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mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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ESV
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

NASB
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
Washing (3068) (luo) means to bathe oneself and specifically refers to washing the whole body and not part of it. The middle voice indicates that the washing was not forcibly applied against the pig's will but that the pig the washing himself. It pictures however an outer cleansing not an internal cleansing. The clear implication is that these false teachers had been fully exposed to the genuine gospel yet internally remained "full of dead men's bones". By the way don't press the proverb too far. Peter is not alluding to washing as a picture of baptism. The picture implies an outward cleansing form "defiling conduct". But the outward cleansing was readily undone by the pig's innate natural urge to find "relief" by returning to the mire. A pig can stay clean only a short time and then must head for the nearest mud hole. We do not condemn a pig for acting like a pig because it has a pig’s nature. If we saw a sheep heading for the mire, we would be concerned!

Peter’s point is that mere religious profession or even outward change does not change a person’s heart. These “professors but not possessors” seemed to some (especially the gullible) to have experienced salvation, but in due time they drifted back to the life that was a true reflection of their inner nature. Certainly the dog feels better after emptying his stomach, but it is still a dog. “Having an experience” did not change the dog's nature. In fact it only served as further proof of his “cannine nature,” because he came back and just like a dog lapped up his own vomit. What a disgusting picture of these vile false teachers!

The principle brought out by Peter calls for us all to apply this truth to our lives and reflect on our choices. Our choices are seen to be consistent with what we are. A good tree bears good fruit, a brackish spring pours forth brackish water, and the pig returns to wallowing in the mire.

What do my choices today and this past week, this past year, etc loudly proclaim about who I really am?
For heaven's sake, we need to be honest with ourselves!

The dog and pig in this context picture temporary external change resulting from conformity to a false profession of faith much like a chameleon blends with its surroundings whatever they might be. True faith is fruitful faith. False "faith" is shown by absence of good fruit (see Peter's earlier comments 2Pe 1:8, 9-note, 2Pe 1:10-note). Ignorance in the spiritual realm is not bliss but leads to fleshly indulgence. Unsaved people lack spiritual intelligence (Hos 4:6), and this causes them to give themselves to all kinds of fleshly and worldly indulgences (Acts 17:30; Ep 4:17 18, 19-note). Since we were born with a fallen nature it is natural for us to live sinful lives. Nature determines appetites and actions. A dog and a pig behave differently because they have different natures.

Jesus also used the designations "dogs" and "swine" in speaking of those opposed to God and his Word
Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces. (Mt 7:6-note)

The principle of the animal illustrations is that like these animals, these false teachers were never what they seemed to be on the outside. They had never experienced a changed heart and been made new creatures in Christ (2Cor 5:17-note). To the contrary, they were still old creatures in Adam! (cp 1Co 15:22) And so it should not surprise us that return to those things that reflect their true nature. These charlatans are like dirty pigs which can be washed (cp Jesus' comparison of Pharisees to white washed tombs Mt 23:27) on the outside but on the inside are still dead in their trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1-note) and filled with hostility toward God and His will (Col 1:21-note) Their hearts had never been washed clean by the blood of the Lamb and thus they were unable to behave in any way but "unclean". The irony is that the punishment for these fakers is that they incur a greater bondage to sin than before they masqueraded as teachers of the liberating truth of the Gospel! It is because of the very fact that false professors of a (pseudo) "new birth" return to their "pre-Christ" way which makes the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints so important. In other words those who persevere to the end of their life and never renounce their faith, prove by this perseverance that they are truly new creatures in Christ.

2 Peter 2:22 Commentary | Precept Austin

Hard Sayings of the Bible
When we read this verse in context, we recognize that the people being discussed are the false teachers whom Peter opposes. They were once orthodox Christians who were "cleansed from [their] past sins" (2 Peter 1:9), or "washed" (2 Peter 2:22). They had come to know Jesus Christ, and this was a personal knowledge that released them from "the corruption of the world," or, in Pauline language, the power of sin over them had been broken. And they had come to know "the way of righteousness" (meaning a righteous lifestyle; 2 Peter 2:21). It is not that in some way they had been taught poorly or had not experienced the power of God freeing them from the world and its desires. They had experienced all of this. They were in every way righteous and orthodox.But now they have done exactly what they are enticing others to do (2 Peter 2:18-19). They have claimed freedom, but their freedom is a freedom to live according to their desires. These desires have mastered them. They have rejected "the way of righteousness" or "the sacred command" (perhaps the teaching of Jesus or even the Old Testament standard of righteousness). They are back doing what they did before they were converted, but now they are claiming Christian justification for it.

