to lift him up! When he confessed that he didn't expect her to be in such great spirits, she said, "Pastor, do you remember that picture of me at home (referring to the one of her sitting at a nightclub table with the really short dress and too much makeup and booze bottles and glasses covering the table and everything) hanging up in the hallway?"

She said, "Pastor, that was my life before the accident, and now I thank God for the accident!!!"
 

Phoneman-777

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No I wasn't making your point. Your point was, " He simply gives us up and allows us to serve our old master, sin."
Sorry, that's not Biblical. It says he turns us over to Satan that our spirit "might" be saved in the day of Jesus; the operative word being "might". Now, you'll have to reconcile your position with the texts I posted which clearly shows there eventually comes a point of no return for the backsliding Christian:

"There is a line unseen by us,
that crosses every path,
the hidden boundary between
God's mercy and His wrath."
 

crossnote

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Nov 24, 2012
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It says he turns us over to Satan that our spirit "might" be saved in the day of Jesus; the operative word being "might".
The verb 'may' /'might' is in the aorist passive subjunctive and therefore does not fit your narrative. The sense is not that the spirit 'might' be saved, but rather 'in order that the spirit might will be saved.
 

OIC1965

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Sep 19, 2020
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I know personally people who just do not simply care anymore.
There is a danger of hardening, but whom God foreknew, He also predestinated, called, justified, and glorified.
The foundation of God is sure; the Lord knows who are His, and let everyone who names the name of Jesus depart from iniquity.
 

OIC1965

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Sep 19, 2020
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The verb 'may' /'might' is in the aorist passive subjunctive and therefore does not fit your narrative. The sense is not that the spirit 'might' be saved, but rather 'in order that the spirit might will be saved.
Correct. Purpose clauses in Greek use subjunctive verbs, but often only subjunctive in form, not in meaning.
 

star

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Nov 8, 2017
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North Carolina
There is only one way to heaven and that is through Jesus the Christ. He that is able to save our souls is also able to keep what He has saved. If we are incapable to save ourselves, we are as well incapable to Keep our Salvation.
 

Phoneman-777

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There is only one way to heaven and that is through Jesus the Christ. He that is able to save our souls is also able to keep what He has saved. If we are incapable to save ourselves, we are as well incapable to Keep our Salvation.
We are more than capable of choosing to accept or reject salvation - and we do not lose our freedom of choice to either "abide in the Vine" or withdraw our surrender and go back to serving the world.

Love never compels, nor does it enslave.
 

gb9

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Jan 18, 2011
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We are more than capable of choosing to accept or reject salvation - and we do not lose our freedom of choice to either "abide in the Vine" or withdraw our surrender and go back to serving the world.

Love never compels, nor does it enslave.
trust and faith in Christ save. while good behavior should follow, good behavior has 0 to do with salvation.


believe- saved.

non belief- not saved.

everything beyond that is a separate conversation.
 

BillG

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Feb 15, 2017
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Sorry, that's not Biblical. It says he turns us over to Satan that our spirit "might" be saved in the day of Jesus; the operative word being "might". Now, you'll have to reconcile your position with the texts I posted which clearly shows there eventually comes a point of no return for the backsliding Christian:

"There is a line unseen by us,
that crosses every path,
the hidden boundary between
God's mercy and His wrath."
What makes you think that the man in Corinthians was actually a Christian?
Nothing that I can see in the passage indicates he was a genuine beliver that I can see.

We know that this sin was abhorrent to the Pagans and even the culture and the Jewish community.

1 Corinthians 5:1
Sin in Relationships (5:1–6:20)
Paul Confronts Sexual Immorality and Spiritual Pride
1 I can hardly believe the report about the sexual immorality going on among you—something that even pagans don’t do. I am told that a man in your church is living in sin with his stepmother.

Now it seems that the church accepted this. So now they have allowed a little leaven into the church.

We find that Paul is not actually addressing the sinful nature of people outside of the church. He says

1 Corinthians 5:9-10

Immorality Must Be Judged
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.

So it has nothing to do with sexually immoral people outside of the church because if it was then they would not be in the world and preach the gospel.

The later verses in chapter 5 is Paul clarifying what he meant.

1 Corinthians 5:9

Immorality Must Be Judged
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.

Then he clarifies

1 Corinthians 5:11-13
11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

Verse 11 does not say a brother, it's a named brother.
Basically someone claims to be a brother (genuine beliver) yet is living in unrepentant sin. Therefore discipline him, excommunicate him from you in the hope that he will repent of this sin.

The premise I'm trying to make here is that we cannot assume this man was saved to begin with.

The purpose of this whole chapter is

To convict people in the church not to be fooled by their spiritual state.

1 Corinthians 10:12
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

To protect the spiritual health of believers

Galatians 2:4
4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage),

To not give unberlievers an excuse to slam the church

1 Peter 2:12
12 having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation.

As I say nothing in this chapter suggests the man was saved to begin with.
 

PC123

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Jun 22, 2020
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Not by works except if you do bad works then it means u aren't saved...
So... Then... Is it by works or not???

This debate is so pointless. Its just evolved into a tribalistic war...
We're all baptized, we all believe in Christ and we all agree that bad works will not get us saved...
So how about stopping this useless argument among yourselves and realizing that its the evil one that provokes such a nonsense debate...

Pope John Paul did a joint declaration with many reformed churches to create the joint doctrine of justification...
Pope John Paul also reached out to the Orthodox church to mend their past wounds...

We should all be more like Pope John Paul. We should look at what we agree on rather than the minor things that we disagree on.
 

BillG

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Feb 15, 2017
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Not by works except if you do bad works then it means u aren't saved...
So... Then... Is it by works or not???

This debate is so pointless. Its just evolved into a tribalistic war...
We're all baptized, we all believe in Christ and we all agree that bad works will not get us saved...
So how about stopping this useless argument among yourselves and realizing that its the evil one that provokes such a nonsense debate...

Pope John Paul did a joint declaration with many reformed churches to create the joint doctrine of justification...
Pope John Paul also reached out to the Orthodox church to mend their past wounds...

We should all be more like Pope John Paul. We should look at what we agree on rather than the minor things that we disagree on.
Neither will good works get us saved.

You seem to intimate this.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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So then bad works will get you saved?
1 Corinthians 3:13-15
13 But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value. 14 If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. 15 But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.
 

PC123

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Jun 22, 2020
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1 Corinthians 3:13-15
13 But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value. 14 If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. 15 But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.
U didn't answer my question but anyway, u can continue this pointless debate with others. It doesn't interest me
 

Guojing

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Jan 12, 2019
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Not by works except if you do bad works then it means u aren't saved...
So... Then... Is it by works or not???
Yep, its basically a circular argument.

It is faith without works that save, but if you claim to have faith but there are no works following, your faith is dead and could not save.

Its enough to make many heads spin ;)