ONCE saved always saved!.

[newbirth]

First, Romans 12:3 does not say that every man is given a measure of faith (meaning unbelievers). If they had faith, they would believe. The word "every man" in Romans 12:3 is in context to only believers. For if you were to read the chapter, it does not split and talk of unbelievers before or after verse 3. The surrounding verses are addressed to believers. How so? 2 Thessalonians 3:2 says, "all men have not faith." For without faith, it is impossible to please Him. In other words, if all men had a measure of faith, then they would be pleasing God in some way by being an unbeliever. But that's not possible. Only someone who comes forth in faith pleases God.

So you came to God on your own? As long as one is exposed to the word they are exposed to faith. That is how we are saved by grace through faith. When one acts on that initial faith....What do they do...repent and be baptised for the remission of sins , acts of faith...Some men reject the word so they get no faith. There are those who believe and are baptised for the remission of sins and thinks that is it and never learn of Christ. So they do nothing.

How do we get faith? By the Word of God. For faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
This is what the Parable of the Sower is all about. Those who receive the Word (i.e. God's Word or the Scriptures of the gospel message) had taken it to heart and repented and accepted Jesus Christ. Some have a deep root in God's Word and they endure persecutions and the cares of this life. Some who do not have root (no faith in God's Word) can fall away due to persecution and or the cares of this life. In other words, some do not endure because of a lack of faith. Remember the verse that says perfect love casts out fear? This is our walk in faith perfected with Jesus Christ.

So what is deep root in God's word? Is it obeying the word? So not doing what God's word says is lack of faith

In other words, a person has a dead faith because they lack faith. Faith to take that step with God in order to get cleansed by Him and to study and trust His Word. Some people try to follow God their own way. But faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. Faith. For by grace are ye saved by faith and not that of yourselves. Not that of yourselves. Not that of yourselves. See. Jesus saves. Not that of yourselves. Grace is a free gift that changes a person so that good works will flow from that true faith. But if a person starts to doubt God, then they can backslide into sin and or even apostasize from the faith. But the foundation of faith is believing and not works. For a person can go thru all the external motions (works) and not be changed inwardly. They can have no real belief or no real faith. They could even be worshiping a false Christ or god of their own imagining.

Normally this is what I call babbling....a person has a dead faith because they lack faith...A person has dead faith because it is without works. That step you are talking about is work of faith....But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. You are saved by grace through faith...not by faith. More babbling...Grace is a free gift that changes a person so that good works will flow from that true faith..Chapter and verse please. God 's word says...

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

.

Second, God ultimately does the good work within the believer. For Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. So if a believer chooses to be unfruitful, backslides into sin and or apostasizes, they are working against the Spirit of God trying to move within their life. For God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. For repentance is what will get a person's heart right with God. Can a person stray away from God after being born again? Yes. They still have free will. But if they are born again, it will be natural for them to allow God to work within their hearts and lives. But salvation is in a person named Jesus Christ. For He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son, does not have life (1 John 5:12). And if a person has Jesus living in them, then naturally Christ will do good works within their life (If a person allows Him).

God gives us the power to become....If faith produces good works/fruit how can one choose to be unfruitful...The fact is you have to abide in him and you have have to do the good works and give hin all the glory, for it it is his gift of the holy spirit working in you that gives you the power
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Jesus here was not promoting salvation by works. He was trying to convince them that He was One with the Father. Big difference, my friend.

Does that change the fact that.....He that believe on Him shall do works as He did?

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

.

Salvation is not by works...but we are saved unto good works ...if we don't do what we are saved for we are either being disobedient, ignorant or misled...

 

[SeaBass]

The Scripture makes it either/or.
"by grace through faith, not of works."

Seabass, there is not room in the universe for 2 saviors -- Christ will not share the stage with you.

The only obedience that saves is obedience to this command:

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved!

There is none other name under Heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. That name is not Seabass!

"understand that I AM he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, AM YHWH; and besides me there is no savior."

"not of works" refer to works of merit and does not refer to doing righteousness....whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God. So faith only advocates are left with the impossible, unbiblical task of trying to find to make a person righteous WITHOUT that person doing any righteousness.

 

[SeaBass]

Hoffco,
what is your verse for "forces"???

Let us not change God's word.

You're constantly changing, adding to, taking from God's word. When you see the word "believe" you automatically add the word "alone" behind it thereby changing God's word.

 

[SeaBass]

SeaBass, I don't see any sign of such membership, for you deny the gospel. The Church of Christ is all who trust Him as Savior, not a denomination.



Eph 2 says not such thing. Man's responsibility is faith alone, "not of works" the text says. Grace is what a man needs who has evil works. Unbelievers (like you) have plenty of evil works, but that is the only kind of works that they have.

Both Paul & James speak of believing/faith being the only thing prior to the unsaved man's justification. James goes on & speaks of how after one is saved, one's works do justify (declare righteous) -- but they do not save.

