Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[rogerg]

The assertion was made that God is just and fair.
It's easy to establish that God is just from scripture, but I've yet to find in scripture where it says He is fair.
If it's there, I would like to know.

No, I don't think it is stated explicitly (but could have missed it), but anyway, I believe it is included within just and righteous.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Consider the Saviour in this way: whoever does not become saved, were not save because Christ was not their Saviour.
It is not possible for Christ to have been their Saviour yet not save them, otherwise, they would have been. The Saviour is only the Saviour because He saves those who are to be saved - not because He might have saved those who aren't, so, for the others, He is not Saviour. Both cannot be true at the same time - that He is their Saviour, yet at the same time, He doesn't save them.

Oh my friend, I know we are going to find something we agree on sooner or later. 10 To this end we labor and strive, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of everyone, and especially of those who believe.

That's is what the Word says, Savior to all. His blood was for all. You cannot change what it says. If you look that verse up I did not change it. God, who is the Savior of everyone! It is possible, because His Word says so.

"many" (but not "all") live because "many" (but not "all") have been given eternal life and are alive spiritually; "many" (but not "all") die(d) because eternal life was withheld from them.

“But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!” – Romans 5:15

It doesn't say many, it says the many, it means all.
“Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned”

Death came to the many, all people, through Adam. The gift that overflows from Christ is to the many, all people.

Again, there in black and white. It cannot be changed. The same is being said in both verses.

So, you're saying the Bible is wrong about itself and that you are really its true judge? Really? That is pretty arrogant and just flat wrong. The Bible never goes against itself, but it does complete itself - that is why there is both an OT and a NT.

No, I'm saying the verses are very clear and you are jumping to other verses to try and justify what you believe. The Word is clear. And so far, no one has been able to directly answer these verses. I'm still waiting on it. Have a blessed day!

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

He didn't create them for that. It was caused as a result of Adam. Besides that, He, by Himself had to make payment for those who would
receive salvation - He did not have to make such payment for all, so by any standard I can think of, that is fair, righteous, and just.

Well then we go back to the verse about Adam and sin entering the world through one man and Jesus being the Savior of all.

 

[Cameron143]

Just is probably the better word than fair. And I'm speaking of salvation. God would not be just if He determined some would be saved and some would be lost. The verses I have been sharing people seem to be ignoring. I believe they show that Christ died for all. Looks like that popcorn is gonna go stale again.

The reason I ask is because so many treat the terms fair and just as synonymous. In everyday speech this may well serve communication. But biblically they are very different.
Fairness has to do with equality. What is true of one is to be true of all. Justice, however, deals with the exacting of punishment for offense. Thus, to be just, God must exact punishment for sin. To be fair, He must do it the same way for everyone. As this is clearly not the case, biblically speaking fairness and justice are 2 very different things. God is free to punish one individual for their sins while simultaneously allowing another to escape punishment so long as the second individual has had their punishment paid by another.
It is in this way God can remain just and also the justifier of all who believe.

 

[Blain]

No brother, I am 100% sure of what I read in the Word and the character of God. Christ died for all. I have no doubt. God is just, and is also fair. For determinism to be true that would make God the author of evil and chaos in the world. I don't see that when I read the Word.Everything about God's character tells me He died for every single person. We can agree to disagree, I still appreciate your posts and there is a lot we do agree on. Blessings.

You handled that very well kudos to you

 

[rogerg]

Well then we go back to the verse about Adam and sin entering the world through one man and Jesus being the Savior of all.

Of all that He planned to save, not everyone.
Can we end this dialogue now?

 

[rogerg]

Thus, to be just, God must exact punishment for sin. To be fair, He must do it the same way for everyone.

He did exact it. He exacted it upon Christ who paid the punishment for those whom God chose to save. For those not covered by that payment, they must pay it of themselves - same punishment so fairly assessed and exacted. However, it would be unfair if
Christ paid the price for some, but they don't/didn't receive its benefit.

 

[Cameron143]

He did exact it. He exacted it upon Christ who paid the punishment for those whom God chose to save. For those not covered by that payment, they must pay it of themselves - same punishment so fairly assessed and exacted.

I know. But in order to get people to understand, you must first address underlying misconceptions that impact their reasoning. Baby steps.

 

[ButterflyJones]

All I can say anyone who understands the concept of justification and grace as taught by Paul would never make such a ridiculous statement.

It is completely absurd, like some how a person will flourish by adopting a sinful lifestyle.

Exactly what Paul warned about, here it is again. Let it really sink in.

And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say.

Their condemnation is just.

