Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

Joh 6:44　 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him to life on the last day.
　
Joh 6:45　 It is written in the Prophets, 'And all of them will be taught by God.' Everyone who has listened to the Father and has learned anything comes to me.
　
Joh 6:46　 Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who comes from God. This one has seen the Father.　


Joh 6:47　 Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, the one who believes in me has eternal life.
　
Joh 6:48　 I am the bread of life.　

Does the first verse strike out free choice? I have a headache and is hard to think deeper.

No, many are called few are closed, God drew Judah's to himself, yet he as Jesus said was the devil. God is only obligated to draw people he knows will respond, if he knows that no matter what you will never respond, he has no obligation to draw. Romans 1 says all know, so no excuse anyway, it also says the HS convicts the world, if the respond, God will draw them close, if they do nit t respond to conviction, why bother drawing?

 

[Ariel82]

While I do not disagree on your statement with regards to how free we truly are. Redefining terms to have them mean what we want them to mean according to our beliefs is problematic.

So often on CC this just leads to error refuting error.

People use the same words but they are saying different things.


Free will as understood in classical philosophy means exactly that our will is completely free and there is no choice that is made that has some other determining factor. The term defines itself it cannot be reworked to mean something else.

....the problematic thing with not accepting other definitions of free will is that when you engage conversation with other people...you are talking about apples and they are talking about kitty cats.

Unless you establish a common definition for the terms used,then conversation doesn't actually happen.

I believe my view of free will has been established and defined by theologicans can't quote them at the moment but I know I wasn't smart enough to come up with it on my own. I just summarized what I believe and agree with in relation to scriptures and the concept of free will.

 

[JIMBO43]

Amen....so far at least 4 of the workers for in this thread have denied the fact or refused to answer honestly about Jesus paying our sin debt.......the following verses are clear.....

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world


AND the HOLY spirit convicts of SIN because they BELIEVE NOT ON ME

welll obviously he didnt take it away completely coz now we have more sinners than ever befor...

 

[Ariel82]

...........................

Yeah didn't think you would actually answer with something to edify or even clarify what is being said, but one can hope one day you might.

 

[BillG]

not one part part of your your scripture says jesus paid for all mans sins

So are you saying that Jesus did not pay for all mans sins.

Not talking univerlism here.

So what do you think Jesus accomplished on the cross?

 

[dcontroversal]

welll obviously he didnt take it away completely coz now we have more sinners than ever befor...

You miss the point entirely.....and how the blood is only applied by faith.......!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

oooooh.
We agree!

Now explain to me HOW that once we are saved, we CANNOT leave God???

Doesn't this take away my free will?
Can't I leave Him if I WANT to?

I already explained this once

you do not lose faith in someone who never gives you reason to lose faith, unless you never really had faith to begin with.

eph 1 says. Have basically been given every spiritual blessing, if I believe that to begin with, and I experience it because it is true, leaving would be the most foolish thing ever,

its RS like a person gives you unlimited buying power, never having to pay anything back, and you use if for years, then all of a sudden, you deny it? Yeah right.

you want to think a person given eternal life, and everything they need spiritually will walk away and deny Christ? Feel free,

but it do not try to convince me it is possible, it's not.

 

[Ariel82]

FOR ARIEL...

Quote Originally Posted by Stephen63 View Post

I can't believe you just fixed your mouth to say that.


Ariel answers:
Hmmmm????

Do YOU want to clarify these words?



Ariel,

You're asking Stephen63 to clarify words which I HAVE SAID.
Strange things happen on this thread...

HOW ABOUT ASKING ME WHAT I MEANT???

Seems like the smart thing to do.


You were answering about this statement I made:



Originally Posted by FranC View Post
Agreed.

Ive said many times that if we're going to attribute EVERYTHING to God, then we must also blame Him when we sin.

I'll be most happy to explain it if you wish.
I could explain it much better than Stephen63 can...
Although I'm pretty sure he knows what I meant even though you don't.

I did ask you. You didn't answer. Figured you weren't online (or too busy "talking" with the guys) and since he seemed to want to be a part of the conversation and you just stated he got you. Thought he could explain it.

Guess rebuking me outweighs actually clarifying your statement?

See post 15712

Still unanswered.

 

[dcontroversal]

So are you saying that Jesus did not pay for all mans sins.

Not talking univerlism here.

So what do you think Jesus accomplished on the cross?

He is one of the four mentioned above.....the bible is clear and so are the words...the sins of the whole world....
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world


AND the HOLY spirit convicts of SIN because they BELIEVE NOT ON ME

THE last verse above proves that sin is not the issue....the issue is belief into JESUS....the sin debt of humanity has been settled and the cure is APPLIED BY FAITH unto all who genuinely believe.....!

 

[PeterJens]

I personally think he did.

John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

When Jesus said it is finished what was finished?
The temple curtain was torn it two.

The only sin that can't be forgiven is what?

The sin if unbelief in Jesus.

John 16:8-9
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

All sins were bought at a price, paid for except one.

Hi Bill,

I know it sounds appealing but it makes no sense and nothing in scripture lines up
with this.

Sin is not some issue that can just be resolved and removed. Sin is the result of our
lack of relationship with God while still having the knowledge of good and evil.

It is like have too powerful a tool in ones hands and no knowledge how to use it.
The problem is not a debt which needs removing, it is something within us that has
to change and our belief about our acceptability to God.

The cross resolves the acceptability to God, but this only applies to believers, because
only when we commune with God because we are redeemed is the purpose of the cross
fulfilled. For unbelievers nothing has changed, and even if they were brought close to
God they would still say "get lost".

I do get the idea that being religious and trying to earn acceptability, being a good person
seems the only solution to those brought up in the church. But that has never been the
gospel, it has always been about our failure without fellowship with the King.

