Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Justified]

one thing. sin is against a persons will.4 it is written he who sins is a slave 2 sin.

I would take it that you do not think man has the God given ability to choose to follow Christ Jesus.
If you hold to that then you must also agree that God has decided to condemn billions of people to hell for His glory. And remember these are people that had no choice in the matter as it was all decided before time began.

 

[Gideon300]

The problem with your reasoning is that you are not listening to the Lord, the Lord is truth not you. The Lord tells us sins that are not forgiven kills,that is truth. Scripture doesn't say it depends on when the unforgiven sin happens, sin today is the very same sin as sin tomorrow. The Lord says unforgiven sin kills.

You must have a different Bible to mine. Mine says:

…13He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.…

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;


In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

I threw in a KJV verse just in case you don't accept modern translations.

All our sins are already forgiven. What we do need is cleansing from sin when we sin after we've been saved. The idea that sin sends you to hell after you are born again is foolish and contradicts God's word.

Sin cuts of fellowship with God. It does not change relationship. Tell me how many of your sins were current when Lord Jesus dies? Answer, none. So His forgiveness extends to the very last sin ever to be committed and reaches back to Adam in Eden. I pity anyone who lives in such fear, constantly wondering if they've sinned and condemned themselves to hell. Such people diminish the love, mercy and grace of God. They diminish the wondrous power of the precious blood of the Lamb. Such people have no faith in the forgiveness that Lord Jesus died to secure. And whatever is not of faith is SIN.

 

[Gideon300]

I agree God will not cast us out but that is not what the text says is it. Notice "if they fall away" that is a personal choice of the person.

Also as for the prodigal son did you not notice that he left of his own choice.
The text says that for those that the reject salvation then for them to return would be, like you said and thus agree with the text, crucifying the Son of God all over again. God loves us enough to let us make our own choices. If we decide to reject salvation then He will not force us to be saved.

This for me is a sobering text as it shows that we can wander so far from God that we will reject the faith that saved us.

It also demonstrates that God longs to see His children come back to Him. I believe that anyone who s

 

[Gideon300]

I agree God will not cast us out but that is not what the text says is it. Notice "if they fall away" that is a personal choice of the person.

Also as for the prodigal son did you not notice that he left of his own choice.
The text says that for those that the reject salvation then for them to return would be, like you said and thus agree with the text, crucifying the Son of God all over again. God loves us enough to let us make our own choices. If we decide to reject salvation then He will not force us to be saved.

This for me is a sobering text as it shows that we can wander so far from God that we will reject the faith that saved us.

It also demonstrates that God longs to see His children come back to Him. I believe that anyone who strays will return sometime, battered, bruised, abused and starving, but still a son. Why? Because the Lord Jesus will keep him in His keeping power, because Lord Jesus said that He will lose none that are His, because Lord Jesus is author and finisher of our faith. If it depends on us, we are doomed. Salvation is God's business, not ours. If we could save ourselves, Jesus died in vain.

I'm old enough to have met many who have "fallen away." Most were never born again in the first place. Some were disillusioned and hurt by other Christians (if there were not so many "older brothers" there would not be as many prodigals).

Lord Jesus allows things to happen that will expose the individual to see the reality of their faith. He spoke to Jews who believed, telling them that they had to eat His flesh and drink His blood. They packed up and left in a huff. They believed, but they had no faith. Peter had both faith and belief. He knew that only Jesus had the words of eternal life.

 

[Gideon300]

being born again is a process. in the natural it takes 9 months.


"for now we see through a glass ---------------------------- darkly"

Wrong. Being born again is instant. A baby is born complete. It grows into maturity, but it has everything that it needs from birth. So it is with the born again spirit. Don't confuse conception and birth.

 

[Gideon300]

FreeGrace2 said:
James wasn't even discussing "saving faith". He was discussing that believers NEED TO demonstrate their faith to others so that others can see their faith.

A rather common reaction when first presented with the truth of James 2.


So you think God didn't already know what Abraham would do? He's omniscient, you know. What Abraham did was for the benefit of others, who could SEE his faith. Did you know that Abraham was very rich and had a lot of servants? Do you think Abraham offered Isaac in secret?

Not only that, but God preserved Abraham's work for humanity to read.


See above.


Do you understand what hypocrisy is and means? When a person doesn't live up to their claims, they are viewed as a hypocrite. Exactly like the example James gave in 2:15,16.

btw, 1 John 3:18 is parallel to what James wrote about:
"Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth."

iow, words/speech is meaningless apart from action.


