Once saved always saved ?

[eternally-gratefull]

Eternally grateful,
I don't think that anyone here, with the possible exception of PBUH (not sure where he is coming from), thinks that salvation is earned or kept on the basis of works. I think we would probably all agree that works are the fruit of repentance, not the means of justification. The issue is whether it is possible for a person to truely recieve Christ and then depart from Him. " 'Now the just shall live by faith; but if anyone draws back, my soul has no pleasure in him.' But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul." It is those who continue in faith, who continue in the grace of God, that are saved. Why does the Scripture warn against drawing back if it is not possible to do so?

It was belief minus faith.

You seem to make a distinction between faith and belief. Can you please explain this. I have always seen them as synonymous.

As for one believing and then departing. I Think 1 John speaks directly at this. (This site was at least for me down all day yesterday, so I will read the rest of the posts to see if this was spoken of before I speak on it further.

As for belief vs faith.

One can believe something, yet not have faith in it.

If my life is in danger, and someone comes and says he can help. I might believe him, but might not trust him, so I might not do everything he says, because I do not realy trust (have faith) he can do what he says he can do.

Paul spoke to Jews who believed in Christ and his death, But showed they did not trust in this, by attempting to bring back the works of the law, or other works in order to what Paul called "perfect their faith" In other words, they had faith that Christ plus their works were more apt to save them than just faith in Christ alone.

James said anyone who believed does well, Even demons believes. Speaking of those who might believe, but have no faith (your faith is dead, or non existent.

I hope this helps..





Anyway, I am gonna head to church, will look at the rest of the posts when I get back.

 

[ubaiono]

Once you get saved does that mean your always saved ? I ask myself sometimes like Am i evil or do I belong to god or will I even go to heaven.Then on top of that I get these thoughts that tell me why be gods slave.Its really crazy.I don't know how to deal with this.I get shots from all angles ? If I got saved at a young age then walked away.Then came back and started giving effort.Like not doing what I used to do.going to church 3 or 4days a week.Not listening to degrading music.Praying to god.Getting on my knees crying out for help.I did all this at one point.Does this mean that god was working inside of me at one point ?

Hi,
We all know that jesus died for us,the bible says that who so ever believe in him will not perish but have everlasting life,thus God gave us this prescious opportunty not our right so when we stop doing Gods will it means that we are going to loose the opportunity that God gave us.so once you are saved you are required to continue showing your faithfulness to God so as to gain eternal life from God.
THanks.

 

[livingbygrace]

Very few people in here are advocating that we must have works to be saved. Works has nothing do do with our decision to accept or deny Jesus. Salvation by faith alone has become a mantra to some people.

I would hope it may become a heartfelt mantra for all for that is where true victory lies

They repeat it over and over in their heads anytime they see something they disagree with. If the decision to accept or deny Jesus is "works" then by that definition, everyone should be saved, and there would be no one going to hell. We know that not to be true.
Can you further explain


The decision to accept or deny Jesus doesn't have to be a conscious decision. We can make that decision by the way that we choose to live our lives, either by the spirit of Christ, or by the flesh.

I have never heard it said before that the decision to accewpt Christ does not have to be a concious decision


So stop repeating the mantra over and over, and start listening to what people are actually saying.

Well I do hear what people are saying.

Before I reply I would like to ask you. Why do you think so many churches see little of the true power Christ promised? And this would include 'born again' churches who consider themselves well grounded in the word and the truth it contains
Christ said those who follow him would do greater things than he. But according to scripture signs, wonders and miracles CONFIRM the true message being preached
John 14:10-12
Acts 14:3
Rom 15:18&19
Heb 2:3&4

So why do churches that say they stasnd in the inerrant word of God and are considered fundamentalist and believe in the gifts of the spirit see mostly so liittle of the power promised?

I will give you my own opinion.

