Not By Works

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Feb 24, 2015
Debt theology

Imagine all you sin, past, present and future created this debt or bill.
It is the debt that sends you to hell, not the sin.

Now God made the debt so fantastic it includes all the sin you will
do but have not yet done.

And when Christ died he got rid of all the debt.
Nothing else changed, just debt gone, so the door is open to

All you have to do is believe and you are there.
Except you sin daily, hourly, are plagued by guilt and condemnation
and every action could be sin or good depending on who is inspiring it.

So the deeper you go the more evil and condemned you feel.
Does this sound like the freedom Paul walked in and shared in his letters.
Or Peter, or John, or James, or Titus.

No I get the picture of praise and worship, of victory and being overcomers
in love and meeting needs, seeing opportunities with others.

So I think the theological error has been creating a remote debt idea which
God cancels to gain acceptance in heaven. It leads to this sinful mixture with
righteousness and the impossible continues condemnation of believers.
From how people are describing it, it does begin to sound like satan tormenting
them because put simply, they are not walking in Jesus ways.

Even reading the sermon on the mount leads them into total feelings of failure
rather than rejoicing at the beauty of the teaching and its simplicity and truth.
Nov 22, 2015
more works-based legalism nonsense. don't some people ever get tired of lecturing on how " pure, clean and holy " ( hahaha) they are? guess not

if anyone wants to see BIBLICAL truth, please see Romans 4 and Titus 3, and pretty much the whole letter of Galatians .

pay no attention to the above post.

Amen....of course the whole gospel message is a debt that Christ has paid for and removed our sins from us as far as the east is from the west.

Righteousness only comes by faith in what Christ has done - not by what we do or don't do. Works-based salvationists reject the righteousness of God in Christ and thus their need to establish their own righteousness by what they do.

We are safe in Christ. No one can pluck us out of the hands of the Lord nor the Father. This "lose your salvation" is the worse demonically inspired doctrine ever put into the mind of man. It denies the very work of grace that Christ has done. It is anti-Christ at it's very core which is why grace alone by faith alone in Christ's work is attacked.


Senior Member
Mar 15, 2015
God chose who would be saved before the beginning of creation. There are those of us who may think we are saved, but when tested will fail, which would mean that we were not chosen or saved to start with. Thus the OSAS could be said to be true. It is just true for those God chose not for our own choice. 2 Peter 2:20-21 ([FONT=&quot]20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.)[/FONT]
Feb 24, 2015

If Christ did not meat our debt, we are lost in sin, and will spend eternity in hell.

This is what Christ did to our debt.
Colossians 2:14
having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
It is called redemption.. Maybe you should look that term up. TO redeem means to pay the debt another person owns, to free them.

hmm, John 6. Believe in me you will never die, Live forever, never hunger or thirst, Have eternal life etc etc.
I guess Gods word means nothing to you?

but remember, Peter does not teach a gospel of works, He said so (SMH)
What is our debt? To be found guilty of a crime. But Christ has forgiven us. So we are
no longer guilty. But the price for this forgiveness is transformation into a holy people
who do not sin anymore.

Christ had to solve the problem of sin in our hearts.
The problem is we hide the love we need, and protect our hearts from pain by closing
down our needs and being defensive and agressive towards everyone who comes near.

This is why the cross is the power of God for our salvation. It is the eternal statement,
God loves you, you can trust Him. You can open up and admit the need, melt your heart
through repentance because new life has come to your soul.

Now before Christ we only saw this need at a distance, and Gods love was hidden, in
the law, in the acts of saving Israel, in the blessing given for obedience, in the gifts of
grace in creation each day.

So to deny this conquering of sin, the release of love from the heart, the new life and joy
in Christ, is to deny everything.

Now I know EG does not understand this, nor most of the group to which he belongs.
But the fruit of a released changed heart is a life spent loving people in Christ.

Against such there is no law. Amen.

And the thing I know is once you have experienced Christ like this, theology matters
less than just being in praise and worship of the King, Halleluyah.

