Not By Works

[FranC]

1 Peter 1.18-19

Yes. And more.

But some here need to start posting scripture.

By His stripes, We are healed.
It Is Finished.

1 Peter 2:24
Romans 6.23

and more...

 

[Meggido]

I do not know how a saint quits believing but they remain a saint. Jesus is faithful even when we are not. He never leaves nor forsakes us.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Did God leave or forsake the first generation that died in the wilderness? NO, but they still died without belief, after they said they believed...

 

[UnderGrace]

Again you do not know what free will means in its original intention and development, it was Greek philosophers that developed this system of thought and belief, it is entire school of thought within this certain group and continues to be advanced by some philosophers. That people banter the term about in theology means they have not considered what free will means as it was originally developed and argued by some Greeks in antiquity.

Free will is not just a term it is a construct that has to do with pagan gods, it is a philosophical construct not a biblical one.

To try to link it to "choice" that is biblical concept, tells me you do not have the background knowledge to make these assertions that choice is one and the same as free will.

I suggest you do your research about its origin and what it means within the philosophy of Socrates and Plato and other ancient Greek philosophers since you seemed to have missed that course in school.

Free will is not a biblical concept?

Are you serious?

Did God give Adam the freedom to choose whether or not to eat the forbidden frui?

Did God stop Abraham from having a baby with Haggar? Or did Abraham choose to do this?

Did God force Isaac to bless Esau? Instead of Jacob?

Did God keep Joseph from going to Egypt which caused the Israeilites to become slaves?

Was it not Moses' free will that caused him to hit the rock twice?

What does Deuteronomy 30:15, 19 mean?

Did man have a choice to obey God and receive blessings in he covenants OR disobey God and receive curses?

What does Joshua 24: 15a mean?

Ezekiel 36:26 Why did God have to give anybody a new heart? He could have given them the right one the first time.
Or is He not able?

Psalm 119:30
John 3:16
Ephesians 5:6 If we could be deceived, it means we have a choice NOT TO.
Acts 2:21


Need more?

 

[UnderGrace]

Really, are you so naive to believe that all who post on CC have a sound understanding of the Gospel?

Why do you keep avoiding answering, what is the gospel?

I would have not hesitate if I was asked. If you think that is a dumb question then you have no idea how many false gospels circulate the globe.

What is with all this insecurity around superficial things like looks and intelligence?

Eternal life ...Jesus laid it out very clearly when he spoke to Nicodemus.

Exactly what saves a person?
The gospel is eternal life...but do you really understand how one receives this gift?

You always focus on our part only as works how are we saved really?



The gospel is eternal life?
Could you post some scripture please?

You want to know how one is saved?

Did I say in a previous post that smart people don't answer dumb questions.

You're on a Christian site.
That's a pretty dumb question.

 

[FranC]

Again you do not know what free will means in its original intention and development, it was Greek philosophers that developed this system of thought and belief, it is entire school of thought within this certain group and continues to be advanced by some philosophers. That people banter the term about in theology means they have not considered what free will means as it was originally developed and argued by some Greeks in antiquity.

Free will is not just a term it is a construct that has to do with pagan gods, it is a philosophical construct not a biblical one.

To try to link it to "choice" that is biblical concept, tells me you do not have the background knowledge to make these assertions that choice is one and the same as free will.

I suggest you do your research about its origin and what it means within the philosophy of Socrates and Plato and other ancient Greek philosophers since you seemed to have missed that course in school.

UG

I used to discuss this with a philosopher on a different forum.
To tell you the truth, I'm not too interested in what it means outside of Christianity.

I know what you're talking about.
Real Free Will means that you have nothing else affecting your choice.
This person used to tell me we don't have real Free Will because our knowledge of God affects our choice.

But, I'm not here to discuss Philosophy, of which I know practically NOTHING.
I do know a lot about biblical free will and choice.

So, is it OK with you that we use the term Free Will here?
Every book on theology I've read uses this term.

God gave us Free Will.

IOW, He gave us the option to be able to make a free will choice.
He did not program us to do everything HE wants us to do, as Calvinists believe.

(you're right about where it comes from, of course)

 

[PeterJens]

ssssiiiggghhh*** IF losing one's salvation WERE possible, (short of rejecting Jesus Christ) ... then, WHY THE FINISHED WORK OF THE CROSS? Is that too simple of a question to comprehend? Why would God allow the horror and cruelty of the cross for something which could be lost, making Jesus' sacrifice completely useless... knowing man's hearts were "inherently sinful" and they could NOT, ON THEIR OWN, be saved...NO MATTER WHAT?! ~ That is NOT giving man the "go ahead, stupid, keep sinning," freedom to discount the cross. On the contrary... BECAUSE of the finished work of the cross... the BELIEVER wants desperately to be sinless, but WE ARE HUMAN with HUMAN FLAWS, which, Thank God for the blood of Jesus perpetually washing over us UNTIL, "We are made just like Him".

