Once saved always saved ?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
M

Mark777

Guest
#41
#41
Eternally grateful,
I don't think that anyone here, with the possible exception of PBUH (not sure where he is coming from), thinks that salvation is earned or kept on the basis of works. I think we would probably all agree that works are the fruit of repentance, not the means of justification. The issue is whether it is possible for a person to truely recieve Christ and then depart from Him. " 'Now the just shall live by faith; but if anyone draws back, my soul has no pleasure in him.' But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul." It is those who continue in faith, who continue in the grace of God, that are saved. Why does the Scripture warn against drawing back if it is not possible to do so?

It was belief minus faith.

You seem to make a distinction between faith and belief. Can you please explain this. I have always seen them as synonymous.
 
Last edited:
F

francina

Guest
#42
#42
Why is the word apostasy in the bible? Does anyone know what it means? It means this argument is crazy!

Paul in almost all of his letters stated that those who are born again must do 'works' to corroborate. If it is automatic with true salvation, he would not have to tell those who are truly saved what works they must do. I don't know if you were referring to my statement about Hitler, but I think I stated clearly, that this is what Charles Stanley said in his book. You are trying to support the doctrine & move away from it the same time.
 
VW

VW

Banned
#43
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#43
francina said:
Why is the word apostasy in the bible? Does anyone know what it means? It means this argument is crazy!

Paul in almost all of his letters stated that those who are born again must do 'works' to corroborate. If it is automatic with true salvation, he would not have to tell those who are truly saved what works they must do. I don't know if you were referring to my statement about Hitler, but I think I stated clearly, that this is what Charles Stanley said in his book. You are trying to support the doctrine & move away from it the same time.
Click to expand...

What works are we to do? What works are acceptable in God's sight? What works meet the requirements of His holiness? Do works of the Law? If so, then Paul would not have written as he did that if one is under the Law, then they have been severed from grace.

The works that we are to do are those which God prepared before the foundations of the world were laid that we should walk in them. Notice that we walk in them, not that we do them. The works we do are those that are accomplished in the power of the Holy Spirit, at His leading.
 
VW

VW

Banned
#44
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#44
In addition to this above, it must be understood that the changes in the believer are not his own work, nor the result of anything he has done, but rather the work of God as He changes us from the inside, by the working of His Holy Spirit. This working in us is according to the power He demonstrated when He raised Jesus from the dead.
 
P

PBUH

Banned
#45
Jan 24, 2011
273
0
0
#45
eternally-gratefull said:
How do you think Paul received false revelation?? Can you explain?

Saul Killed Christian because they taught salvation through Christ alone, and took works out of it. He thought Jesus was a fraud. Do you think Jesus was a fraud?
Click to expand...
Hi Eternal

That is a bit of twisted logic.
 
P

PBUH

Banned
#46
Jan 24, 2011
273
0
0
#46
Mark777 said:
Am I to understand from this that you do not consider Paul's letters to be inspired Scripture?
Click to expand...

Hi Mark

It was inspired but not from God.

Satan failed at stopping the teachings of Jesus pbuh while JEsus pbuh was on Earth.

After Jesus pbuh left Satan tried to eliminate the message through his right hand man Saul by killing them off. That failed.

Satan then tried to corrupt the teachings of Jesus pbuh. That worked.

The Gospels are Hellenistic religious narratives in the tradition of the Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament, which constituted the “Scriptures” to those Greek-speaking Christians who wrote the four canonical Gospels and who appealed to it, explicitly or implicitly, in nearly every paragraph they wrote. (Randal Helms, Gospel Fictions, p. 16)
The gospels were written by gentiles converted to Pauline Christianity.
What was Pauline Christianity ?
Pauline Christology has only minimally to do with the actual historical Jesus. Hence, the faith in Christ as held by primitive preaching led by Paul was something new in comparison with the preaching of Jesus, it was a new type of religion based god-man of Pagan Religion.
(The Hijacking of Christianity, Al Haj A.D. Ajijola, p. 4)
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#47
#47
without realizing for some Grace is used as a liscense to sin in not heeding that there are instructions Jesus gave us to abide in, He spoke of marriage, justice, unforgiveness just to mention a few. We all struggle with our own personal issues and yet we cant just keep claiming grace and not direct our hearts to God to heal us from them. Gods grace is still evident, has been thruout the bible, yet we just go round the mountain in the meantime and allow ourselves to be robbed of blessings He has for us..

