Old to New Covenant a 50 day transition

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FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
909
306
63
#1
Some background:
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the "new testament", that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
(MY NOTE: Christ is the mediator of the new testament)

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
(MY NOTE: Last will & testament doesn't get implemented until death of the testator)

While alive everything Jesus teaches/preaches/lives is Old Covenant.

Onto the 50 day transition:
At 3pm (Mk 15:33) on Nisan 14/Passover Jesus proclaims; tetelestai/It is FINISHED & dies. Tetelestai is also an accounting term meaning Completed/Paid in Full. A sinless Christ's sacrificial sin atoning death had PAID sins required wage IN FULL.

Jesus rises on the 3rd day according to scripture (1 Cor 15:4, Lk 24:46). The risen Jesus shows Himself to the world for 40 days (Acts 1:3) then ascends to heaven (Acts 1:9-11)

When Pentecost/DAY 50, had fully come, Jesus sends His indwelling Holy Spirit (Acts 2:1-4) & the New Covenant begins, whereby the Old ends.

Heb 7:
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
(MY NOTE: Under the New Covenant Priestly Order of Melchisedec. The Levitical priesthood Mosaic Laws are changed)

Heb 8:
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
(MY NOTE: The risen Christ is mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises)

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Also see Heb 10:3-10)
(MY NOTE: Although, the Old to New Covenant transition only took 50 days. The complete fading/vanishing of the old isn't completely realized until the Temple's destruction aprox 40 yrs later)

BTW: At the Acts 2 Pentecost JEWS ONLY receive the spiritual baptism of Christ's indwelling Holy Spirit.

It's at Cornelius house years after the Acts 2 outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Where Gentiles are granted the spiritual baptism of Christ's indwelling Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
(MY NOTE: As Peter is speaking the Holy Spirit indwells the gentile listeners.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(MY NOTE: The believing Jews that came with Peter (the speaker yrs ago at the Pentecost H/S outpouring) are ASTONISHED that God has granted gentiles eternal life)

Peter shares/revisits his Acts 10 experience
Acts 11:
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
(NOTE: Upon returning to Jerusalem Peter explains to the circumcision/Jews that contended with him (Acts 11:2). The Acts 10 gentile receiving of Christ's baptism with His Holy Ghost)

Eph 2:
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
(MY NOTE: Pre Cornelius house, gentiles were seen as bastard's, living outside of covenant seals, having no hope, living completely without God in the world)

Acts 10:28 Peter said unto them, Ye know how that it is an """unlawful""" thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean
(MY NOTE: Peter tells Cornelius its UNLAWFUL for a Jew to keep company with a gentile)

Matt 15:26 Jesus said; It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
(MY NOTE: Jews to include the Lord often referred to Gentiles as godless unclean DOGS. Also see Matt 7:6)

While Mosaic lews were still in effect, Gentiles were considered so ungodly/unclean, being in their presence could make a Jew ceremonially unclean (Jn 18:28)
 
Jun 11, 2020
1,371
421
83
69
#2
Some background:
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the "new testament", that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
(MY NOTE: Christ is the mediator of the new testament)

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
(MY NOTE: Last will & testament doesn't get implemented until death of the testator)

While alive everything Jesus teaches/preaches/lives is Old Covenant.

Onto the 50 day transition:
At 3pm (Mk 15:33) on Nisan 14/Passover Jesus proclaims; tetelestai/It is FINISHED & dies. Tetelestai is also an accounting term meaning Completed/Paid in Full. A sinless Christ's sacrificial sin atoning death had PAID sins required wage IN FULL.

Jesus rises on the 3rd day according to scripture (1 Cor 15:4, Lk 24:46). The risen Jesus shows Himself to the world for 40 days (Acts 1:3) then ascends to heaven (Acts 1:9-11)

When Pentecost/DAY 50, had fully come, Jesus sends His indwelling Holy Spirit (Acts 2:1-4) & the New Covenant begins, whereby the Old ends.