That justification is salvation, and NOT in view in James. That's why Martin Luther was so confused with James. Paul's use of justification WAS about salvation.

James was using 'justification' to mean approval.


James 2:14-26 can be summarized by v.18 - But someone will say, You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

The problem is that translators who include quote marks goofed by putting the endquote after the first "deeds". That renders the whole verse confusing.

The "someone" is making the point that he is ABLE to "show his faith by his deeds". And he is challenging another to demonstrate their faith "without deeds", which is impossible.

See? Not confusing at all. James wanted his audience to show their faith to others. The ONLY WAY to do that is by deeds. No other way.

Here are some verses that prove that our lifestyle before others is important.

Rom 12:17 - Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.
Rom 14:18 - because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
Luke 16:15 - He said to them (pharisees), you are the ones who justifiy yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.
Col 4:5 - Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity.
1 Pet 2:12 - Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.
1 Pet 2:15 - For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people.
Notice that is our ACTIONS (deeds) that silence others. iow, they SEE what we do.
1 Thess 4:12 - so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.
Respect = approval = justification in the eyes of men
1 Tim 3:7 - He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.
Again, respect, approval, justification in the eyes of men
2 Cor 8:21 - For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man.
If this verse doesn't convince you, you don't want to be.
1 Jn 3:18 - Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.

The reason why Christians are exhorted to live in line with what God has done for us in Christ is because it is not automatic. Christians need to be shown by example, taught by the word and encouraged and exhorted to live in a way that is appropriate for a child of God.

Many churches are neglecting preaching and teaching, preferring a Sunday morning sing along with the band instead. It's a great way of increasing attendance, but leaves the people suffering spiritual malnutrition. We are in the time when most Christians won't endure sound teaching, at least in the Western world. Mega churches are packed with spiritual babies, some who have been saved for years but who are spiritually retarded. They are Satan bait, having not the slightest idea of God's kingdom, of resisting Satan, of what it means to take up the cross and deny self.

 

[Gideon300]

It also demonstrates that God longs to see His children come back to Him. I believe that anyone who s

Sorry about this. I hit the wrong button and exited the forum before completing the response.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If your system of living ignores the ten commands Jesus said to obey if you love him, because those honor God and the fellow woman-man we're suppose to love as ourselves, or 9 for those who don't honor the day God gifted us in his rest, you're on the wrong page.

Have you read scripture.

1. Moses said they must confirm and obey every word of the law or be cursed
2. In gal 3. Paul said whoever does not obey every word is cursed.
3. In James, James said if you keep the whole law yet fail in one point. Your guilty of all

The ten commands were NOT given to show us how to live. Jesus proved in his sermon on the mount that the law can not even tell you every possible way of breaking the command. As he said, If you even look at a woman with lust you have broken the command (You can not tell this from the law) you can obey the letter yet still be in sin.

why?

The law was a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. It exposes out sin (or sadly in the case of pharisees and religions, it does not expose their sin because they water down the law to a point they can obey it.

My living looks to what Jesus said will cause me to not break the Law. The law of love
If your living is attempting to keep the ten and it does not convict you of sin and show you how great a sinner you are. You are not looking to the law correctly. Because that is what it is intended to dol

 

[eternally-gratefull]

....tourist...The 11 is a amendment...by Jesus 2 love your neighbor.He said a new commandment i give 2 u.

Jesus was trying to say the 2 commands if we obey them, we will not break the ten

There are actually over 600 commands. If we look to all of scripture

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's where you get 12 from?
If you go by the words of Jesus it would be 2 commandments. Because as he said, all the ten are wrapped up in the two commands. Love the Lord with all your heart and mind. Love your neighbor as yourself.

That was the culmination of the 10 commands from the start. Jesus just put them into perspective.

I agree with everything but your last sentence.

It was not that way from the start

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It also demonstrates that God longs to see His children come back to Him. I believe that anyone who strays will return sometime, battered, bruised, abused and starving, but still a son. Why? Because the Lord Jesus will keep him in His keeping power, because Lord Jesus said that He will lose none that are His, because Lord Jesus is author and finisher of our faith. If it depends on us, we are doomed. Salvation is God's business, not ours. If we could save ourselves, Jesus died in vain.

I'm old enough to have met many who have "fallen away." Most were never born again in the first place. Some were disillusioned and hurt by other Christians (if there were not so many "older brothers" there would not be as many prodigals).