I can on ly go by the churches (born again churches) I have been to in England. Every one of them believes we are saved by repenting of our sin, asking Christ into our lives as Lord and Saviour and believing in faith this has been done. There is no disagrement on this issue in any chiurches I have belonged to and I guess you would accept it as well
The problem BIBLICALLY SPERAKING is what happens next

Again, in England most 'born again' fundamentalist churches amre mainly filled with those who come from secure, loving backgrounds and therefore come from the more in tellectiually gifted half of society and the more intellectually gifted half of society. I wouldn't know if it is the same in the US
So why would this be?
Well I believe it is because of what happens after a persons initial conversion experiance

Spurgeon quoted Paul in Rom 5:6

While we were yet without strength Christ died for the ungodly
Rom 5:6 and in the book on grace I read of his he kept quoting it throughout the book

So at conmversion a perspon is without strength. They have accepted Christ but are still weak in the flesh and inevitably carry into their Christianity deep rooted sin that needs dealing with
Much sin a person can stop at conversion themselves, sin that has not gripped them tightly in their lioves, but what of the rest?
Somew believe(I have read the comments on cc) that as soon as we are saved there need be no sinning and one person wrote thaty if we sin after conversion we are being driven by the demon in us behind that sin

I do wonder if an alcoholic, drg addict or prostitute would wish to go tlo such a church that preacxhed that upon becoming saved.

TYhe truth is at conversion we are weak and need to grow, we cxannot defeat the sin in us, therefore the law can only stand to condemn us if we focus on it. For upon a sincere(and I emphasise the word sincere) conversion God's good laws that he would have us keep have been written on our hearts and minds by the Spirit meaning that we in our hearts want to live as God would have us live, but we are weak.
The battle for the true convert is not to give up with God for in sincerity they could look to the written ;law and Christ's teachings and balk and wonder how a sinner such as they could ever live acclording to those teachings.
For the TRUE convert who loves God there is only one way for true victory. Not living under law but faith in Christ, it is their ponly hope, and in that hope is victory, glorious victory
But unfortunately in so many churches the law is in effect brought back in and the new convert often leaves the church, crushed.
And this IMO is why churches mainly consdist of the people I have already mentioned and why so many churches lack power

How many Christians ACTUALLY straight after conversion stand on faith? And how many stand on obediance to looking to the written law? Or by striving to be good enough?
I have many years experiance on which to base my opinioons

Biblically speaking we dpo have to die to the law, we do not need the written law anyway it is a mystery to me why Christians insist we ,look to it
As I have said. The good laws of God he would have us keep have been written on our hearts and minds

So in effect someone joins a church and they have not got or ever had a drink problem say, or been one to have affairs, or used great profanity or smoke. Will you tell me that in most churches that in itself does not go a very long way to making someone acceptable?
And the danger is as actually happens that we have a law/works base acceptibility for God according to most churches. Thus all too often the
crushed, blind, downtrodden, lame, oppressed etc will not step foot in a churhc or often leave pretty soon after joining one. Now I am not saying people who have had the problems mentioned do not change, of course it happens but in England I would say it is the exceptrion rather than the rule

I could go on and on with this subject. But before you may think I believew grace is a licence to sin I am a firm believer that it is the only true victory over sin.

But I am afraid I have nevcer heard the full message of grace Paul preached preached in church. I thikn most would be afraid to preach it, fearing people seeing or using gracew as a licence to sin(Jude 4) People did on the NT but it did not stop the true message being preached. I will leave it there for now.

But I repeat ANY church that believes it stands full square on the Gospel sahould be regularly seeing miracles, signs and wonders for there is the power where there is the truth

 

[wakeup]

Greetings jj408,

I believe this topic splits Christians in (2) distinct camps. Me personally I believe that if you think you can loose your salvation, you never had it to begin with. Far too many Christians torture themselves with the fear of suddenly losing their salvation. Salvation is of the LORD. We are just gracious enough to have it bestowed upon us, and once that grace has been bestowed upon us, once we are illuminated to truth by the Holy Spirit we will choose life. The problem with man is that man is hindered from choosing GOD due to the hardness and sinfulness within man. People often in this day and age especially put too much stock in what THEY are able to do in reference to GOD. We need to put more stock in what we CANNOT do in reference to GOD. GOD makes the 1st move regarding salvation, and has made the first move since the beginning of time and actually before, if you wish to delve into the whole election/predestination thing lol.