Heb 7:
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
(MY NOTE: Under the New Covenant Priestly Order of Melchisedec. The Levitical priesthood Mosaic Laws are changed)

Heb 8:
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
(MY NOTE: The risen Christ is mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises)

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Also see Heb 10:3-10)
(MY NOTE: Although, the Old to New Covenant transition only took 50 days. The complete fading/vanishing of the old isn't completely realized until the Temple's destruction aprox 40 yrs later)

BTW: At the Acts 2 Pentecost JEWS ONLY receive the spiritual baptism of Christ's indwelling Holy Spirit.

It's at Cornelius house years after the Acts 2 outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Where Gentiles are granted the spiritual baptism of Christ's indwelling Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
(MY NOTE: As Peter is speaking the Holy Spirit indwells the gentile listeners.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(MY NOTE: The believing Jews that came with Peter (the speaker yrs ago at the Pentecost H/S outpouring) are ASTONISHED that God has granted gentiles eternal life)

Peter shares/revisits his Acts 10 experience
Acts 11:
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
(NOTE: Upon returning to Jerusalem Peter explains to the circumcision/Jews that contended with him (Acts 11:2). The Acts 10 gentile receiving of Christ's baptism with His Holy Ghost)

Eph 2:
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
(MY NOTE: Pre Cornelius house, gentiles were seen as bastard's, living outside of covenant seals, having no hope, living completely without God in the world)

Acts 10:28 Peter said unto them, Ye know how that it is an """unlawful""" thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean
(MY NOTE: Peter tells Cornelius its UNLAWFUL for a Jew to keep company with a gentile)

Matt 15:26 Jesus said; It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
(MY NOTE: Jews to include the Lord often referred to Gentiles as godless unclean DOGS. Also see Matt 7:6)

While Mosaic lews were still in effect, Gentiles were considered so ungodly/unclean, being in their presence could make a Jew ceremonially unclean (Jn 18:28)
You have addressed a big subject, and one which has caused quite some confusion. The confusion came because for over a thousand years the Roman Catholic Church (i) locked the Bible away and (ii) forbade the common man (the laity) to study it. The Roman Catholic Church, more commonly known as the "Holy Roman Empire", because it's goal is to rule the earth, that is, "Kingdom Now", must teach two things.
  1. God is finished with Israel
  2. And this point above necessitates that all the promises to Israel become the Church's
When the Reformation took place (caused by common men getting their hands on the Bible), the main battle was (i) salvation yb works verses salvation by faith, and (ii) the Headship of Rome or not. Other deep truths were neglected in the heat of battle. The mani deep truth, which had to wait another 200 years for, was; "If Rome is not the ruler of earth, then Who is, when will He come, and where will He dwell?" The end of the study of this matter is the following;
  • Our Lord Jesus is appointed HEIR and King of the earth
  • Our Lord Jesus, at a time decided upon by the Father, will descend to earth and replace Gentile government
  • Our Lord Jesus will establish His Kingdom on earth via the worthy of the Church
But this belief, if held, causes a chain of other questions. They are;
  1. What of Jesus' Jewishness, and what of His KINGSHIP over Israel?
  2. Where will Jesus, a Jew and their King, live?
  3. And if so, what is Israel's future?
And it was suddenly important to all serious expositors that not only was the Church a fully NEW and fully INDEPENDENT entity on earth, but that it had no been mentioned or predicted in the Old Testament (Eph.3:5, 9, etc.). And THIS caused a BIG PROBLEM for many expositors who had built their life's work on Roman Catholic "Kingdom Now" theology. The resistance to the doctrine that Israel will be fully recovered and made recipient of all the blessings that the Old Testament prophets have promised WAS MASSIVE. And it came from the highest level of Biblical studies.

So, I propose that the the New Covenant is made EXCLUSIVELY with Israel as Jeremiah 31:31 says. I also propose that this Covenant was RATIFIED by Christ's blood before God, but tat it must wait for Israel to
  • be resurrected
  • be forgiven their sins
  • be gathered to their Land
  • be given new spirits and new hearts
The most difficult thing in this claim is the thought that the New Covenant started on Golgotha because of our Lord's words at the so-called "Last Supper". In all three synoptic gospels it SEEMS, from a SUPERFICIAL reading, that the New Covenant was INSTITUTED on Golgotha. But let us examine the grammar of Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24 and Luke 22:20.

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.