And I do understand the parched land in which many have lived for many many years.
It has taken me a long time to see what I am sharing above. And why does in matter?
Because today the Kingdom is here and now, in your room with Christ and He desires
to embrace you as a repentant Child of God, Amen.
Mar 14, 2011
1. The penalty of sin was, is and always will be death (not good works, Not being holy and pure, Not doing all these religious ceremonies)

a. When adam and Eve Sinned, An animal was killed to cover their sin

b. Abel killed an innocent, and offered it to God

c. Abraham shows, Sacrifice was still a means in which was a picture to show what God would do to COVER (redeem) the sin debt

d. The law showed, Sin can only be forgiven by the shedding of blood. The high priest one day a year entered the holy place. and offered the atonement sacrifice. For himself, and the people. Because of this, God would "pass over judgment on the people.

e. As Hebrews says, Jesus, offered himself once, now sits down at the right hand of god making intercession for those who are his.

what is the end of all this? If the debt is not paid in full (jesus said it was in the cross, when he literally said "paid in full" or as translated in many English bibles. it is finished" Then animal sacrifices must be re-instituted, Because if Jesus only paid for past sin, Blood must be shed for future sin, or the person who commits future sin will die in their sin and be left for eternity in hell..
Mar 14, 2011
What is our debt? To be found guilty of a crime. But Christ has forgiven us. So we are
no longer guilty. But the price for this forgiveness is transformation into a holy people
who do not sin anymore
so you now teach sinless perfection?

The price of forgiveness was the shed blood, and humiliation of the cross which Jesus endured. (he redeemed us with his blood -

Revelation 5:9

And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

How can you deny this peter? You are making a mockery of the cross!
Feb 24, 2015
Let us ask this question. Is the wages of sin death? What does this mean?

If God was not there to bring judgement would people still die from sin?
Yes. God is saying sin destroys, it makes that which is alive die. It is like going
to a computer with an axe, chopping it in half and expecting it to work.

Now the problem with sin, living separate from God in all our decisions and judgments,
was we would die. From the beginning God knew only through His death would there
be a chance at reconciliation. Because the death of an innocent animal actually changes
nothing, but the death of God, forgiving the sin that caused the death changes everything.

Now the law demonstrated Gods heart, and without Him, our failure to walk the road of love.
But through the sacrifice and demonstration of love, we have resolution and righteousness
through faith or communion with God.

As redeemed people of God, we are Gods holy temple, the Holy of Holies dwelling within us.

Now God could only dwell in a redeemed perfect, holy, pure vessel. So that is what God
has made us. It is our faith that counts us as righteous as we work out our true righteousness
and sin daily, carrying the cross and walking in His ways.

And in the love we walk we are counted no longer under condemnation but as redeemed and
victorious. Now all I can say is if you do not feel like this, spend time with God and bring the
issues to Him and you will find resolution in time.

Here on cc testimony after testimony spanning decades of peoples lives they have found the
fulfillment of this promise of the cross in their lives. Nothing is a forgone conclusion, but equally
nothing is lost if we hold faith in Christ.
Mar 14, 2011
Let us ask this question. Is the wages of sin death? What does this mean?


1. Adam and Eve, An innocent animal was slain to cover their sin
2. Cain killed abel because Abel killed an innocent animal and God acccepted his, and rejected Cains human good (works of his labor)
3. The animal sacrifices of the law. Which were given to redeem sin.

Maybe you need to study the OT types Peter.. You should be scared you do not get what death actually means.

Jesus told Adam on the day you sin you will die, Adam died that day, It took death to make him alive again, Jesus death!
Feb 24, 2015
The tension of sanctification

How can we both not have arrived at resolution and still be viewed as Gods holy people?
Because the putting off of the old self and the putting on of the new self is a progressive
process. Literally everyone recognises this who has any honesty in their own lives.

The issues are about learning communion with God, walk in love and removing obstacles
through obedience in our lives.

So our goal is to be like Christ, and our progress is slow and determined.
Some have argued we have a total inability to arrive.
Others that our walk until we stumble, is perfection in Gods terms.

However we view it, King David was righteous yet stumbled, and this dynamic
walk appears to be what fellowship and communion is, a living breathing sharing.