So why would God resolve something for those who hate Him and want nothing to do with
Him?

 

[FranC]

No, many are called few are closed, God drew Judah's to himself, yet he as Jesus said was the devil. God is only obligated to draw people he knows will respond, if he knows that no matter what you will never respond, he has no obligation to draw. Romans 1 says all know, so no excuse anyway, it also says the HS convicts the world, if the respond, God will draw them close, if they do nit t respond to conviction, why bother drawing?

Somebody help me!
Get me another aspirin.

What did you just say?

God only saves those whom He knows want to be saved?
Something like that.

Are you sure you're not a Calvinist?

 

[JoDel]

Yes they are titles, but do you know how many people even on this thread profess Jesus Christ and Lord and Savior then tell people....yeah, well I am just an ole woe and poe sinner saved by grace...

NO maam! you are a sin-forgiven saint, who will still sin, but has the resurrection power of the Spirit of him, who raised Jesus quickening them to become victorious over SIN.

We do not let people call us dirty names, so why should we let Satan allow us to call others and ourselves sinners, if we profess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior!?!?

I believe the TITLES used were "believers and unbelievers". And Satan can call me anything he wants, even he knows that I AM A CHILD OF THE MOST HIGH GOD, SAVED BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS BY HIS GRACE AND MERCY... so... what do I care what satan says... have you yourself not said satan is a liar also? By definition of that statement alone, NOTHING that satan says about me is true...they are lies. So... no worries here.

 

[willybob]

"Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.”"2 Corinthians 6:14-18 ESV
[HR][/HR]"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"
2 Corinthians 6:14 KJV
[HR][/HR]"If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?"
1 Corinthians 14:23 KJV
[HR][/HR]"But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers."
1 Corinthians 6:6 KJV
[HR][/HR]"The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers."
Luke 12:46 KJV
[HR][/HR]"So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?"
1 Corinthians 14:23 NIV
[HR][/HR]"Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers."
1 Corinthians 14:22 NIV
[HR][/HR]"But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers!"
1 Corinthians 6:6 NIV
[HR][/HR]"Pray that I may be kept safe from the unbelievers in Judea and that the contribution I take to Jerusalem may be favorably received by the Lord’s people there,"
Romans 15:31 NIV
[HR][/HR]"The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers."
Luke 12:46 NIV

Paul said unbelievers are those that disobeyed God's commands and they died in the wilderness because of unbelief, 1 Cor. 10.
Then he tells he speaks these things for our own admonition that we do no fall into disobedience/unbelief, and if we THINK we stand take heed to his warning lest he fall from the faith...., is that what you mean by unbelief?

 

[BillG]

welll obviously he didnt take it away completely coz now we have more sinners than ever befor...

To me the number of sinners is irrelevant.

There are more sinners today because there are more people on this earth that the time Jesus walked the earth and the numbers have increased ever since.

Given medical advances in sustaining and extending human life (which I think is God given) then it stands to reason more people equals more sinners, it can also mean more believers.

There is one constant though and that is sin, therefore more sinnsers.

Sin is constant but so is God.

All sins forgiven those who place their faith in Jesus cause it was laid upon him on the cross.

 

[Ariel82]

Page 523 and 524...but yeah anyway if you don't want to answer that is your free will choice, I will just talk to other folks.

 

[dcontroversal]

Jesus rettet die Sünder, von denen ich Chef bin

 

[FranC]

Okay...explain what you mean by the bold statement?



It's been said over and over again that attributing good gifts as from God is biblical and does not mean that we attribrute sin to God. It means we give Him praise and glory because He is the one empowering is to do good works. He gives us faith.

It has been stated that eternal security does not mean people don't have free will to choose good or evil. It means that when folks choose evil, God does not abandon His children or toss them out with the trash. he chastens them and leads them back into a right relationship with Him.

However people can label this "greasy grace" or "cheap grace", if they like but it would be a false label.

I call it security in having faith/trust in God's ability to fully save all His Kids.

Here's the original post.
Sorry Ariel --- I seem to miss posts; this goes too fast for me.

What I'm talking about has nothing to do with free gifts from God.
I'm referring to a Calvinistic idea.

The one that says that God does EVERYTHING. He decides who will be saved and lost.
Not based on anything the person did or didn't do, believed or didn't believe, but based solely on an arbitrary decision made by HIM.

There are those on this thread that believe this. I couldn't disagree more.

So, my point is:

IF we're going to say that §God CONTROLS everything we do and we have no FREE WILL (which is what Calvinists believe)
THEN we must admit that when we sin, it is GOD who is MAKING US SIN.

See. I'm not saying that God makes us sin. Satan and our flesh listening to the sin nature makes us sin.

I'm saying IF --- we're saying something this is unbiblical --- THEN --- we must ALSO affirm this.


THIS IS WHY CALVINISM IS WRONG.
It attributes SIN TO GOD.
It changes the HOLY NATURE of God and turns Him into a monster.

I hope this explains.

 

[BillG]

Jesus rettet die Sünder, von denen ich Chef bin

You smoked a funny fag

 

[willybob]

Somebody help me!
Get me another aspirin.

What did you just say?

God only saves those whom He knows want to be saved?
Something like that.

Are you sure you're not a Calvinist?

I think they make it up as they go along Fran,,,,,, Parts of Calvin's TULIP are infested in most denominations....The T is the big one that most cant place on the trash pile of history...God saves those that humble themselves and commit themselves whole heatedly to His covenant.

Judas wanted to repent and be saved, but he could no longer find repentance...

 

[BillG]

Jesus rettet die Sünder, von denen ich Chef bin

Or is It tongues?