You will immediately notice that our Lord's blood is ONLY (i) the blood OF the New Covenant, or, (ii) the New Testament is IN His blood. NOTHING is said about it being IMPLEMENTED. And if we study the blood of Covenants made with God from Hebrews 9:18-22 we learn that the blood was for MULTIPLE THINGS. And the first was that it, "DEDICATED the First Covenant" (v.18). It also was for "remission of sins", it was for the "Book" of Law, it was for the people, AND it was for the Tabernacle's dedication.

The BLOOD did not GIVE the Covenant. It RATIFIED it. Covenant with God must ratified in sacrificial blood. So when is it IMPLEMENTED? Both Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 tell us - WHEN ISRAEL IS UNITED AGAIN. Hebrews 8:8 and 10 say the Covenant will be made "in the DAYS" when Israel - the ten northern Tribes, and Judah - the two southern Tribes, ARE NEIGHBORS. This harmonizes with Jeremiah 32:37-40. It is only AFTER God has gathered them out of all the nations that He scattered them into, that he will make this New Covenant.

I propose that the New Covenant will be made EXCLUSIVELY with Israel, when they are forgiven, resurrected and retunred to their Land as Ezekiel 37 promises. I also propose that according to Jeremiah 31:33 that it will be a Covenant of Law - soething that the church has nothing to do with.

Let's discuss.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
6,673
1,221
113
#3
You have addressed a big subject, and one which has caused quite some confusion. The confusion came because for over a thousand years the Roman Catholic Church (i) locked the Bible away and (ii) forbade the common man (the laity) to study it. The Roman Catholic Church, more commonly known as the "Holy Roman Empire", because it's goal is to rule the earth, that is, "Kingdom Now", must teach two things.
  1. God is finished with Israel
  2. And this point above necessitates that all the promises to Israel become the Church's
When the Reformation took place (caused by common men getting their hands on the Bible), the main battle was (i) salvation yb works verses salvation by faith, and (ii) the Headship of Rome or not. Other deep truths were neglected in the heat of battle. The mani deep truth, which had to wait another 200 years for, was; "If Rome is not the ruler of earth, then Who is, when will He come, and where will He dwell?" The end of the study of this matter is the following;
  • Our Lord Jesus is appointed HEIR and King of the earth
  • Our Lord Jesus, at a time decided upon by the Father, will descend to earth and replace Gentile government
  • Our Lord Jesus will establish His Kingdom on earth via the worthy of the Church
But this belief, if held, causes a chain of other questions. They are;
  1. What of Jesus' Jewishness, and what of His KINGSHIP over Israel?
  2. Where will Jesus, a Jew and their King, live?
  3. And if so, what is Israel's future?
And it was suddenly important to all serious expositors that not only was the Church a fully NEW and fully INDEPENDENT entity on earth, but that it had no been mentioned or predicted in the Old Testament (Eph.3:5, 9, etc.). And THIS caused a BIG PROBLEM for many expositors who had built their life's work on Roman Catholic "Kingdom Now" theology. The resistance to the doctrine that Israel will be fully recovered and made recipient of all the blessings that the Old Testament prophets have promised WAS MASSIVE. And it came from the highest level of Biblical studies.

So, I propose that the the New Covenant is made EXCLUSIVELY with Israel as Jeremiah 31:31 says. I also propose that this Covenant was RATIFIED by Christ's blood before God, but tat it must wait for Israel to
  • be resurrected
  • be forgiven their sins
  • be gathered to their Land
  • be given new spirits and new hearts
The most difficult thing in this claim is the thought that the New Covenant started on Golgotha because of our Lord's words at the so-called "Last Supper". In all three synoptic gospels it SEEMS, from a SUPERFICIAL reading, that the New Covenant was INSTITUTED on Golgotha. But let us examine the grammar of Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24 and Luke 22:20.

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.


You will immediately notice that our Lord's blood is ONLY (i) the blood OF the New Covenant, or, (ii) the New Testament is IN His blood. NOTHING is said about it being IMPLEMENTED. And if we study the blood of Covenants made with God from Hebrews 9:18-22 we learn that the blood was for MULTIPLE THINGS. And the first was that it, "DEDICATED the First Covenant" (v.18). It also was for "remission of sins", it was for the "Book" of Law, it was for the people, AND it was for the Tabernacle's dedication.

