Not By Works

[Guojing]

Romans 6:16 KJV most definitely says works MUST follow salvation:

"Know ye not to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness?"​

Does that sound like obedience is optional?

Death is from Adam sin, life is from Christ Obedience

The context in Romans 5:12-19 is Christ obedience, not yours

Romans 5 is before Romans 6

 

[Guojing]

I did mean God's works in and thru us

As long as you agree works are done by us for rewards, we are in the same page

 

[Evmur]

As long as you agree works are done by us for rewards, we are in the same page

....
.... and as long as you agree that those who built with stubble and hay did not lose their salvation.

 

[Evmur]

That would be a nonsensical concept indeed. The Bible does not say that the Prodigal Son plucked himself. He just got up and left. God will not let any force from the outside pluck us. Any child would understand this. Only a desperate Calvinist would try to float that lead balloon.

ya ya ya ya
God brought him back and He did not quit on him, every day, every day without fail the father was at the gate, watching and waiting.

See predestiny is built into the way we are made, we must eat or we will die. God got him into a corner. That's what He does.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Many of them refer to God's faithfulness towards us. The problem is with our faithfulness, not His. He will forgive the humble who do their best. But many Prodigal Sons will never return. Keeping our lamps trimmed and burning does not require a long list of good works, but we must never demand to go our own way and become bitter against God. I'm sure you have seen this happen.

You have not answered my question.you keep for some reason dodging the issue,

here let’s try this..

Because God said he who began a good work will complete it

here in Phil 4. Our assurance given from Paul, that he who began (Christ) will complete it until the day of Christ, where is the word might complete it? Where did Paul say unless we stop him? Where is any onus on us?

because God said we have been given the spirit as a seal

actually said three times by Paul, all three times and all three times, this seal was until the day of redemption or the resurrection day, god gave this down payment, that means he made a pledge to pay in full, if he does not pay in full, he loses his pledge (I hope you understand how this works in a bank system). That puts the onus on Christ, not on you and I,

because God said he will never leave nor forsake us,

I think it is in the OT. We have king david and anothe prophet who spoke of where can we go that we can hide fromGod, if we go to the heights, there he is if we go to the depths there he is, if we go to the east or to the rest, there he is, there is no place we can go, where he is not. There, so when he says he will never depart us he means it, you can’t go to where he is not, so why would you think it is even possible to depart for him?

because god said if one of his sheep leaves he will leave the whole flock to go find that lost sheep, and the sheep hears his voice and returns,

Here we have the prodigal son, if he is. True sheep, he returns, if he is not, he will not hear the voice of his Jesus because Jesus is not his master, only the true sheep return, I know, I was this person. And I heard the calling for quite a while, between that and the chastening of God, I could not resist the calling without suffering g extreme pain and anguish.

because God said he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified

perfected forever? Where is our part in this? It says in a moment in time we were perfected forever, and it makes it clear. Those he perfected are in the process of being sanctified, there are many aspects in being sanctified, one thing it does not say is we might be perfected forever at a later date, this is a done deal. once again, if it fails, it is Gods fault. Not ours,

so here you go. please show where I am wrong on these points,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Neither.

Neither?

so John lied?

1 John 3:
6 Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

I mean really bro, John said it I believe it, why don’t you?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But not all do return.

They don’t return for one of two reasons

1. they never were a true child

2. they died before they had the chance.

if they were true sheep, they were still children, perfected forever. sealed by the spirit, and had eternal life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Matthew
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

This is not a grievous task for the man who yields control to God's Spirit.

That’s not how we get saved.

that’s how we become morally upright people. Jesus was saying basically, this is how we as believers, keep the law, we can’t do this until we are saved, as the word says, its not that we loved, it’s that he loved us, scripture also says we love because he first loved us,

if you using this to maintain your salvation, your trying to earn it, making salvation a reward, not a gift of God, paid by the blood of Christ,

we have been redeemed, we are not redeeming ourself,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not so. God is always faithful towards us.

amen, that’s why we will never stop having faith, we may waiver, but it will never turn to unbelief,

You fellows always fall back on this.(You kind of have to so you can prop up your three legged dog)

it’s a fact, and it’s substantiated not only in real life examples. But in the word,

an unbeliever is literally an antichrist, John said they were never of us, it’s a fact, not a three legged dog.

in real life, again, you lose faith and turn to unbelief for two reasons

1. you never had faith to begin with
2. the person proves to be untrustworthy or unfaithful

as yu agreed, God is always faithful. So to all of a sudden say you no longer believe. Well god did not fit your standard of what yu wanted him to be, to yu he was unfaithful and untrustworthy, you did not believe in who he really was to begin with

 

[Phoneman-777]

Not exactly, but you can read my reply to the "antagonist" of this thread here

https://christianchat.com/threads/not-by-works.146296/post-4520428

You spelled "protagonist" wrong

 

[Phoneman-777]

That’s not how we get saved.