Peter says that such people are worse off than before they were converted. He takes his words from the story in Matthew 12:45 and Luke 11:26 about the person cleansed from a demon who 730ends up in a worse state because the demon returns with seven others. The implication is that the person is in more bondage than before. Yet although verbally 2 Peter is closer to the statement about the demonized person, we are reminded even more of Luke 12:47-48, in which Jesus says that the person who does not know his master's will is beaten with few blows, while the one knowing it and still disobeying is beaten with many blows. Applied to the people in 2 Peter this indicates that the knowingly disobedient people he refers to will get a worse punishment than they would have received had they never been converted. They had been introduced to Jesus and experienced the power and freedom of his lordship, but now they have turned their backs on his teaching and are walking in willful disobedience.
Escaped (668) (apopheugo from from apo = marker of dissociation implying a rupture from a former association + pheugo = run away, seek safety by flight) means to escape completely, flee away from. (Used only in 2Peter - 2 Pet. 1:4; 2:18, 20)

The aorist tense indicates that this escape was an actual event at some time in the past. At some point in time, these false teachers and their followers wanted to escape the moral contamination of the world system and sought religion, even Jesus Christ (on their terms though, not His).

Knowledge (1922) (epignosis from gnosis = knowledge gained by experience + epi = direction toward or intensification of the gnosis) (4 of 20 NT uses are in 2Peter - see below) means a full, precise knowledge thus signifying a more complete, more thorough, larger knowledge than that found in gnosis.

Here are the 20 uses of epignosis in the NT -Rom. 1:28; 3:20; 10:2; Eph. 1:17; 4:13; Phil. 1:9; Col. 1:9, 10; 2:2; 3:10; 1Tim. 2:4; 2Tim. 2:25; 3:7; Titus 1:1; Philemon 1:6; Heb. 10:26; 2 Pet. 1:2, 3, 8; 2:20 Epignosis also implies a more intimate and personal relationship than gnosis. The learner exhibits a more thorough participation in the acquiring of knowledge. In the NT epignosis often refers to knowledge which should influence one's spiritual conduct in contrast to gnosis which Vincent says may be concerned with the intellect without affecting the character.

Epignosis is a knowledge that speaks of personal involvement. Peter's point is quite clear - he is saying that these individuals had experienced an intimate knowledge of Jesus Christ, and that knowledge included the truth about His being "Lord" (kurios - Master, Ruler, Absolute ownership, total power, supreme in authority) and "Savior" (Soter - Deliverer, Preserver, Protector, Healer Who rescues from danger or destruction and brings into a state of prosperity and blessedness). But knowledge alone, even the more intimate knowledge of epignosis, does not save a person, although it will make them more accountable at the judgment of unbelievers. For epignosis to be of any spiritual value, there must be a heart submission to that knowledge and a conduct which is in accord with that yieldedness.

*BE SURE TO - Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature.

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

2 Peter 2:20-21 Commentary | Precept Austin
 
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mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,132
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I don't know, but it surely is what he does. We know that from the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant:

23“For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24“When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25“But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.26“So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27“And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28“But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29“So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30“But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31“So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32“Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”"-Matthew 18:23-35

The Master really did forgive the servants debt but later reinstated the debt, and Jesus says that is what his heavenly Father will do to us, too, even though, as you say, he knows ahead of time who will receive it and who will not.
The picture illustrates God's total forgiveness when dealing with our sins at the cross. Our debt has been paid in full by Jesus. The contrast in verse 28, where the same servant is unwilling to forgive his fellow servant a debt of a hundred denarii is deliberately presented as a hideous hypothetical situation. As unbelievable as this action would be, that is how unbelievable it would be for a genuine Christian, who has been forgiven such a huge debt, to be unforgiving of others with such a small debt. In the story, such an unforgiving servant is called a "wicked" servant because no genuine born again Christian would have such an unforgiving heart.