The BLOOD did not GIVE the Covenant. It RATIFIED it. Covenant with God must ratified in sacrificial blood. So when is it IMPLEMENTED? Both Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 tell us - WHEN ISRAEL IS UNITED AGAIN. Hebrews 8:8 and 10 say the Covenant will be made "in the DAYS" when Israel - the ten northern Tribes, and Judah - the two southern Tribes, ARE NEIGHBORS. This harmonizes with Jeremiah 32:37-40. It is only AFTER God has gathered them out of all the nations that He scattered them into, that he will make this New Covenant.

I propose that the New Covenant will be made EXCLUSIVELY with Israel, when they are forgiven, resurrected and retunred to their Land as Ezekiel 37 promises. I also propose that according to Jeremiah 31:33 that it will be a Covenant of Law - soething that the church has nothing to do with.

Let's discuss.
Good point, Exodus 24 was the passage that taught me exactly when the Old Covenant of Law was implemented with Israel

Exodus 24
And he said unto Moses, Come up unto the Lord, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship ye afar off.

2 And Moses alone shall come near the Lord: but they shall not come nigh; neither shall the people go up with him.

3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the Lord hath said will we do.

4 And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the Lord.

6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.

7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.

8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.

So for the New Covenant to be likewise implemented with the House of Israel and the House of Judah (Hebrews 8:8), it is not sufficient for Jesus to die on the cross for their sins (Matthew 1:21), the entire nation would also similarly needed to repent and believe in Jesus as their Messiah.

But we know that the current nation of Israel has fallen and is an enemy to God and the gospel (Romans 11), so this New Covenant could not have been implemented yet.

We in the Body of Christ gain the spiritual blessings of this new covenant because of the mystery of Christ revealed to Paul (Romans 16:25-26), but we do not replace the nation Israel, nor do we become the new "spiritual Israel" that God implemented the new covenant with.

It will be implemented with Israel after Jesus 2nd coming for them.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
4,392
1,346
113
#4
But we know that the current nation of Israel has fallen and is an enemy to God and the gospel (Romans 11),
When you say the Jews are an enemy of God there are many facts of the Jews that say that is wrong to say. We share many things with them, even though they deny that Christ was the Messiah.

We share scripture with them, all but the smaller last pages of scripture, and much of those last pages are repeats of the scripture we share. We share the belief in life after death, and that to have that life requires the forgiveness of sin. We say that requires Jesus, they say it requires only God the Father. They say we worship three Gods and God is one so they ask for forgiveness through repentance, promising never to commit that sin again. We are told to repent, but some Christians even believe it is not a requirement for forgiveness. Scripture says it was God who blinded their eyes, and also tells us God will never forsake them. Do you think these facts add up to that they are "enemies"?

They believe in a Messiah, but to this day they have a false idea of what that Messiah is and His work for us, and a false idea of who that Messiah is. Paul does no tell us if the Lord answers their wish to have their sins forgiven, if that can be done through the Father without the Son. They need to accept Christ as Savior, but they are not enemies of God.

Either of us could be wrong in our perceptions, but we agree to Christ and that is what is important.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
6,673
1,221
113
#5
When you say the Jews are an enemy of God there are many facts of the Jews that say that is wrong to say. We share many things with them, even though they deny that Christ was the Messiah.

We share scripture with them, all but the smaller last pages of scripture, and much of those last pages are repeats of the scripture we share. We share the belief in life after death, and that to have that life requires the forgiveness of sin. We say that requires Jesus, they say it requires only God the Father. They say we worship three Gods and God is one so they ask for forgiveness through repentance, promising never to commit that sin again. We are told to repent, but some Christians even believe it is not a requirement for forgiveness. Scripture says it was God who blinded their eyes, and also tells us God will never forsake them. Do you think these facts add up to that they are "enemies"?

They believe in a Messiah, but to this day they have a false idea of what that Messiah is and His work for us, and a false idea of who that Messiah is. Paul does no tell us if the Lord answers their wish to have their sins forgiven, if that can be done through the Father without the Son. They need to accept Christ as Savior, but they are not enemies of God.