Lord Jesus allows things to happen that will expose the individual to see the reality of their faith. He spoke to Jews who believed, telling them that they had to eat His flesh and drink His blood. They packed up and left in a huff. They believed, but they had no faith. Peter had both faith and belief. He knew that only Jesus had the words of eternal life.

It depends what is mean by stray.

1. We have prodigal children. Who left. But does not deny his father
2. We have those who deny their father

the first still has his fathers blood. He is still a son

the second as John said, was never of us, if they were, they never would have left. He was never saved

 

[Blik]

The lord did not give us the law to teach us how to live

He gave it to SHOW US HOW WE FAILED to LIVE THE WAY HE REQUIRES. Ie to expose sin.

I am not against the law. I am against those trying to push law as a means of sanctification. IT WAS NOT MADE FOR THAT PURPOSE.

But you can’t hear that. Even thought paul put it there in black and white.

It seems clear to me that whenever we limit God we are wrong. That is also true of the spirit of the law that was established at creation. You want to limit it to having only one purpose and take from it all teaching. The 119th Psalm is from God and is truth, you are opposing that truth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It seems clear to me that whenever we limit God we are wrong. That is also true of the spirit of the law that was established at creation. You want to limit it to having only one purpose and take from it all teaching. The 119th Psalm is from God and is truth, you are opposing that truth.

Then why do you limit God

Paul told you the purpose of the law. You continue to ignore him

The spirit of the law was not established in creation. The law was given to condemn you and lead you to christ. Why did Adam and Eve need to be condemned and led to the coming messiah? They were sinless

The law is for sinners. Not for the righteous. This is scripture. Why do you continue to deny it?

 

[Blik]

Then why do you limit God

Paul told you the purpose of the law. You continue to ignore him

The spirit of the law was not established in creation. The law was given to condemn you and lead you to christ. Why did Adam and Eve need to be condemned and led to the coming messiah? They were sinless

The law is for sinners. Not for the righteous. This is scripture. Why do you continue to deny it?

To you, the law has only one purpose, to you all other scripture except telling of this one purpose is to be discarded. To me, the law has many purposes and is part of creation. Your mind is made up, and so is mine until I read scripture telling me different.

 

[walknlight]

To you, the law has only one purpose, to you all other scripture except telling of this one purpose is to be discarded. To me, the law has many purposes and is part of creation. Your mind is made up, and so is mine until I read scripture telling me different.

Good Day to you!

What other purpose did the Law have other than showing man he could not keep the Law?

God Bless....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To you, the law has only one purpose, to you all other scripture except telling of this one purpose is to be discarded. To me, the law has many purposes and is part of creation. Your mind is made up, and so is mine until I read scripture telling me different.

To scripture the law has only one purpose. Paul did not lie
when you take the law out of context. You make the law of no effect
the law should do One thing to you prove to you how sinful you are so you NEVER is pride think you are righteous. In doing this it takes your focus of self and puts it on God. This in turn causes you to learn to love, which in turn by practice will make you obedient to gods commands. Something the law can never do

 

[tourist]

....tourist...The 11 is a amendment...by Jesus 2 love your neighbor.He said a new commandment i give 2 u.

I tend to agree with this statement.

 

[walknlight]

2 things Icedaisey, First there's 11 commandments.Second: Every one that has a computer violates the second commandment.

Over 600 commandments in the Law of Moses......the scribes and pharisees added to that....

God Bless.,..

 

[Blik]

Good Day to you!

What other purpose did the Law have other than showing man he could not keep the Law?

God Bless....

We are not to tell the Lord we refuse to repent of our sin because it is impossible for us as a human to live sinless. We are still to repent.

The law gives knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:10 For by works of the law no human being3 will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
The law gives the commandments we are to keep when we love the Lord.
John 14:15 If you love me, you will ckeep mycommandments.
The law teaches us how to walk with the Lord.
Psalm 119:1 Blessed are those whose ways are blameless,
who walk according to the law of the Lord.
Psalm 119:9-10 How can a young person stay on the path of purity?
By living according to your word.
10 I seek you with all my heart;
do not let me stray from your commands.

 

[walknlight]

We are not to tell the Lord we refuse to repent of our sin because it is impossible for us as a human to live sinless. We are still to repent.

ok?

But, what other purpose did/ does the Law have other than showing man he could not or CANNOT keep the Law?