Roman 3:8

Do you really believe all sins were paid for at the cross?

Yes, I agree that those who are in Christ know he is Lord. We also know as you said the idea that our state of justification and eternal salvation through God's grace gives us a license to sin is not only absurd, but in my view is evidence those who make the argument do not know Jesus is Lord.

Otherwise they wouldn't deny his work on the cross that sealed his gospel. And the very reason he was born.

Those who make the sin assertion you may notice totally ignore all the passages in the Bible and posted here too that inform us those in Christ do not believe they can sin with impunity.

Therefore the assertion that OSAS gives license to sin actually is a slander on their part against God. Because God sent his only begotten son to bring the eternal life,salvation, covenant to the world by his grace alone.

Then I think the question comes as a turn about on them.

Why,in God's Holy name would anyone who does know Jesus is Lord, insist he died to give those of us in God's grace a license to sin? If they claim to be saved by the same Jesus and gospel ?

Seems adverse to the entirety of the New Testament doesn't it?

Jesus' blood sealed the new covenant not as an offer of salvation but as evidence of our Lord's sacrifice and work on the cross as his eternal accomplishment of salvation in the hearts of God’s people.Jesus gives rebirth,redemption,justification through our Lord's power to do so based on his work in bringing the gospel to this world.

We have been reborn from that dead in our sins carnal natural minded fallen state we were born into. We now have a new heart, and spirit.

All is by the grace of God, not our work or choice. It is God through Jesus' sacrificial work on the cross that blesses us with his gift of life, faith, and obedience.

Romans 8:32 “He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all”

“This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.” Luke 22:20

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The reason I ask is because so many treat the terms fair and just as synonymous. In everyday speech this may well serve communication. But biblically they are very different.
Fairness has to do with equality. What is true of one is to be true of all. Justice, however, deals with the exacting of punishment for offense. Thus, to be just, God must exact punishment for sin. To be fair, He must do it the same way for everyone. As this is clearly not the case, biblically speaking fairness and justice are 2 very different things. God is free to punish one individual for their sins while simultaneously allowing another to escape punishment so long as the second individual has had their punishment paid by another.
It is in this way God can remain just and also the justifier of all who believe.

If I may, Using your example of fair being equal, what is true of one is true of all. Lets look at this with regards to the eternal perspective

to be fair. God has to be equal to all. As in all have sinned and fall short. So in adam, all die. To be fair everyone must die

Then there is salvation.

To be faith God has to be equal to all. Which means everyone must have the chance to be saved, hence Christ died for all

in the end, God is deemed not only just but fair. Because the people who rejected him had just as much a fair chance to recieve him as the one who did recieve him.

Now if God only paid the price for a select group of people. And not the rest. When all are dead. Then we have an unfair God. and in this, an unjust God. Because justice shows no favorites. While it may seem God is still a just God because they deserved it anyway. In the eternal perspective, God will be questioned, because he was not a fair God and in the end showed favoritism. Imagine the husband That was chosen for hell, and the wife chosen for heaven. The wife is going to question why God chose here and not him, what made her so special God chose her. And what made the love of her life so un special God did not even give him a chance

all this will lead to another rebellion.

Thats why fatalism is so dangerous.

 

[ButterflyJones]

The option to trust God without/ before/even though we don't have understand ing is being left out of consideration for possibility.

I think the New Testament teachings indicate that isn't possible.

The natural carnally minded person,as we all are when born and maturing into this world and as Paul said is unable to trust God. Because the things of God are foolishness to the natural carnal minded person.

Which makes sense because that state of mind and ego is reminiscent of Lucifer's state of mind when he imagined his idea of Lordship over creation was superior to that of God. Which is why he had led his fellow angels who saw God the same way as he in a war against God.

So no, your observation is not sustained by God's teaching.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Justice, however, deals with the exacting of punishment for offense. Thus, to be just, God must exact punishment for sin. To be fair, He must do it the same way for everyone. As this is clearly not the case, biblically speaking fairness and justice are 2 very different things.

We agree to here.

God is free to punish one individual for their sins while simultaneously allowing another to escape punishment so long as the second individual has had their punishment paid by another.
It is in this way God can remain just and also the justifier of all who believe.

Here you lost me. Can you give me an example? I'm a little slow on the up take today.

 

[Cameron143]

If I may, Using your example of fair being equal, what is true of one is true of all. Lets look at this with regards to the eternal perspective

to be fair. God has to be equal to all. As in all have sinned and fall short. So in adam, all die. To be fair everyone must die

Then there is salvation.