Either of us could be wrong in our perceptions, but we agree to Christ and that is what is important.
I am saying the nation of Israel is an enemy to God, not individual Jews. (Romans 11:28)

Individual Jews can always be saved thru the gospel given to Paul for the Body of Christ (1 Cor 15:1-4)
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
4,392
1,346
113
#6
I am saying the nation of Israel is an enemy to God, not individual Jews. (Romans 11:28)

Individual Jews can always be saved thru the gospel given to Paul for the Body of Christ (1 Cor 15:1-4)
I wasn't speaking of individuals, but of the way most of of sects of Judaism think. Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't think God sees Israel as His enemy. I think that because it is through God they are blinded to Christ as the Messiah, God will never forsake them, their scripture is our scripture in the most part, and they believe in eternal life through the forgiveness of sin through the grace of the Lord.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
16,620
9,063
113
#7
I wasn't speaking of individuals, but of the way most of of sects of Judaism think. Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't think God sees Israel as His enemy. I think that because it is through God they are blinded to Christ as the Messiah, God will never forsake them, their scripture is our scripture in the most part, and they believe in eternal life through the forgiveness of sin through the grace of the Lord.
Here's the problem: God has not offered forgiveness of sin to the Jews through "his grace", but rather only through Jesus Christ. There is no salvation in anything else, "for there is no other Name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).
 

Lisamn

Active member
Dec 29, 2020
795
220
43
#8
Good point, Exodus 24 was the passage that taught me exactly when the Old Covenant of Law was implemented with Israel

Exodus 24
And he said unto Moses, Come up unto the Lord, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship ye afar off.

2 And Moses alone shall come near the Lord: but they shall not come nigh; neither shall the people go up with him.

3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the Lord hath said will we do.

4 And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the Lord.

6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.

7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.

8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.

So for the New Covenant to be likewise implemented with the House of Israel and the House of Judah (Hebrews 8:8), it is not sufficient for Jesus to die on the cross for their sins (Matthew 1:21), the entire nation would also similarly needed to repent and believe in Jesus as their Messiah.

But we know that the current nation of Israel has fallen and is an enemy to God and the gospel (Romans 11), so this New Covenant could not have been implemented yet.

We in the Body of Christ gain the spiritual blessings of this new covenant because of the mystery of Christ revealed to Paul (Romans 16:25-26), but we do not replace the nation Israel, nor do we become the new "spiritual Israel" that God implemented the new covenant with.

It will be implemented with Israel after Jesus 2nd coming for them.
But some Christians do rule with Jesus over them..right?

Revelation‬ ‭20:4‬ ‭
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
‭‭
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
4,392
1,346
113
#9
Here's the problem: God has not offered forgiveness of sin to the Jews through "his grace", but rather only through Jesus Christ. There is no salvation in anything else, "for there is no other Name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).
This has always been true, even when partial forgiveness of sin was only through the shadow of Christ.

After Christ came, that was taken away and all men were to use Christ as he lived with us and was crucified.

But I don't think we can say that we know for a fact that every Jew that stays true to their customs is doomed to death, just as we cannot state it as fact that we know the Lord saves them. Christ is God, Christ and the Father are one, and the Jews go to God for their salvation. There has always been grace since the beginning of time. It does not seem reasonable that God would state that He stays true to them, and also that they are all doomed to death because God blinded them for our sakes.
 

Lisamn

Active member
Dec 29, 2020
795
220
43
#10
This has always been true, even when partial forgiveness of sin was only through the shadow of Christ.

After Christ came, that was taken away and all men were to use Christ as he lived with us and was crucified.

But I don't think we can say that we know for a fact that every Jew that stays true to their customs is doomed to death, just as we cannot state it as fact that we know the Lord saves them. Christ is God, Christ and the Father are one, and the Jews go to God for their salvation. There has always been grace since the beginning of time. It does not seem reasonable that God would state that He stays true to them, and also that they are all doomed to death because God blinded them for our sakes.
It was their unbelief that God then offered salvation to the gentiles.
Romans‬ ‭11:19-21‬ ‭
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
‭‭​

The Jews will come to know God again..

Zechariah 12:10
I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.


Just like He said...the promises are irrevocable
Romans‬ ‭11:28-29‬ ‭
From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.​
‭‭


 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
6,673
1,221
113
#11
But some Christians do rule with Jesus over them..right?