If someone apostatizes from the faith, they have not endured until the end, and only the elect WILL endure until the end. These ones that apostatize are, and always were goats, they just had a false sense of conversion, probably the victim of hearing a false Gospel. This is why, if we wish to evangelize to the lost that WE GET THE GOSPEL RIGHT!!! and not tell someone a false prosperity Gospel perversion which ends up condemning them all the more. Remember this:

It is the Father who elects, it's the Son who provides the atonement/sacrifice, and it's the Holy Spirit that regenerates and sanctifies. The Father chose us, the Son died for us, the Spirit quickens us. What the One did was eternal, what the Other did was external, and what the Spirit does is internal. If anyone is missing any one of these they are not saved, nor can they be. But rest assured that if you are in the fold you will feel conviction, chastisement, trials, tribulations, but you will always endure and persevere because GOD will always walk with you through trials and tribulations and give you the strength to endure. Remember if GOD is for us, who can be against us.

A laborer in Christ Jesus,
DiscipleWilliam

did not Jesus say, "'come and learn of me''.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why is the word apostasy in the bible? Does anyone know what it means? It means this argument is crazy!

Paul in almost all of his letters stated that those who are born again must do 'works' to corroborate. If it is automatic with true salvation, he would not have to tell those who are truly saved what works they must do. I don't know if you were referring to my statement about Hitler, but I think I stated clearly, that this is what Charles Stanley said in his book. You are trying to support the doctrine & move away from it the same time.

No, Paul did not say they "Must" do works to "corroborate", He said they "Will do works" and this is how you can tell who is born of God and who is not. He never claimed a child of God would be perfect, or do everything right.

As for him telling them what works you state they "must do". Does a Child know everything they should do? Are they not supposed to be trained? Does Paul not state that the corinthian church were children and could not handle meat, but had to be fed milk?

We do not become superchristians the moment we are "born again" we will show a changed life. But we will not know all we need to know. We need to learn to turn from our habits. Learn to trust God in other areas in our life. We need to learn sin areas we do not know are sin. We need to grow in Christ, stop acting like we did before we came to Christ, Stop acting like the world (like everyone else is) this does not happen over night!

And what doctrine am I trying to support and deny? Now I am really confused.

I made the hitler statement because there are some people who believe what I said about him, I am showing you I do not.

Does the fact I do not agree with someone who teaches eternal life is eternal and not conditional that teaches hitler would be saved if he said a little prayer, mean the belief is wrong? Or I am teaching against it?

I was trying to separate myself from the people who believe we can say a simple prayer and continue to live our life any way we want (which Paul states is impossible for those who are truly born of God,) which is the main argument those who believe one must work to have salvation use against my belief.

And also show how they would call me legalistic, yet you call me them. See the difference??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What works are we to do? What works are acceptable in God's sight? What works meet the requirements of His holiness? Do works of the Law? If so, then Paul would not have written as he did that if one is under the Law, then they have been severed from grace.

The works that we are to do are those which God prepared before the foundations of the world were laid that we should walk in them. Notice that we walk in them, not that we do them. The works we do are those that are accomplished in the power of the Holy Spirit, at His leading.

YES! And to even add to this. Paul states if we look to the spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Which means that those who are saved can fall back to their lustful flesh and follow it. While a person who does not have the spirit, has no spirit to follow. Even so, these people can be baptized, go to church, take communion etc etc.

Yet what is the difference? The child of God is following the spirit, Why? Because they have FAITH in God.

where as the non child of God is either doing it to follow a fad (no faith in anything), or doing it thinking it will help in their salvation (their faith is in their works).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How do you think Paul received false revelation?? Can you explain?

Saul Killed Christian because they taught salvation through Christ alone, and took works out of it. He thought Jesus was a fraud. Do you think Jesus was a fraud?

Hi Eternal

That is a bit of twisted logic.

I am not sure what you mean by this..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wait i thought John wrote Revelation.....or are you talking about a revelation?

Yes..lol sorry if you were confused.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Was the Law a covenant?

Simply, when God spoke to the nation of Israel from the mountain, He was making a covenant with them. We were never part of that covenant, because we were excluded by our race.

God has made a new covenant with us, in Jesus Christ. In this covenant, He writes His laws upon our hearts and our minds, and He remembers our sins no more. But the most important part of this new covenant is that everyone will know God, no one will teach others to know Him, because they all will know Him, from the greatest to the least of them.