The above assumes a lot of things, which cannot just be assumed.
Christ died to open a door of restoration with Him, which by its nature is
based on free will, which is the essence of love.

The Lord is our servant, He meets our needs, His desire is to help and empower
us to do the things that need doing. And we also freely choose to be like Him.
We cannot be like Him unless this is a free choice. So salvation as to be open,
to be received or walked away from. If you do not understand this is implicit in
God himself, you have not understood who He is.

Believers believe many different things, and being righteous is not one of the
ones I see expressed as their desperate desire. If anything their desire is to
mock and pour scorn on those who do desire righteousness and love, and claim
spiritual experience and authority trumps love and righteousness.

So it appears you are wrong on both propositions from my perspective.

 

[UnderGrace]

Yes I would agree in that kind of free will. I am not a Calvanist.
Thanks for clarifying.

UG

I used to discuss this with a philosopher on a different forum.
To tell you the truth, I'm not too interested in what it means outside of Christianity.

I know what you're talking about.
Real Free Will means that you have nothing else affecting your choice.
This person used to tell me we don't have real Free Will because our knowledge of God affects our choice.

But, I'm not here to discuss Philosophy, of which I know practically NOTHING.
I do know a lot about biblical free will and choice.

So, is it OK with you that we use the term Free Will here?
Every book on theology I've read uses this term.

God gave us Free Will.

IOW, He gave us the option to be able to make a free will choice.
He did not program us to do everything HE wants us to do, as Calvinists believe.

(you're right about where it comes from, of course)

 

[stonesoffire]

Joh 6:44　 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him to life on the last day.
　
Joh 6:45　 It is written in the Prophets, 'And all of them will be taught by God.' Everyone who has listened to the Father and has learned anything comes to me.
　
Joh 6:46　 Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who comes from God. This one has seen the Father.　


Joh 6:47　 Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, the one who believes in me has eternal life.
　
Joh 6:48　 I am the bread of life.　

Does the first verse strike out free choice? I have a headache and is hard to think deeper.

 

[FranC]

Really, are you so naive to believe that all who post on CC have a sound understanding of the Gospel?

Why do you keep avoiding answering, what is the gospel?

I would have not hesitate if I was asked. If you think that is a dumb question then you have no idea how many false gospels circulate the globe.

What is with all this insecurity around superficial things like looks and intelligence?

Eternal life ...Jesus laid it out very clearly when he spoke to Nicodemus.



I admit I might be a bit naiive.
There's only one way to be saved. There are other ways? Like what for instance???

It does kind of seem like a silly question.
I spent years explaining what it means.

You become saved by believing in Jesus who was sent by Father God specifically to teach us how.
I used to tell the story of the birds that were trapped inside the barn and kept hitting up agains the glass window and fell to their deaths.

Or the story of the army of ants who would fall off the Cliff every day into a raging fire and how Jesus became an ant to teach them how to avoid this.

By believing in Jesus we have a better life NOW and we are able to enter into heaven. He opened up the gates of heaven for us. They were closed before. These two ideas are the good news. And, of course, you eventually have to say WHAT we have to believe. That God sent Jesus to us, that He died, that He was resurrected.

There are some verses that I particularly like regarding this:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 explains the above.
John 3:16 Invites everyone
Acts 4:12 Tells us Who saves us
Acts 2:21
Ephesians 2:8
Galatians 2:16

v vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, John 3, He told him about how to become a member of the Kingdom of God.
Not so much about salvation.

In fact, if you do a study on this, you'll find that salvation is not really mentioned in the N.T. the way that we understand it today.

Jesus came to teach us how to become members of His family and join in His Kingdom.
Of course these people ARE saved. But Jesus didn't really have this in mind.
Salvation as ONLY BELIEF IN HIM, was not His goal.

Check it out. (I'm not saying salvation's message is wrong - it's just different today)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Where?

§Scripture PLEASE.

John 19:30
So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” Andbowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

in the Greek, Tetelestai, was a legal term, those who had paid their debt in full, carried a card with them affixed to the card was the crime, and stamped on it was the word tetelestai, it means the debt to society was "paid in full" and they could never be tried for the same crime again,

 

[stonesoffire]

Even with my headache I can remember that Jesus said..ye must be born again.

Born of water and Spirit to enter in. One sees, then enters.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG
You're ALWAYS telling people they're going to you know where.
I think you've cut back a bit.

It's really true about how we see the other's faults but not our own.

Me included...

The topic was who who was judging people for sins, not who was preaching a false gospel.

although your right, we all make mistakes

 

[willybob]

Any saint who quits believing is UNBELIEVING.

yes indeed Stephan, for Demas was a fellow laborer in the field with Paul, dispensing the gospel, yet he chose to go back to the world...he departed from the faith of his own freewill..