Revelation‬ ‭20:4‬ ‭
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
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Those gentiles who are saved during the Tribulation, will be saved under the gospel of the kingdom (Matthew 24:14), and so they will be joining National Israel.

National Israel's destiny will be on Earth, so yes, they will reign with Christ for a thousand years on Earth (Matthew 5:5).

But for us in the Body of Christ who are saved under the gospel of grace, we will be reigning in Heaven with Christ. (1 Corinthians 6:3)
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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#12
I wasn't speaking of individuals, but of the way most of of sects of Judaism think. Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't think God sees Israel as His enemy. I think that because it is through God they are blinded to Christ as the Messiah, God will never forsake them, their scripture is our scripture in the most part, and they believe in eternal life through the forgiveness of sin through the grace of the Lord.
Romans 11:28, basically the entire chapter, tells you that you are wrong, but if you don't want to see that, that is up to you.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#13
I propose that the New Covenant will be made EXCLUSIVELY with Israel, when they are forgiven, resurrected and returned to their Land as Ezekiel 37 promises.
That is incorrect. We must go by what is in the New Testament (which could also have been stated as "the New Covenant" (since the Greek word diatheke can be translated either way).

The New Covenant came into effect on the 14th of Nisan, AD 30, when Christ died on the cross on Mount Calvary. Proof? The veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom supernaturally. At the Last Supper the Lord Jesus Christ has already called the contents of "the cup" symbolically "my blood of the New Testament" (Covenant), and since He literally shed His blood on Calvary, that is when the New Covenant came into effect.

Paul makes it perfectly clear in 2 Corinthians 3 that the Church (redeemed Jews and Gentiles in Body) is under the New Covenant. Which means that what you have postulated in incorrect and unbiblical. At the same time, after the Second Coming of Christ, redeemed and restored Israel will also be under the New Covenant. These are two distinct entities both under the New Covenant.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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#14
That is incorrect. We must go by what is in the New Testament (which could also have been stated as "the New Covenant" (since the Greek word diatheke can be translated either way).

The New Covenant came into effect on the 14th of Nisan, AD 30, when Christ died on the cross on Mount Calvary. Proof? The veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom supernaturally. At the Last Supper the Lord Jesus Christ has already called the contents of "the cup" symbolically "my blood of the New Testament" (Covenant), and since He literally shed His blood on Calvary, that is when the New Covenant came into effect.

Paul makes it perfectly clear in 2 Corinthians 3 that the Church (redeemed Jews and Gentiles in Body) is under the New Covenant. Which means that what you have postulated in incorrect and unbiblical. At the same time, after the Second Coming of Christ, redeemed and restored Israel will also be under the New Covenant. These are two distinct entities both under the New Covenant.
https://forwhatsaiththescriptures.org/2015/06/10/able-ministers-of-the-new-testament/

Just because the same Greek word can be translated to either Testament or Covenant, does not allow you to conclude that the 2 terms are equivalent and interchangeable.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#15
Just because the same Greek word can be translated to either Testament or Covenant, does not allow you to conclude that the 2 terms are equivalent and interchangeable.
One only has to study the epistle to the Hebrews to refute your idea.

By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament [διαθήκης (diathēkēs)]. (Heb 7:22)
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant [διαθήκης (diathēkēs)] which was established upon better promises. (Heb 8:6)

And every lexicon will confirm that covenant and testament are indeed interchangeable.

Posters should refrain from posting false doctrines and ideas without properly studying what is written. I trust you will now acknowledge that you were quite mistaken. I believe you have been posting false ideas for quite some time, so perhaps its time to get on track.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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#16
One only has to study the epistle to the Hebrews to refute your idea.

By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament [διαθήκης (diathēkēs)]. (Heb 7:22)
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant [διαθήκης (diathēkēs)] which was established upon better promises. (Heb 8:6)

And every lexicon will confirm that covenant and testament are indeed interchangeable.

Posters should refrain from posting false doctrines and ideas without properly studying what is written. I trust you will now acknowledge that you were quite mistaken. I believe you have been posting false ideas for quite some time, so perhaps its time to get on track.
I suggest you take a look at the link I have provided, if you are interested of course.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#17
Romans 11:28, basically the entire chapter, tells you that you are wrong, but if you don't want to see that, that is up to you.
We have agreed to disagree, and in peace. It is good.