There is a mind set which is prevalent in church today. It has made faith to be of the written word, works to be as we can see with our eyes, and salvation to be by confession and belief alone. Even worse, the Spirit is left out of the equation, and in fact salvation is by the Spirit of God, and faith is by the Spirit of God, and the works are by the Spirit of God. And the works, what sort are they? Love.

I know that I have posted this scripture often, but here goes again:

Hence, He is able to save forever those who are drawing near to God through Him, because He always lives to make intercession for them.

This sentence came right after we see written in scripture that the Law was useless because it could make nothing perfect.

God has one demand of us, only one. Perfection. Absolute perfection. He does not countenance imperfection of any sort. This is why we abide in Jesus, because He is perfect, and when we abide in Him, we are seen by God in the perfection of Jesus.

In Christ,

Yes! This is why I ask why anyone would think they could ever be "righteous" or good enough to deserve salvation. which a works based gospel teaches.

One must remember, one aspect of the "law" as people call it was obeying the commands. As James says, if you break even the least of the commands, you are found guilty of the whole law.

The law is not just tradition and animal sacrifice.

 

[Israel]

Yes! This is why I ask why anyone would think they could ever be "righteous" or good enough to deserve salvation. which a works based gospel teaches.

One must remember, one aspect of the "law" as people call it was obeying the commands. As James says, if you break even the least of the commands, you are found guilty of the whole law.

The law is not just tradition and animal sacrifice.

And of what law do you speak of?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

VW you have not taken the time to read what I wrote concerning 'works of law'. Those were prophetic in nature, all pointing to the work of Christ, constantly reminding of clean & unclean & pointing to Jehovah as the only true God. If any gentile wanted to become a part of the covenant they had to become Jews & follow all these rituals.
Now, the moral laws were for the whole world as seen in the flood, in the destruction of Sodom & the other 3 cities. It is seen in the fact that prophets were sent to gentile nations telling them to repent from their sins , like Nineveh. As Paul wrote 8 We know that the law is good when used correctly. 9 For the law was not intended for people who do what is right. It is for people who are lawless and rebellious, who are ungodly and sinful, who consider nothing sacred and defile what is holy, who kill their father or mother or commit other murders. 10 The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who practice homosexuality, or are slave traders,[c] liars, promise breakers, or who do anything else that contradicts the wholesome teaching 11 that comes from the glorious Good News entrusted to me by our blessed God.

Which would be every man woman and child on earth. Which was the point Paul was making.

If people could be saved by doing right (the requirements of the law) then we would have had no need of animal sacrifice, Or of the ultimate sacrifice (christ) But no one can be righteous, that is why there had to be animal sacrifice, and why Christ had to the atoning sacrifice for all mankind. because no one can do what is right 100 % of the time (even those who are called Gods children)

Paul wrote in Romans (this concerning the scripture law not making perfect)
Amplified Bible
For God has done what the Law could not do, [its power]

Jesus did two things.

1. He fulfilled the law by never breaking it (he was perfect)

2. As he was perfect (unlike a human priest (see hebrews)) he could give the ultimate sacrifice, The cross.

If I am guilty of sin, I can't die for you to save you, for I need saved myself.

Christ, being perfect could die for all of us, for he was not guilty.

The law is perfection as well as sacrifice and traditional works.

being weakened by the flesh [ the entire nature of man without the Holy Spirit].

Yet Christ had the holy spirit from his baptism till his death. so how could he be without the Holy Spirit?)

. Sending His own Son in the guise of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, [God] condemned sin in the flesh [ subdued, overcame, deprived it of its power over all who accept that sacrifice],
Romans 8:2-4 (New International Reader's Version)2 I am now controlled by the law of the Holy Spirit. That law gives me life because of what Christ Jesus has done. It has set me free from the law of sin that brings death. 3 The written law was made weak by our sinful nature. But God did what the written law could not do. He made his Son to be like those who have a sinful nature. He sent him to be an offering for sin. In that way, he judged sin in his Son's human body. 4 Now we can do everything the law requires. Our sinful nature no longer controls the way we live. The Holy Spirit now controls the way we live



again in Romans for those who say grace means free is a definition ( foolishness many things are free )

King James Version (KJV)




14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Yes, but do you understand what this means?