A Christian’s forgiveness of others is based on an understanding that he has been forgiven by God’s undeserved and unearned mercy. Jesus warned that God cannot forgive us if we do not have humble and repentant hearts and we reveal the condition of our hearts by the way we treat others. Hearts that are humble and appreciate God’s grace gladly forgive others from a heart that is saved, but proud and revengeful hearts with no true repentance, that don't forgive in such small mattersrs, reveal a heart that is unsaved and don't receive God's forgiveness.

Those who are unforgiving from the heart show that they are unfitted to receive God’s forgiveness. Failure to forgive in such a small matter shows that this person has not understood God’s grace and forgiveness, hence the term, "wicked servant," which is not descriptive of a genuine believer. The fact that this person is called a "servant" does not necessarily mean they are saved. The Jews were referred to as "the Lord’s servants" - You are my witnesses, says the LORD, my servant, whom I chose.. - Isaiah 43:10, but they were not all saved.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
This thread is teaching me a few things.

1. How far people will go to argue about God, as long as it has very little to do with God.

2. How far prove-a-point wins over having a point.

3. And, Moni? (BTW, I know your name isn't Moni, but I've known so many men in my life where their names seem "girlish," but seeming and being were so different. I've known men named Carrol, Merriem, and Mich. And all were mighty men of God, so now I know a man called Moni.) You're teaching an old lady how modern technology does not win out over don't-feel-good. Since you're in the handheld device generation, I was kind of hoping you'd be back online already, letting us know you're okay, but that wasn't to be.

I do hope waking up and moving again isn't as painful as the sounds I heard from other men after their heart surgery. The only time I've heard pain that level before was on TV when women were having babies. And, I think the groans were worse for the men, because no midwife ever told a woman, "I know this hurts like hell, but you have to get up anyway."

If it is that bad, listen to them. And know others are watching you hoping to be that good one day. I remember watching a man walking down the corridor with a posse of nurses and therapists with him, a chair being pushed behind him, in case he had to sit NOW, a nurse just taking all his IVs next to him, and the grimace on his face. And, I remember thinking, "I can't wait until John gets that far."

And then when John woke up and started his fight back to normal life again, he watched another guy do the same thing, and wanted to be him. By the time he was that guy, the IVs were gone. BUT, he then saw a guy walking down the hall with a walker, and wanted to be that guy. When he became that guy, he was in the therapy room. And an old patient returned, and danced the jig. So John wanted to be that guy. And he did become that guy.

Why? Because "that guy" isn't just regaining hope for himself. He's giving hope to a lot of others watching him make advances to where they want to be. The biggest thrill for all the men I watched looking out for "that guy," was the best advance. When "that guy" walked out the door, not to return.

My hope is you being THAT GUY, even if it hurts like hell to get there. It's worth it. Normal life is always worth it!

Be THAT GUY. And I'm praying that you get to "that guy" with the speed that first guy took it. The guy who was screaming in pain was home a week later. John took seven months. I am praying you are that guy who takes only a week.

Because better either guy, than the guy who spends his day arguing, just to argue on a forum that's supposed to be about enjoying and learning more and more about the Lord.
 

Lewiz

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2018
346
22
18

show us where god causes people to stop believing by being unfaithful
Actually, I'm with you on this one.
You don't have to stop believing to be unfaithful

Remember "the devils also believe, and tremble"?

Satan never stopped believing in God......... he rebelled from Him. It's what else Satan believes that condemned him.

Satan believed he could ascend unto the MOST HIGH. He believed his own lie thru pride, and was damned.

Outright rebellion brings destruction.

Christians lose out when they rebel, and that rebellion begins by living in sin.

But not the sins you think about, for a rebel can remain
very moral while still living in sin.

It's called disobedience. By omission & commission.