You believe God has condemned all Jews to death, and I believe, by careful study of Romans, there is a real possibility that God has preserved them through grace.
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
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#18
The New Covenant came into effect on the 14th of Nisan, AD 30, when Christ died on the cross on Mount Calvary.
It's true, Jesus died on Passover/Nisan 14. But, the new covenant doesn't begin until the Holy Spirit out pouring 50 days later at Pentecost.

Jesus has to rise, ascend, preform Priestly duties in the Heavenly Temple (see Heb Chapter 9, verse 24 in particular) & then send the Promise/Holy Spirit, that forever dwells in the believers heart.

OT references:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(MY NOTE: I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts)

Eze 36:
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
(MY NOTE: The LORD say's He will put a new spirit WITHIN you)

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
(MY NOTE: The LORD say's He will His spirit WITHIN you.)

NT references the PROMISE = Holy Spirit will be given

Lk 24:49 And, behold, I send "the promise" of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high
(MY NOTE: Jesus teaches he will send "the promise" the Father has made)

Jn 7:
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)
(MY NOTE: Jesus foretells of the giving/out pouring/sealing of His INDWELLING Holy Spirit yet be given to believers)

Acts 1:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for "the promise" of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me
(MY NOTE: Jesus tells them to wait in Jerusalem for "the promise" of the Father)

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days hence.
(MY NOTE: Jesus foretells the giving/baptism/out pouring of Hise INDWELLING Holy Spirit to come)

New Covenant is a Spiritual Sealing: Christ's baptism with His INDWELLING Holy Spirit

Acts 2:
1 (A) when the day of Pentecost was fully come
(MY NOTE: When the day of Pentecost had fully come)

4 And they were all "filled with the Holy Spirit" and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance
(MY NOTE: NT begins right here! FILLED via Christ's baptism with His saving/sealing INDWELLING Holy Spirit)

Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
(MY NOTE: God's Spirit DWELLS in every believer)

1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, "and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you"?
(MY NOTE: The Promised Gift of God's Holy Spirit DWELLS in every believer)

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.
(MY NOTE: Christ SEALS believers with Gods promise of the INDWELLING Holy Spirit)

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us.
(MY NOTE: God places/seals his love in our hearts (SEE OT REFERENCES ABOVE) via His INDWELLING Holy Spirit)
 

Blik

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Dec 6, 2016
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#19
We know that what is of God is good. The old covenant was of God, we know it was good. Christ ushered in a new covenant that made that one obsolete, God gave a better one.

So what was the old covenant? It was a shadow of Christ, it gave salvation of sin through the sacrifice of blood, but it saved only in sleep, not in life. It included commands to perform rituals that helped them obey the law that outlined the sins they were forgiven for. These rituals were a reflection of the life of the spirit as making a mark on the body reminded them, they were a people set apart for the Lord. With the new covenant, those rituals were replaced by the Holy Spirit that did the work of the rituals.

When Christ paid for our sins it was the new covenant, a much better one. We are made alive in Him, all those saints who had been kept for the Lord in sleep became alive and walked the streets of Jerusalem as we are told in Matthew 27:51-53 51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#20
This is what the site named "Bible Study" has to say about the number 50.
"
"The number 50 derives its meaning from its relationship to the coming of God's Holy Spirit. Fifty can be found at least 154 times in the Bible.

After Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene on Sunday morning, April 9 in 30 A.D., he ascended to the Father in heaven (John 20:17). His ascension, as a type of firstfruit from the dead (Revelation 1:5), occurred on the day God told the Israelites they were to wave a sheaf composed of the firstfruits of their harvest (Leviticus 23:9 - 11). It is on this day that the count of 50 days to the Feast of Pentecost begins.

In the New Testament, the word Pentecost comes from the Greek word for fiftieth (Strong's Concordance #G4005). Also known as the Feast of Weeks or Firstfruits, it was on this special Holy Day that God first poured his Holy Spirit upon about 120 believers who had gathered to keep the day (Acts 1:15, 2). They became the firstfruits of God's spiritual harvest of humans."