No kidding, Capt. Obvious.

We're saved by grace through faith in Christ and His promises - which do not include a promise of a OSAS License to Sin because His commandments are too grievous for some to follow.

Christ knew those who love Him wouldn't need something so ridiculous, and that those who found His commandments too grievous would try to forge one in the fiery furnace of hell (Ezekiel 13:22 KJV).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There we go again

But but but but they must not have been saved in the first place?

It gets easier once you shed your Calvinistic flubber.

I am not calvinistic.

I just believe in a true and faithful god, understanding that he will never let me down, and I got on my knees because I became bankrupt in spirit knowing I had absolutely nothing, and called out for Gods mercy, and he not only saved me, but made me a new creature, gave me eternal hope, and gave me life. And I truly experienced these things, I am not going to repent again and want to go back to where I was bankrupt in the first place.

many people claim to have said a sinners prayer and claim to have faith in Jesus, but they did not have true faith. They had mere belief, which is good, as James said, but is it good enough to save them? Even demons believe yet tremble. These people who leave do not even tremble, they are secure in their unbelief, because they have never experience a true new birth.

it’s not a calvinist view, they may have a doctrine, but the Bible has the truth. And the Bible says anyone who was with us, and departed in unbelief, was never of us,

eternal life is eternal, not conditional, and John said I have it, and he said it is this knowledge that we KnOw we have it that causes us to continue to believe.

your trying to take that knowledge away, and tell,people,they don’t really have it, they have to endure if they want to keep it, which means it’s not eternal, it conditional, on us,

faith in self is not assuring, that’s why it will never sustain itself,

 

[Evmur]

Salvation is only to those who repent and surrender -- and only those who want to make provision for continuing in sin require a OSAS License to Sin.

That is what Paul's critics accused him of, their condemnation is just.

we serve God out of an overflowing gratitude and love when we understand how freely He has forgiven us.

Now Paul's critics accused him that his doctrine of grace leads to licentiousness that's what YOU now accuse us of.

Why do people never accuse YOU of it? you must be preaching a different gospel to Paul.

 

[Evmur]

I think we all agree that no one can kidnap us or steal us out of the hand of God, but I am addressing the fact that we must abide in the vine and not voluntarily walk away from Him. You will simply insist that such a person was not saved in the first place. You write your own dictionaries and completely ignore the true meanings of words like "apostate". Not much I can say to people who go to those lengths to forge their own doctrines.

What does the branch do exactly in order to abide on the vine? and where are we to walk away to to get away from God? shall we make our bed in the sea? or take the wings of a dove and fly to the far side of the mountain? will God not be there and His right hand hold us fast?

God will punish and straying has many hurts and sorrows but the Good Shepherd has a 100% per cent record of bringing His straying sheeps home.

 

[Guojing]

....
.... and as long as you agree that those who built with stubble and hay did not lose their salvation.

Yes of course, I quoted 1 Cor 3:10-15 for that already

 

[Guojing]

You spelled "protagonist" wrong

This thread is a well known echo chamber so from the majority's point of view, they do not view you as one

But then again, we are always the protagonist from our own point of view.

 

[Phoneman-777]

I am not calvinistic

At the very least, you're drinking Calvinist Lite - tastes great, but less filling due to the empty calories

Let's prove it:

T - you claim the Christian remains so Totally Depraved, the law is too grievous for him to keep.
U - Both Unconditional Election and you claim we're not saved by a belief which demands surrender.
L - Limited Atonement - not deceived by that
I - Irresistible Grace - not deceived by that
P - Preservation of the Saints - otherwise known as OSAS. Once your ticket is punched, you're stuck on the train.

Wanna try five outta seven? LOL

 

[Phoneman-777]

we serve God out of an overflowing gratitude and love when we understand how freely He has forgiven us.

Ahhhhhhh, I see it now...your spirit is willing but your flesh is weak which is why His commandments are "too grievous" to keep -- and why we have to be OSAS.

That's how a marriage proposal works, right?

"Hey, darlin, I want you to be my wife, but when it comes to other women, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. I'm sure you'll understand."

 

[Evmur]

Ahhhhhhh, I see it now...your spirit is willing but your flesh is weak which is why His commandments are "too grievous" to keep -- and why we have to be OSAS.

That's how a marriage proposal works, right?

"Hey, darlin, I want you to be my wife, but when it comes to other women, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. I'm sure you'll understand."

That's what Peter said
"Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the necks of the Gentiles which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear"? James wrote a letter absolving the Gentiles from keeping the laws of Moses.

You do not keep the commandments of Moses

 

[Phoneman-777]

That's what Peter said
"Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the necks of the Gentiles which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear"? James wrote a letter absolving the Gentiles from keeping the laws of Moses.

You do not keep the commandments of Moses

Yes, that Mosaic Law of ceremonies and sacrifices and pilgrimages is done away.

What about the Moral Law? Is the Christian free to rob bank or must he follow "Thou shalt not steal"?