Mercy seat is open yes, but the terrible day of the Lord is coming
we all desire to hear "faithful servant" on that day,
 
F

francina

Guest
#48
#48
If you are saying that only the Holy Spirit is working & not us being enabled by the Spirit , then when we sin, we have nothing to do with that either. The bible tells us to submit to the Spirit , to set our minds on the Spirit, to renew our minds with the Word, to practice the faith, to add to our faith etc etc..
 
F

francina

Guest
#49
#49
‘Works of Law’

The term ‘works of law’ is only used by Paul in the bible. James & Jesus simply uses the word ‘works’. The ‘works of law’ are practices that were entirely Jewish. He makes this clear in his writing to the Galatians-
First he begins by emphasising that he does not get his instructions from humans but directly from Jesus Christ. He talks about them listening to men, who are insisting that to be saved they need to follow certain ‘works’. Jesus often rebuked the religious leaders for adding their traditions to the law.
He questions Peter “why are you trying to make Gentiles live by Jewish traditions?”
What is he speaking of here, Peter did not want to be cristicised for eating with gentiles.
In Galatians he is so specific, you really have to be one of those with itching ears to take what you want to take out of it in order to believe that grace means we do not have to live according to God’s commands for our salvation.
Specifc things he mentions:
eating with gentiles, circumcision, holy days, feasts these are the things he speaks against!!!
One other document where ‘works of law’ is mentioned is in one of the dead sea scrolls named MMS. This is what those who studied this scroll found.
"The issues include bringing Gentile corn into the Temple, the presentation
of Gentile offerings, and the cooking of sacrificial meat in unfit (impure)
vessels. Other rulings concern cleansing of lepers, admitting the blind and
the deaf into the Temple; and permitting intermarriage with Ammonite and
Moabite converts, long forbidden to enter the congregation of Israel (Deuteronomy
23:3). Other issues involve the transmission of impurity by a flow
of water (musaq), the intermixture of wool and linen (sha-atnez) and perhaps
the climax of the discussion: the intermarriage of priests with the common people.
"Most of the rulings espoused by the author of MMT are based directly upon
Biblical law (for example, the prohibition against plowing with unlike animals
in Deuternomy 22:10). A few others are interpretations or amplifications of
Mosaic prescriptions (for example, bans on Gentile offerings and dogs in the
Temple). The list clearly reflects a conservative reaction against a relaxation
of Torah precepts" (ibid., p.53-54).
In Galatians 4:9-12 , Paul expresses his frustration
8Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
 
F

francina

Guest
#50
#50
Paul speaks in Galatians about the works of law vs. the works of flesh ( which condemns us to hell ) & the fruit of the Spirit ( we our to sow to in order to reap eternal life )
 
C

Crazy4GODword

Guest
#51
#51
eternally-gratefull said:
How do you think Paul received false revelation?? Can you explain?

Saul Killed Christian because they taught salvation through Christ alone, and took works out of it. He thought Jesus was a fraud. Do you think Jesus was a fraud?
Click to expand...
Wait i thought John wrote Revelation.....or are you talking about a revelation?
 
VW

VW

Banned
#52
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#52
francina said:
Paul speaks in Galatians about the works of law vs. the works of flesh ( which condemns us to hell ) & the fruit of the Spirit ( we our to sow to in order to reap eternal life )
Click to expand...
Was the Law a covenant?

Simply, when God spoke to the nation of Israel from the mountain, He was making a covenant with them. We were never part of that covenant, because we were excluded by our race.

God has made a new covenant with us, in Jesus Christ. In this covenant, He writes His laws upon our hearts and our minds, and He remembers our sins no more. But the most important part of this new covenant is that everyone will know God, no one will teach others to know Him, because they all will know Him, from the greatest to the least of them.

There is a mind set which is prevalent in church today. It has made faith to be of the written word, works to be as we can see with our eyes, and salvation to be by confession and belief alone. Even worse, the Spirit is left out of the equation, and in fact salvation is by the Spirit of God, and faith is by the Spirit of God, and the works are by the Spirit of God. And the works, what sort are they? Love.