Lotza verses in the NT about obedience & disobedience, EG.

Lack of commitment is both omission & commission. Lack of commitment is also lack of faithfulness.

We are saved by grace thru faith....... living by faith.

Quit living by faith, & what happens to the covenant? It's broken.

Faithful works are not of ourselves. God gave us faith to believe, & power as the Sons of God to perform faithful works.

We have to live by that faith to keep our side of the covenant.

The same thing that got Israel in so much trouble will do the same thing to us. Disobedience & unbelief.

Because we under a better covenant established on better promises, the greater judgment to those who don't keep the better covenant.


Show us how us doing anyhing by our power is not considered earning a wage.
God expects faithfulness, because He gave us everything to do what we could not do in our own ability. So it not by our works, for we do so thru the anointing of the Holy Spirit we receive at salvation, and only those works the Holy Spirit leads us to do.

It's not by our might , nor by our power, but by My Spirit saith the Lord.(Zechariah 4:6)




 

Lewiz

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2018
346
22
18
Washing (3068) (luo) means to bathe oneself and specifically refers to washing the whole body and not part of it. The middle voice indicates that the washing was not forcibly applied against the pig's will but that the pig the washing himself. It pictures however an outer cleansing not an internal cleansing. The clear implication is that these false teachers had been fully exposed to the genuine gospel yet internally remained "full of dead men's bones". By the way don't press the proverb too far. Peter is not alluding to washing as a picture of baptism. The picture implies an outward cleansing form "defiling conduct". But the outward cleansing was readily undone by the pig's innate natural urge to find "relief" by returning to the mire. A pig can stay clean only a short time and then must head for the nearest mud hole. We do not condemn a pig for acting like a pig because it has a pig’s nature. If we saw a sheep heading for the mire, we would be concerned!

Peter’s point is that mere religious profession or even outward change does not change a person’s heart. These “professors but not possessors” seemed to some (especially the gullible) to have experienced salvation, but in due time they drifted back to the life that was a true reflection of their inner nature. Certainly the dog feels better after emptying his stomach, but it is still a dog. “Having an experience” did not change the dog's nature. In fact it only served as further proof of his “cannine nature,” because he came back and just like a dog lapped up his own vomit. What a disgusting picture of these vile false teachers!

The principle brought out by Peter calls for us all to apply this truth to our lives and reflect on our choices. Our choices are seen to be consistent with what we are. A good tree bears good fruit, a brackish spring pours forth brackish water, and the pig returns to wallowing in the mire.

What do my choices today and this past week, this past year, etc loudly proclaim about who I really am?
For heaven's sake, we need to be honest with ourselves!

The dog and pig in this context picture temporary external change resulting from conformity to a false profession of faith much like a chameleon blends with its surroundings whatever they might be. True faith is fruitful faith. False "faith" is shown by absence of good fruit (see Peter's earlier comments 2Pe 1:8, 9-note, 2Pe 1:10-note). Ignorance in the spiritual realm is not bliss but leads to fleshly indulgence. Unsaved people lack spiritual intelligence (Hos 4:6), and this causes them to give themselves to all kinds of fleshly and worldly indulgences (Acts 17:30; Ep 4:17 18, 19-note). Since we were born with a fallen nature it is natural for us to live sinful lives. Nature determines appetites and actions. A dog and a pig behave differently because they have different natures.

Jesus also used the designations "dogs" and "swine" in speaking of those opposed to God and his Word
Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces. (Mt 7:6-note)

The principle of the animal illustrations is that like these animals, these false teachers were never what they seemed to be on the outside. They had never experienced a changed heart and been made new creatures in Christ (2Cor 5:17-note). To the contrary, they were still old creatures in Adam! (cp 1Co 15:22) And so it should not surprise us that return to those things that reflect their true nature. These charlatans are like dirty pigs which can be washed (cp Jesus' comparison of Pharisees to white washed tombs Mt 23:27) on the outside but on the inside are still dead in their trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1-note) and filled with hostility toward God and His will (Col 1:21-note) Their hearts had never been washed clean by the blood of the Lamb and thus they were unable to behave in any way but "unclean". The irony is that the punishment for these fakers is that they incur a greater bondage to sin than before they masqueraded as teachers of the liberating truth of the Gospel! It is because of the very fact that false professors of a (pseudo) "new birth" return to their "pre-Christ" way which makes the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints so important. In other words those who persevere to the end of their life and never renounce their faith, prove by this perseverance that they are truly new creatures in Christ.