For the insecure this sounds too flimsy, so they put in ideas of absolute certainty,
and ignore any areas of choice or relationship.

But Paul is plain. Stick with God and His heart and you will be saved. Rebel and
you will perish and die. So let us guard our hearts and walk in love, Amen.
Mar 14, 2011
Justification is salvation, We are justified freely by Grace based on our faith in Christ.

Sanctification is the process of being made Christlike. It is an ongoing process which has its ups and down. And some may never grow past being a "babe" in Christ, But as Paul told the Corinthian church, Even babes in Christ are IN CHRIST.

be warned of those who try to impose sanctification as justification (how we are saved) for they are wolves in sheeps clothing, and will lead you astray..

Glorification is the moment when sanctification equals justification (our condition meets our position in christ, it is then when we will be completely sanctified, and no longer able to sin.

Glorification occurs at resurrection.

Be warned of those who try to make glorification (sinless perfection) while we are here on earth, they are wolves in sheep's clothing.
Feb 24, 2015
God is not constrained.

There are aspects of truth in all the different positions.
I am not a sacramentalist yet there is power in the ceremonies of the faith.

I do not believe in relics yet the Turin Shroud appears to be an imprint of Christs body.

God bans mediums yet Saul goes to a medium to talk to Samuel.

So God is unusual, and we should not bind his ways or limit how he works but bless
when he anoints and brings truth to mankind.

The Lord will bring about His will, and all things will come to pass that He has predicted.
So I say if the Lord is in it, Amen, God bless.

The enemy are always defeated before the Lords purposes.
But many seem to think this is not so, and they need to crush everything they deem
Feb 24, 2015

If what I am sharing is just legalism it will fail, because it has no life in it.
If what I am sharing is not of the Lord it will fail, because it has no Holy Spirit in it.

If what I am sharing is of the Lord according to His purposes none will be able to
restrain its fruit or its consequences.

So how big is the God you worship, and did He raise Christ from the dead, and you
live in the faith He will do this for His people?

I just say Amen, bring the blessing of God the Most High to His people today.

Mar 14, 2011
It failed, it has failed since Cain first tried to make God happy by giving him the fruit of his labor. and not what God demanded (shed blood)

And it will fail until this earth is destroyed and satans lies are but a faded memory,
Feb 24, 2015

The objective of a wolf is to feed off their prey and damage them for its own

Test all teaching. Thorns and thistles, a heart that is defended and tares others
down, is not of the Lord. That which exalts walking rightly is from God

If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.
1 John 2:29

Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
1 John 3:7

To Christ our Lord, through the Cross be glory for evermore.
Feb 24, 2015
Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
1 Tim 1:13

So, as the Holy Spirit says:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the wilderness,
where your ancestors tested and tried me,
though for forty years they saw what I did.
That is why I was angry with that generation;
I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.’
So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”
Heb 3:7-11

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9
Feb 24, 2015
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
1 Tim 4:1-5

I have always been struck by Paul and listening to ones conscience.
Love makes us into a live living human who is very sensitive to others.

An important part of this is a conscience and having a clear conscience.

Hypocracy has always been about behaviour matching the message, so
morality and what we do need to be linked together. Bit tough if
one admits aberrant sin is running wild in ones life.

The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
Matt 23:2-3

So do not listen to those who do not practise what they preach, if it is just
I sin, but so what, we all do, and God still forgives us. That is hypocracy.
Feb 24, 2015
Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Come near to God and he will come near to you.

Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Grieve, mourn and wail.

Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom.

Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.

James 4:7-10

Amen, Praise the Lord for His word
Nov 22, 2015
By all means come to Christ and believe the gospel message that your sins are forgiven because of His blood. Acts 10, Acts 13.

When sinners come to Christ - their hearts are cleansed and they become new creations in Christ. 2 Cor. 5:17 - and "all these things are of God".

Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

To humble and to submit ourselves before God means to agree with what He says has been done by His Son's perfect work on the cross.

Cease from your own works for self-righteousness and believe in what the Lord has done with His death and resurrection. His blood has obtained eternal redemption for us. Heb. 9:12-15

It's time to "Repent and believe the gospel" - just like Jesus said in Mark 1:14