When a parent tells a child do not do something, what does the childs flesh do? It is empowered to want to do what the parent said no. why? Because he is tempted.

But what happens when nothing is said about it? There is no temptation. Thus no desire, or temptation, or will to do what brings death. This is what Paul meant when he said :

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

This is what he meant, Before the law, he had no desire, After the law, he had desire.

Those who put themselves under law, put themselves at risk, because desire flows from law. Those under grace are not under law. Thus the desire is taken away, and the law is powerless. (yet this does not mean a christian will not sin, It means he will not be powered or enslaved by sin)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here's my issue with the philosophy that you can lose your salvation:

If gaining salvation isn't by works, why would you be able to lose it by works? That seems like a double standard.

What constitutes as "bad enough" to lose your salvation? There has to be a line drawn somewhere, and if somebody was just 'cutting the edge' of that line, wouldn't that mean he's keeping his salvation by works? I'm not saying he received his salvation by works, but he's keeping it by works (in the scenario of losing salvation, anyways). That doesn't seem like a true gift to me if I'm not able to keep it. It's like saying my parents gave me a bike for my birthday as a gift, but I won't be able to keep it if I don't ride an accumulative of 70 miles a week on it. Gifts don't come with catches, so why should salvation come with a catch?

Excellent point!

The problem with their teaching is what is the cut-off line? Who would make it and who would not? Yet this is exactly what the law states. The cut-off line is perfection. Anyone who "falls short" of this line is guilty, which would be everyone except Christ. there is no "more guilt" or "less guilt" in salvation (there is not a grading curve) there is guilty or not guilty.

Those who have Christ are guilty in the flesh, but not guilty by the spirit.


Rom 8 : 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is alive because of righteousness

Of course it is not our righteousness, but Christ's righteousness in us.

 

[Israel]

Which would be every man woman and child on earth. Which was the point Paul was making.

If people could be saved by doing right (the requirements of the law) then we would have had no need of animal sacrifice, Or of the ultimate sacrifice (christ) But no one can be righteous, that is why there had to be animal sacrifice, and why Christ had to the atoning sacrifice for all mankind. because no one can do what is right 100 % of the time (even those who are called Gods children)



Jesus did two things.

1. He fulfilled the law by never breaking it (he was perfect)

2. As he was perfect (unlike a human priest (see hebrews)) he could give the ultimate sacrifice, The cross.

If I am guilty of sin, I can't die for you to save you, for I need saved myself.

Christ, being perfect could die for all of us, for he was not guilty.

The law is perfection as well as sacrifice and traditional works.



Yet Christ had the holy spirit from his baptism till his death. so how could he be without the Holy Spirit?)



Yes, but do you understand what this means?

When a parent tells a child do not do something, what does the childs flesh do? It is empowered to want to do what the parent said no. why? Because he is tempted.

But what happens when nothing is said about it? There is no temptation. Thus no desire, or temptation, or will to do what brings death. This is what Paul meant when he said :

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

This is what he meant, Before the law, he had no desire, After the law, he had desire.

Those who put themselves under law, put themselves at risk, because desire flows from law. Those under grace are not under law. Thus the desire is taken away, and the law is powerless. (yet this does not mean a christian will not sin, It means he will not be powered or enslaved by sin)

By your own words, is not a gay man saved, though remaining to be gay?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

lbg
grace is empowerment not license.

A Licentious person makes it a license. No one here is stating it is a license. Which is what I tried to explain earlier (the hitler statement)

Grace is unearned. What we believe is we will never earn salvation, why? Because we will continue to fail and sin. we would be foolish to say otherwise.

If we could stop sin, we would no longer need grace.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

salvation is freedom from sin , freedom from sin or holiness has it's reward which is eternal life.

Salvation is freedom from the PENALTY of sin. The penalty is removed and we are saved from wrath.


If Salvation was freedom from sin, A saved person would never sin again, which is not the case.

Freedom of sin has its reward, For those who are saved:

1. blessing of not suffering the painful results ALL sin bring (which is why God says no)
2. Freedom for God to bless us on earth
3. future rewards in heaven.