 

[dcontroversal]

John 19:30
So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” Andbowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

in the Greek, Tetelestai, was a legal term, those who had paid their debt in full, carried a card with them affixed to the card was the crime, and stamped on it was the word tetelestai, it means the debt to society was "paid in full" and they could never be tried for the same crime again,

Amen....so far at least 4 of the workers for in this thread have denied the fact or refused to answer honestly about Jesus paying our sin debt.......the following verses are clear.....

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world


AND the HOLY spirit convicts of SIN because they BELIEVE NOT ON ME

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Darkness demands ownership...Light restores relationship....

Your mind, will, emotions, intellect, passions are your own....God does not take that away from you.....he lets you chose who will run the show...your spirit or your mind...and whichever is boss is what the flesh/body will follow...

Amen, the mere fact God wants to have a living relationship with his creation demands free will, you can not have a loving relationship with a robot, it will never appreciate your love, and can not return you love,

 

[FranC]

Joh 6:44　 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him to life on the last day.
　
Joh 6:45　 It is written in the Prophets, 'And all of them will be taught by God.' Everyone who has listened to the Father and has learned anything comes to me.
　
Joh 6:46　 Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who comes from God. This one has seen the Father.　


Joh 6:47　 Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, the one who believes in me has eternal life.
　
Joh 6:48　 I am the bread of life.　

Does the first verse strike out free choice? I have a headache and is hard to think deeper.

Don't get a headache.
Instead Read Romans 1:19-20

Who does God draw to Himself?

Does the last verse prove the Real Presence?
I need an aspirin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Did God leave or forsake the first generation that died in the wilderness? NO, but they still died without belief, after they said they believed...

They never believd, they wanted freed from Egypt, yet complained continually about gods provision, then demanded to be let back in.

only a few believed, and except for Moses, who did not enter due to sin, all entered.

 

[JIMBO43]

I personally think he did.

John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

When Jesus said it is finished what was finished?
The temple curtain was torn it two.

The only sin that can't be forgiven is what?

The sin if unbelief in Jesus.

John 16:8-9
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

All sins were bought at a price, paid for except one.

not one part part of your your scripture says jesus paid for all mans sins

 

[FranC]

Amen, the mere fact God wants to have a living relationship with his creation demands free will, you can not have a loving relationship with a robot, it will never appreciate your love, and can not return you love,

oooooh.
We agree!

Now explain to me HOW that once we are saved, we CANNOT leave God???

Doesn't this take away my free will?
Can't I leave Him if I WANT to?

 

[slave]

Really, are you so naive to believe that all who post on CC have a sound understanding of the Gospel?

Why do you keep avoiding answering, what is the gospel?

I would have not hesitate if I was asked. If you think that is a dumb question then you have no idea how many false gospels circulate the globe.

What is with all this insecurity around superficial things like looks and intelligence?

Eternal life ...Jesus laid it out very clearly when he spoke to Nicodemus.





I admit I might be a bit naiive.
There's only one way to be saved. There are other ways? Like what for instance???

It does kind of seem like a silly question.
I spent years explaining what it means.

You become saved by believing in Jesus who was sent by Father God specifically to teach us how.
I used to tell the story of the birds that were trapped inside the barn and kept hitting up agains the glass window and fell to their deaths.

Or the story of the army of ants who would fall off the Cliff every day into a raging fire and how Jesus became an ant to teach them how to avoid this.

By believing in Jesus we have a better life NOW and we are able to enter into heaven. He opened up the gates of heaven for us. They were closed before. These two ideas are the good news. And, of course, you eventually have to say WHAT we have to believe. That God sent Jesus to us, that He died, that He was resurrected.

There are some verses that I particularly like regarding this:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 explains the above.
John 3:16 Invites everyone
Acts 4:12 Tells us Who saves us
Acts 2:21
Ephesians 2:8
Galatians 2:16

v vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, John 3, He told him about how to become a member of the Kingdom of God.
Not so much about salvation.

In fact, if you do a study on this, you'll find that salvation is not really mentioned in the N.T. the way that we understand it today.

Jesus came to teach us how to become members of His family and join in His Kingdom.
Of course these people ARE saved. But Jesus didn't really have this in mind.
Salvation as ONLY BELIEF IN HIM, was not His goal.

Check it out. (I'm not saying salvation's message is wrong - it's just different today)

Its the same today, for Scripture doesn't change - nothing added and nothing taken away - but suffice it to say, today's movement in many places is to say, "I need only believe, and He magically takes care of my maturity and sins, I need to make passive my mind and body and just rest in the suaveness Jesus has given me." So, I get what you are saying and I agree, except many today who are true Christians still do understand it correctly, is all.