To be faith God has to be equal to all. Which means everyone must have the chance to be saved, hence Christ died for all

in the end, God is deemed not only just but fair. Because the people who rejected him had just as much a fair chance to recieve him as the one who did recieve him.

Now if God only paid the price for a select group of people. And not the rest. When all are dead. Then we have an unfair God. and in this, an unjust God. Because justice shows no favorites. While it may seem God is still a just God because they deserved it anyway. In the eternal perspective, God will be questioned, because he was not a fair God and in the end showed favoritism. Imagine the husband That was chosen for hell, and the wife chosen for heaven. The wife is going to question why God chose here and not him, what made her so special God chose her. And what made the love of her life so un special God did not even give him a chance

all this will lead to another rebellion.

Thats why fatalism is so dangerous.

If God paid for everyone's sins, on what basis does He send people to hell?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

If I may, Using your example of fair being equal, what is true of one is true of all. Lets look at this with regards to the eternal perspective

to be fair. God has to be equal to all. As in all have sinned and fall short. So in adam, all die. To be fair everyone must die

Then there is salvation.

To be faith God has to be equal to all. Which means everyone must have the chance to be saved, hence Christ died for all

in the end, God is deemed not only just but fair. Because the people who rejected him had just as much a fair chance to recieve him as the one who did recieve him.

Slow hand clap starting, exactly what I'm getting at. But put much more succinctly than I did.

Now if God only paid the price for a select group of people. And not the rest. When all are dead. Then we have an unfair God. and in this, an unjust God. Because justice shows no favorites. While it may seem God is still a just God because they deserved it anyway. In the eternal perspective, God will be questioned, because he was not a fair God and in the end showed favoritism. Imagine the husband That was chosen for hell, and the wife chosen for heaven. The wife is going to question why God chose here and not him, what made her so special God chose her. And what made the love of her life so un special God did not even give him a chance

all this will lead to another rebellion.

Thats why fatalism is so dangerous.

Standing O, that's the ticket. Exactly what I have been saying all along about the charter of God. Thank you, well said.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

If God paid for everyone's sins, on what basis does He send people to hell?

He doesn't send people to hell. They choose to rebel. Look at the abortion issue that came up with the supreme court. There were women in the streets openly mocking, tearing up baby dolls saying they were killing their babies. They have chosen their path. They have spit in the face of Almighty God. They don't believe in hell, but if they do not repent, one day they will find themselves there.

 

[Cameron143]

We agree to here.



Here you lost me. Can you give me an example? I'm a little slow on the up take today.

Sure. God can exact punishment for my sins from me or Jesus. But I have definitely sinned so someone has to pay.
Since Jesus did pay for my sins, God can forgive me and remain just. He is also the One who justifies me. Thus God is just because the payment of my sins has been satisfied. He is also my justifier.
The same is true for all who believe.

 

[Cameron143]

He doesn't send people to hell. They choose to rebel. Look at the abortion issue that came up with the supreme court. There were women in the streets openly mocking, tearing up baby dolls saying they were killing their babies. They have chosen their path. They have spit in the face of Almighty God. They don't believe in hell, but if they do not repent, one day they will find themselves there.

Fair enough, but it's just semantics. So...on what basis do people merit hell?

 

[Blain]

He didn't create them for that. It was caused as a result of Adam. Besides that, He, by Himself had to make payment for those who would
receive salvation - He did not have to make such payment for all, so by any standard I can think of, that is fair, righteous, and just.

Slow hand clap starting, exactly what I'm getting at. But put much more succinctly than I did.



Standing O, that's the ticket. Exactly what I have been saying all along about the charter of God. Thank you, well said.

Slow hand clap starting, exactly what I'm getting at. But put much more succinctly than I did.



Standing O, that's the ticket. Exactly what I have been saying all along about the charter of God. Thank you, well said.

je did exact same thing with me it's like he has a peek into our hearts and speaks it.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Of all that He planned to save, not everyone.
Can we end this dialogue now?

You're adding to Scripture, that is not what the verse says. It's clear that it says the Savior to all, especially to those that believe. If you place your words in there the sentence doesn't make sense. " He's the Savior to all He planned to save, especially the ones He planned to save. That in no way makes sense.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Fair enough, but it's just semantics. So...on what basis do people merit hell?

Chiefly, rejecting Christ as their Savior. I don't see it as semantics. One is a just God allowing a person to choose to serve Him or walk away. The other is God determining some will go to hell not because of anything they have done but to apparently prove He is God. Just very odd to me. The Bible says God loves the sinner and wants no one to go to hell. That would be a lie if He determined who is hell bound.