And please not, a non saved person can stop sin, and not receive the second two of these rewards. Their only reward is still condemnation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The issue is not works; it is abiding in Christ. "If anyone does not abide in me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

1 cor 3: 9 - 15;
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Notice, the one who's reward was burnt (by fire) was still saved, Even though as through by fire. It is as if the person walked through fire, was burnt, but still made it out alive.

This is what you are speaking of. Not losing salvation. losing reward. A non believer has no reward to lose, on earth or in heaven. ALl they have is condemnation.

" (Jn 15:6) If we abide in Christ, good works are the natural fruit of that relationship. If we do not abide, how can we expect to recieve the salvation that is in Him? "But he who endures to the end will be saved." (Matt 24:13)

12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him, He also will deny us. (answered by john, if we deny him, we were never saved!)

13 If we are faithless, (sin) He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself. (his promise of eternal life to all who have faith in him.)

He who endures till the end, Is speaking to those in great tribulation who endure great hardship and persecution. He who endures until the return of Christ will be saved out of tribulation. This is nopt speaking of salvation.

Without doubt, salvation is by grace through faith. But as with any gift, we must handle it correctly to keep it. A father may give his son a car; whether it is still roadworthy in six months depends on how the son handles it.

In this case, the car was not a gift, it was given with a set of rules. If yu do this, you can keep it and it is your reward because you earned it. If you do not, I will take it back, because you did not earn it.

A gift is given with no rules or requirements. it is given asking for nothing in return. otherwise it is no gift at all.

As to where the line is, the issue is whether or not you are in Christ and He is the only one who is fit to make that judgement.

Yet he did give the requirement. The law. You either fulfill it (be perfect) are you are judged by the law as guilty.

When I die and stand in front of Christ. I will never in my life have been good enough to earn salvation, or deserve it, I stand fully deserving eternal damnation. From the moment I was born till the day I died,

Again I ask. how could anyone think they could be good enough to deserve salvation? This was the error of the jews. and why they could not see their messiah when he came.

 

[livingbygrace]

When a parent tells a child do not do something, what does the childs flesh do? It is empowered to want to do what the parent said no. why? Because he is tempted. [/b]

But what happens when nothing is said about it? There is no temptation. Thus no desire, or temptation, or will to do what brings death. This is what Paul meant when he said :

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

This is what he meant, Before the law, he had no desire, After the law, he had desire.

Those who put themselves under law, put themselves at risk, because desire flows from law. Those under grace are not under law. Thus the desire is taken away, and the law is powerless. (yet this does not mean a christian will not sin, It means he will not be powered or enslaved by sin)

You have an understanding of this that few have and I am heartened to read what you have written

You have quoted the right verses indeed to explain WHY we must die to the law and live by faith in Christ
Sin used the law to condemn Paul
Before the law came to Paul he felt alive but once the commandment came sin sprang to life and he died, and the very commandment that was intended to bring life instead condemned him. The commandment itself was holy and good, but sin used that which was good to arouse all kinds of covetous desire in Paul and condemn him

I have a grandson. In our home I have a computer room. There are six things he must not touch in that room, one of which is the telephone. When he came to visit us(he was two) he would go in the room and his hand would hover over the phone and he stared hard at me. There is an allure/excitement in doing what we know is wrong iut is basic human nature.
If my grandson did not know it was wrong according to my rules to touch the phone he would at times be drawn to it BUT THE ALLURE WOULD NOT BE SO GREAT. He went for the other things he must not touch as well BTW

And so it is when we become Christians, if we look to the law and strive to obey it as a CONDITION of gaining entry into Heaven, Biblically we must become worse sinners. For then eternal life depends on obediance to the law.
But it is at that moment when the true and sincere Christian realises that the law/sin can never condemn them if they are looking to Christ and trusting him that the sin and the grip of sin in their life starts to decrease. Because sin/satan uses the law to condemn man
And this is the problem in so many churches. They do not preach that as soon as you are saved you stand by FAITH in Christ, you are given a list of what you must and mustn't do as a Christian
So inevitably the convert is not standing and concentrating on faith in Christ, but all to often striving to be good enough. What happened in the Galatian church happens all too often today