2 Peter 2:22 Commentary | Precept Austin

Escaped (668) (apopheugo from from apo = marker of dissociation implying a rupture from a former association + pheugo = run away, seek safety by flight) means to escape completely, flee away from. (Used only in 2Peter - 2 Pet. 1:4; 2:18, 20)

The aorist tense indicates that this escape was an actual event at some time in the past. At some point in time, these false teachers and their followers wanted to escape the moral contamination of the world system and sought religion, even Jesus Christ (on their terms though, not His).

Knowledge (1922) (epignosis from gnosis = knowledge gained by experience + epi = direction toward or intensification of the gnosis) (4 of 20 NT uses are in 2Peter - see below) means a full, precise knowledge thus signifying a more complete, more thorough, larger knowledge than that found in gnosis.

Here are the 20 uses of epignosis in the NT -Rom. 1:28; 3:20; 10:2; Eph. 1:17; 4:13; Phil. 1:9; Col. 1:9, 10; 2:2; 3:10; 1Tim. 2:4; 2Tim. 2:25; 3:7; Titus 1:1; Philemon 1:6; Heb. 10:26; 2 Pet. 1:2, 3, 8; 2:20 Epignosis also implies a more intimate and personal relationship than gnosis. The learner exhibits a more thorough participation in the acquiring of knowledge. In the NT epignosis often refers to knowledge which should influence one's spiritual conduct in contrast to gnosis which Vincent says may be concerned with the intellect without affecting the character.

Epignosis is a knowledge that speaks of personal involvement. Peter's point is quite clear - he is saying that these individuals had experienced an intimate knowledge of Jesus Christ, and that knowledge included the truth about His being "Lord" (kurios - Master, Ruler, Absolute ownership, total power, supreme in authority) and "Savior" (Soter - Deliverer, Preserver, Protector, Healer Who rescues from danger or destruction and brings into a state of prosperity and blessedness). But knowledge alone, even the more intimate knowledge of epignosis, does not save a person, although it will make them more accountable at the judgment of unbelievers. For epignosis to be of any spiritual value, there must be a heart submission to that knowledge and a conduct which is in accord with that yieldedness.

*BE SURE TO - Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature.

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

2 Peter 2:20-21 Commentary | Precept Austin
Due to the fact there's commentaries for and against, I believe we both lose with this particular scripture.

I think we can come up with more & plainer scriptures than this one, can't we?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Actually, I'm with you on this one.
You don't have to stop believing to be unfaithful

Remember "the devils also believe, and tremble"?

Satan never stopped believing in God......... he rebelled from Him. It's what else Satan believes that condemned him.

Satan believed he could ascend unto the MOST HIGH. He believed his own lie thru pride, and was damned.

Outright rebellion brings destruction.

Christians lose out when they rebel, and that rebellion begins by living in sin.

But not the sins you think about, for a rebel can remain
very moral while still living in sin.

It's called disobedience. By omission & commission.

Lotza verses in the NT about obedience & disobedience, EG.

Lack of commitment is both omission & commission. Lack of commitment is also lack of faithfulness.

We are saved by grace thru faith....... living by faith.

Quit living by faith, & what happens to the covenant? It's broken.

Faithful works are not of ourselves. God gave us faith to believe, & power as the Sons of God to perform faithful works.

We have to live by that faith to keep our side of the covenant.

The same thing that got Israel in so much trouble will do the same thing to us. Disobedience & unbelief.

Because we under a better covenant established on better promises, the greater judgment to those who don't keep the better covenant.




God expects faithfulness, because He gave us everything to do what we could not do in our own ability. So it not by our works, for we do so thru the anointing of the Holy Spirit we receive at salvation, and only those works the Holy Spirit leads us to do.