I know that I have posted this scripture often, but here goes again:

Hence, He is able to save forever those who are drawing near to God through Him, because He always lives to make intercession for them.

This sentence came right after we see written in scripture that the Law was useless because it could make nothing perfect.

God has one demand of us, only one. Perfection. Absolute perfection. He does not countenance imperfection of any sort. This is why we abide in Jesus, because He is perfect, and when we abide in Him, we are seen by God in the perfection of Jesus.

In Christ,
 
M

Mark777

Guest
#53
#53
VW said:
God has one demand of us, only one. Perfection. Absolute perfection. He does not countenance imperfection of any sort. This is why we abide in Jesus, because He is perfect, and when we abide in Him, we are seen by God in the perfection of Jesus.

,
Click to expand...
Amen and amen. All things boil down to abiding in Christ and Him living is us.
 
M

Mark777

Guest
#54
#54
PBUH said:
Hi Mark

It was inspired but not from God.

Satan failed at stopping the teachings of Jesus pbuh while JEsus pbuh was on Earth.

After Jesus pbuh left Satan tried to eliminate the message through his right hand man Saul by killing them off. That failed.

Satan then tried to corrupt the teachings of Jesus pbuh. That worked.

The Gospels are Hellenistic religious narratives in the tradition of the Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament, which constituted the “Scriptures” to those Greek-speaking Christians who wrote the four canonical Gospels and who appealed to it, explicitly or implicitly, in nearly every paragraph they wrote. (Randal Helms, Gospel Fictions, p. 16)
The gospels were written by gentiles converted to Pauline Christianity.
What was Pauline Christianity ?
Pauline Christology has only minimally to do with the actual historical Jesus. Hence, the faith in Christ as held by primitive preaching led by Paul was something new in comparison with the preaching of Jesus, it was a new type of religion based god-man of Pagan Religion.
(The Hijacking of Christianity, Al Haj A.D. Ajijola, p. 4)
Click to expand...
G'day PBUH.
So what do you consider to be an accurate record of the historical Jesus and do you consider any of the NT to be the inspired word of God? I see you consider yourself not Christian. Would you care to elaborate on your spiritual position?
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#55
#55
francina said:
If you are saying that only the Holy Spirit is working & not us being enabled by the Spirit , then when we sin, we have nothing to do with that either. The bible tells us to submit to the Spirit , to set our minds on the Spirit, to renew our minds with the Word, to practice the faith, to add to our faith etc etc..
Click to expand...
im saying we have an active part to play being empowered by the holy spirt, act of our will to renew our minds and in renewing our minds we turn away from the things of this world and look to Him who is the source of our strength we we cant on our own, repent actually means to "turn from" not just saying sorry everytime, even though He is patient(grace in itself)
God will not be mocked
 
F

francina

Guest
#56
#56
VW you have not taken the time to read what I wrote concerning 'works of law'. Those were prophetic in nature, all pointing to the work of Christ, constantly reminding of clean & unclean & pointing to Jehovah as the only true God. If any gentile wanted to become a part of the covenant they had to become Jews & follow all these rituals.
Now, the moral laws were for the whole world as seen in the flood, in the destruction of Sodom & the other 3 cities. It is seen in the fact that prophets were sent to gentile nations telling them to repent from their sins , like Nineveh. As Paul wrote 8 We know that the law is good when used correctly. 9 For the law was not intended for people who do what is right. It is for people who are lawless and rebellious, who are ungodly and sinful, who consider nothing sacred and defile what is holy, who kill their father or mother or commit other murders. 10 The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who practice homosexuality, or are slave traders,[c] liars, promise breakers, or who do anything else that contradicts the wholesome teaching 11 that comes from the glorious Good News entrusted to me by our blessed God.

What in there is impossible to keep with the Holy Spirit on the inside & the Word for us to consume & prayer at our disposal - an actual meeting with God?