And the TRUE convert could NEVER use such grace as a licence to sin. The good laws of God he would have us keep have been written on our hearts and minds by the spirit, which means thst in our hearts we want to live as God would have us live. The true convert after conversion will feel it acutely every time they fail, but their battle is not to listen to the voice inside of them that tells them they are too unworthy/not good enough for God, but rather to look to Christ and trust him, standing on their one and only righteousness for Heaven, faith in Christ who loved them and gave himself for them
And they will find that this way sin will NOT BE THEIR MASTER FOR THEY ARE NOT UNDER LAW BUT UNDER GRACE. If only the churches fully understood and dared to preach this fully. There would then become a true CROSS SECTION of society in the churches and not predominantly from one section of society
Paul said
Obediance comes from faith
Rom 1:5
And
Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law
Rom 3:31
And that IMO is one of the most underused and explained verses in the Bible
We are to die to the law, we are not under the law, and it is in that knowledge that sin will have no power over us to control us
In Rom 7 Paul was relating to his life under the law, he said he was a slave to sin, but in the next chapter he spoke very differently concerning sin and how we must not live according to the flesh, for then Paul was free
Paul was shipwrecked, stoned, hounded by the Jews BECAUSE OF THE LAW he received the 39 lashes five times but he endured it all and was a happy man, why?
Because he had been set free in Christ Jesus from that which condemned him, the law.

And this is the TRUE OFFENCE OF THE CROSS Gal 5:11. It was two thousand years ago and it is the same now.
Why?

Not having a righteousness of my own(self righteousness) that comes from the law but that which is by faith in Christ, the rigfhteousness that comes from God and is by faith
Phil 3:9

I am speaking here of the new convert, not someone mature in the faith. The sin of the new convert must be viewed very differently from the wilfull, deliberate sin of someone who has been set free of such sin by faith in Christ. They must still live by faith but to wilfully deliberately sin when a person has been set free of such sin by Christ is very different from a person who is looking to Christ and trusting him to free them of such sin which has dominated their life before conversion

As I said at the begining, not many understand and accept what you know to be the truth, proclaim it to the crushed, lame, blind, broken, those in despair, oppressed, and if they ONLY TRULY were told it and believed it they would be fred also

 

[eternally-gratefull]

By your own words, is not a gay man saved, though remaining to be gay?

Is A liar saved? is one who covets saved? Is one who is proud saved? is a sinner saved? can you be free of sin (sinless)? even if your saved?

The question should not be, are they saved, the questions should be,m can they be healed, can a liar be healed, can a covetor be healed, can a sinner be healed. And the answer will be yes.

I know, I have seen it. It took awhile for the "habit" to be broken. But I have seen healing. I have also seen some who died before healing took place. Do I think they were saved? Yes, because other areas of their life changed, And they showed works. They just struggled breaking their "habit" because the flesh was strong, and died before they overcame.

Am I going to say they were not saved because they struggles with one sin habit? NO! neither should anyone!.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You have an understanding of this that few have and I am heartened to read what you have written

You have quoted the right verses indeed to explain WHY we must die to the law and live by faith in Christ
Sin used the law to condemn Paul
Before the law came to Paul he felt alive but once the commandment came sin sprang to life and he died, and the very commandment that was intended to bring life instead condemned him. The commandment itself was holy and good, but sin used that which was good to arouse all kinds of covetous desire in Paul and condemn him

I have a grandson. In our home I have a computer room. There are six things he must not touch in that room, one of which is the telephone. When he came to visit us(he was two) he would go in the room and his hand would hover over the phone and he stared hard at me. There is an allure/excitement in doing what we know is wrong iut is basic human nature.
If my grandson did not know it was wrong according to my rules to touch the phone he would at times be drawn to it BUT THE ALLURE WOULD NOT BE SO GREAT. He went for the other things he must not touch as well BTW

And so it is when we become Christians, if we look to the law and strive to obey it as a CONDITION of gaining entry into Heaven, Biblically we must become worse sinners. For then eternal life depends on obediance to the law.
But it is at that moment when the true and sincere Christian realises that the law/sin can never condemn them if they are looking to Christ and trusting him that the sin and the grip of sin in their life starts to decrease. Because sin/satan uses the law to condemn man
And this is the problem in so many churches. They do not preach that as soon as you are saved you stand by FAITH in Christ, you are given a list of what you must and mustn't do as a Christian
So inevitably the convert is not standing and concentrating on faith in Christ, but all to often striving to be good enough. What happened in the Galatian church happens all too often today