It's not by our might , nor by our power, but by My Spirit saith the Lord.(Zechariah 4:6)




again i take you to john

1 John 3 - Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or [b]knows Him.7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil [c]has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.9 No one who is [d]born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is [e]born of God.10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: [f]anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.


then i will take you to James

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

you see God has established what is righteous, and what is not, and the difference is 1 sin, so when we look to god and judge ourselves, we have to look from this viewpoint, 1 sin makes me guilty, how many sins have i commited? I am unworthy, this leads us to grace and mercy, and keeps us humble and focused on God.

as far as disobedience goes in living like the world? A child of God can not do this, why? Because he is special? No, because he has been born of God.

The children of isreal were disobedient because of unbelief, abraham sinned, yet he was declaired righteous because he had faith in god, many people claim to be saved, but their life says otherwise. Also, many claimed to be saved and were active in the churxh then left, the question is, why did the leave? As a prodigal child, or because they were a dog, who return d to his own vomit (never saved or made a new creation)
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
1,140
246
63
Why do we who believe in eternal security not say a person should live like the devil? Everybody must know a life of sin cannot be a good life. That's what the world thinks. But most people who lived that way for a while realized how wrong they are. A good life is a life free from sin and free from any law.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
113
Why do we who believe in eternal security not say a person should live like the devil? Everybody must know a life of sin cannot be a good life. That's what the world thinks. But most people who lived that way for a while realized how wrong they are. A good life is a life free from sin and free from any law.
And even tho sin will not cost you your salvation, your works will still be judged and you will receive reward/punishment for them
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
1,140
246
63
And even tho sin will not cost you your salvation, your works will still be judged and you will receive reward/punishment for them
Amen, that's true!!!
 

Lewiz

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2018
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again i take you to john

1 John 3 - Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or [b]knows Him.7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil [c]has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.9 No one who is [d]born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is [e]born of God.10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: [f]anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.


then i will take you to James

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

you see God has established what is righteous, and what is not, and the difference is 1 sin, so when we look to god and judge ourselves, we have to look from this viewpoint, 1 sin makes me guilty, how many sins have i commited? I am unworthy, this leads us to grace and mercy, and keeps us humble and focused on God.

as far as disobedience goes in living like the world? A child of God can not do this, why? Because he is special? No, because he has been born of God.

The children of isreal were disobedient because of unbelief, abraham sinned, yet he was declaired righteous because he had faith in god, many people claim to be saved, but their life says otherwise. Also, many claimed to be saved and were active in the churxh then left, the question is, why did the leave? As a prodigal child, or because they were a dog, who return d to his own vomit (never saved or made a new creation)

4Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s[SUP]b[/SUP] seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

There'a a huge difference between those who fall to sin & those who practices sinning. These verses agree with Ezekiel 18.
21“But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. 23Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? 24But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

EVERYONE, saint & sinner alike who practices sin also practices lawlessness. For the Christian, it is rebellion, whether it's capital murder, or changing the Gospel piece by piece because of pet sins.
 
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LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
1,140
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4Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s[SUP]b[/SUP] seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

There'a a huge difference between those who fall to sin & those who practices sinning. These verses agree with Ezekiel 18.
21“But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. 23Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? 24But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

EVERYONE, saint & sinner alike who practices sin also practices lawlessness. For the Christian, it is rebellion, whether it's capital murder, or changing the Gospel piece by piece because of pet sins.
Did David not practice sin when he committed murderer and adultery?
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
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[FONT=&quot]Many think that John 10:27-29 would proof nothing about eternal security, because a person can jump from God's hand by stopping to follow him. Well...

"Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?" (Isaiah 40:12)[/FONT]
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
1,140
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Who owns a persons salvation? The person.. or Jesus?

If Jesus owns it.. and He keeps it.. then how is it undone?

Be assured and secure in knowing He never leaves
Amen, correct to say otherwise was likewise to say Satan was stronger than Jesus
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
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But the one who leaves God to worship a false god can never return, ever.
This is totally madness and luckily not scriptural. Only those who take 666 cannot be forgiven.