Paul wrote God will judge all,

  1. Acts 24:25
    • New International Reader's Version
      Paul talked about how to live right. He talked about how people should control themselves. He also talked about the time when God will judge everyone. Then Felix became afraid. "That's enough for now!" he said. "You may leave. When I find the time, I will send for you."
    That is a distortion on what Jesus actually came to do. It is prophesied a few times in the old testament. In Ezekial 11

26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



Paul wrote in Romans (this concerning the scripture law not making perfect)
Amplified Bible
For God has done what the Law could not do, [its power] being weakened by the flesh [ the entire nature of man without the Holy Spirit]. Sending His own Son in the guise of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, [God] condemned sin in the flesh [ subdued, overcame, deprived it of its power over all who accept that sacrifice],
Romans 8:2-4 (New International Reader's Version)2 I am now controlled by the law of the Holy Spirit. That law gives me life because of what Christ Jesus has done. It has set me free from the law of sin that brings death. 3 The written law was made weak by our sinful nature. But God did what the written law could not do. He made his Son to be like those who have a sinful nature. He sent him to be an offering for sin. In that way, he judged sin in his Son's human body. 4 Now we can do everything the law requires. Our sinful nature no longer controls the way we live. The Holy Spirit now controls the way we live



again in Romans for those who say grace means free is a definition ( foolishness many things are free )

King James Version (KJV)




14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#57
#57
francina i am all for grace and i understand it in the fullest sense, we will always fall short, but just giving into it is an abuse of grace as God has empowered us to overcome.
In revelations it is mentioned a few times "to those who overcome" overcome what?? the evil one leading one a astray?? We might not reach full perfection here but we press on coming to the cross daily, to Jesus to strengthen, guide and teach us His ways

Jesus says not all who call me Lord shall enter, so not all are OSAS?? 10 virgins parable there for a good reason, to me it shows "dont abuse the grace and mercy given at such a high price, blood of Jesus"
 
L

livingbygrace

Banned
#58
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
0
#58
francina said:
The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who practice homosexuality, or are slave traders,[c] liars, promise breakers, or who do anything else that contradicts the wholesome teaching 11 that comes from the glorious Good News entrusted to me by our blessed God.


14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Click to expand...

I thing Rom 6:14 is one of the most powerful verses of truth in the NT

But can I ask you something?

What happens if a new convert reads your above scripture concernihg the law?

They aassuredly must have become saved by faith, but what if they look at that passage and say

Well I know I am under grace as long as I am not sexually immoral, do not practice homosexuality, do not lie, etc

Therefore if they have that mindset are they living under grace? For in effect they believe salvation depends on keeping the requirements of the law you have highlighted

Wouldn't that mean they are in effect under law?
 
Last edited:
L

Lecrae

Guest
#59
#59
trust_in_the_name said:
Salvation isn't by works, so none of these things are going to save you. The only thing that will save anyone is believing God through the scriptures. That means you have to believe everything the scriptures say.

Once saved does not mean always saved. If we turn away from the faith to a life of sin, we are no longer saved. However, if we turn back to God, confessing our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us.
Click to expand...
Here's my issue with the philosophy that you can lose your salvation:

If gaining salvation isn't by works, why would you be able to lose it by works? That seems like a double standard.

What constitutes as "bad enough" to lose your salvation? There has to be a line drawn somewhere, and if somebody was just 'cutting the edge' of that line, wouldn't that mean he's keeping his salvation by works? I'm not saying he received his salvation by works, but he's keeping it by works (in the scenario of losing salvation, anyways). That doesn't seem like a true gift to me if I'm not able to keep it. It's like saying my parents gave me a bike for my birthday as a gift, but I won't be able to keep it if I don't ride an accumulative of 70 miles a week on it. Gifts don't come with catches, so why should salvation come with a catch?
 
F

francina

Guest
#60
#60
lbg
grace is empowerment not license. the holy spirit is 'the spirit of grace'. whereby we are able to overcome the works of the flesh. if any man hath not the Spirit , he does not belong to God. Nothing about God is passive, faith is not passive (faith without works is dead) love is not passive (how could one see their brother or sister in need & having the means to help say - may God bless you, be warmed & be filled: let us not love in word but in deed) grace is not passive-
11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
15 These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.



to the other question, the message of grace is distorted so one will have problems with many scriptures, as did Martin Luther, who wanted to rid the bible of many passages & the whole letter of Jude.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.