And the TRUE convert could NEVER use such grace as a licence to sin. The good laws of God he would have us keep have been written on our hearts and minds by the spirit, which means thst in our hearts we want to live as God would have us live. The true convert after conversion will feel it acutely every time they fail, but their battle is not to listen to the voice inside of them that tells them they are too unworthy/not good enough for God, but rather to look to Christ and trust him, standing on their one and only righteousness for Heaven, faith in Christ who loved them and gave himself for them
And they will find that this way sin will NOT BE THEIR MASTER FOR THEY ARE NOT UNDER LAW BUT UNDER GRACE. If only the churches fully understood and dared to preach this fully. There would then become a true CROSS SECTION of society in the churches and not predominantly from one section of society
Paul said
Obediance comes from faith
Rom 1:5
And
Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law
Rom 3:31
And that IMO is one of the most underused and explained verses in the Bible
We are to die to the law, we are not under the law, and it is in that knowledge that sin will have no power over us to control us
In Rom 7 Paul was relating to his life under the law, he said he was a slave to sin, but in the next chapter he spoke very differently concerning sin and how we must not live according to the flesh, for then Paul was free
Paul was shipwrecked, stoned, hounded by the Jews BECAUSE OF THE LAW he received the 39 lashes five times but he endured it all and was a happy man, why?
Because he had been set free in Christ Jesus from that which condemned him, the law.

And this is the TRUE OFFENCE OF THE CROSS Gal 5:11. It was two thousand years ago and it is the same now.
Why?

Not having a righteousness of my own(self righteousness) that comes from the law but that which is by faith in Christ, the rigfhteousness that comes from God and is by faith
Phil 3:9

I am speaking here of the new convert, not someone mature in the faith. The sin of the new convert must be viewed very differently from the wilfull, deliberate sin of someone who has been set free of such sin by faith in Christ. They must still live by faith but to wilfully deliberately sin when a person has been set free of such sin by Christ is very different from a person who is looking to Christ and trusting him to free them of such sin which has dominated their life before conversion

As I said at the begining, not many understand and accept what you know to be the truth, proclaim it to the crushed, lame, blind, broken, those in despair, oppressed, and if they ONLY TRULY were told it and believed it they would be fred also

This reminds of something Paul said. Especially for new believers,

"All things are lawful (I can not be condemned anymore by the law) But not all things are profitable.

In other words, A person in Christ realizes that although I can still lie, cheat steel, have sex outside of marriage, and can no longer be condemned by doing these things, as it was paid for by Christ on the cross. There is a reason God says we should stand clear of doing these things (they cause harm, damage and possible destruction to my being, my personal life, my relationship with God, and those around me) thus although I might get that momentary "high" or "joy" from doing this thing my flesh so badly wants to do. I realize doing so will not profit (give me the reward) I am looking for, but will in the long term do more damage. And thus we turn from sin not because God said no, But because we realize God does not want us to do this because of the harm it will cause to us and those around us. He wants what is better.

As you said, under law all we see is our failure (or in the case of the proud, how good they are compared to "sinners" thus they must be alright with God, (Thank God I am not like the drugy, the prostitute, the homosexual etc etc) when in doing so, like the pharisees, they could not see their own sin was damaging them, because they were to busy looking at everyone elses. It made them feel good (I am not so bad)

A person of faith does not compare themselves with others. They see their own sin, realize the damage it causes, And looks to the spirit for help, because they realize they can not do it on their own. They also are not afraid to admit their sin to a personal disciple (unlike the legalist who hides their sin for fear of condemnation) and in doing so not only have their personal desire to be healed. But allows God to use others to help them be healed.

 

[Red33]

Once we have been redeemed and forgiven of sin and God builds us up through His word, His grace and fellowship with other believer in the local church through the Spirit, what is the will of God or the next step that God is training us for? Seeing that so many of you like to talk about the law and the commandments, what is the work of the ministry that believers are to be engaged in (Eph 4:12)? What are the good works that we have been ordained to walk in (Eph 2:10) and those that we are to labour and always abound in (1Cor 15:58) and to provoke one another to be an active participant in (Heb 10:24)?