You have no concept of salvation or SAvior at all. The Savior takes the one who trusts Him and changes his nature so that the saved man may then do good works.

Here in this post you ADDED the word "alone" behind faith when the word "alone" is not there.

John said...whosoever DOETH NOT righteousness is NOT of God. So it is impossible for one to be made righteous/be of God without DOING righteousness

 

[SeaBass]

I read it that those that put their faith in Christ's sacrifice cannot be plucked out of his hand unless they lose faith.
We who are saved are to repent and the fruit of our repentance should show in our deeds and love for one another. We still sin and with the help of the Holy Spirit we deal with sins in our lives and are only made perfect once we are resurrected.
Christians still have free choice and there are those who, for one or other reason, choose after having received this understanding to reject Christ completely.
The folk who reject Christ's salvation after appearing to have truly received it make some of the most formidable atheists.
It is argued that they never truly received it in the first place but I find this hard to believe.

Jn 10:27 those that qualify as Christ sheep are the ones that are faithful in continually hearing and following Christ. And as long as they are faithful in hearing and following Christ, in turn God is faithful to those sheep by not allowing anyone to pluck them out of His hand. Those that quit hearing and following (become unfaithful) no longer qualify as one of Christ's sheep and remove themselves from God's hand.

So salvation has two sides:

1) man's faithfulness to God (as seen by a faithful hearing and following of Christ)
2) God's faithfulness to man (as seen by not allowing the faithful be plucked from His hand)

God did not promise to remain faithful to those that become unfaithful to Him.

 

[notuptome]

Salvation is not by works...but we are saved unto good works ...if we don't do what we are saved for we are either being disobedient, ignorant or misled...

Very good we are indeed saved by grace. Since it is God's Holy Spirit that now produces fruit or good works in the believer by what authority do you interject yourself into the equation? Who are you to judge what God is doing in the life of a believer? Is it not God's purpose to use each soul as He deems right?

When one sets out on the path of judging others they cannot escape forfeiting their joy in and for other Christians. Have you ever rejoiced over a single soul receiving Christ? Must you always grind every soul into powder with your endless list of things they must do to satisfy your preconceived notion of what a Christian does?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Jn 10:27 those that qualify as Christ sheep are the ones that are faithful in continually hearing and following Christ. And as long as they are faithful in hearing and following Christ, in turn God is faithful to those sheep by not allowing anyone to pluck them out of His hand. Those that quit hearing and following (become unfaithful) no longer qualify as one of Christ's sheep and remove themselves from God's hand.

So salvation has two sides:

1) man's faithfulness to God (as seen by a faithful hearing and following of Christ)
2) God's faithfulness to man (as seen by not allowing the faithful be plucked from His hand)

God did not promise to remain faithful to those that become unfaithful to Him.

Poppycock! God is eternally faithful especially when man is not. God is not capricious where He loves a soul one moment and then turns around and condemns that soul a moment later. God is steadfast and true. God never abandons His children to the adversary.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

Poppycock! God is eternally faithful especially when man is not. God is not capricious where He loves a soul one moment and then turns around and condemns that soul a moment later. God is steadfast and true. God never abandons His children to the adversary.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

No verse says God will remain faithful and save one who becomes unfaith, unrighteous. God does not abandon Christians, Christians turn and leave God.

 

[newbirth]

Poppycock! God is eternally faithful especially when man is not. God is not capricious where He loves a soul one moment and then turns around and condemns that soul a moment later. God is steadfast and true. God never abandons His children to the adversary.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yes he is eternally faithful according to His word..but man is full of deceit..If you don't abide in him you cannot receive the promises.
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

[notuptome]

No verse says God will remain faithful and save one who becomes unfaith, unrighteous. God does not abandon Christians, Christians turn and leave God.

You are judging God to be no better than man. God is not fickle. god also know the heart of man better than man knows himself. Agape love transcends all of man's imperfection.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[newbirth]

Very good we are indeed saved by grace. Since it is God's Holy Spirit that now produces fruit or good works in the believer by what authority do you interject yourself into the equation? Who are you to judge what God is doing in the life of a believer? Is it not God's purpose to use each soul as He deems right?

When one sets out on the path of judging others they cannot escape forfeiting their joy in and for other Christians. Have you ever rejoiced over a single soul receiving Christ? Must you always grind every soul into powder with your endless list of things they must do to satisfy your preconceived notion of what a Christian does?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

If the HS produces fruit /good works ..then what is the purpose of faith...and for what purpose James is saying faith without works is dead? The HS gives you power to do good works and bear fruit....else he would not say ...
[SUP]
3 [/SUP]According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[SeaBass]

You are judging God to be no better than man. God is not fickle. god also know the heart of man better than man knows himself. Agape love transcends all of man's imperfection.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You're judging God to meet your standards that God will be faithful no matter what man does. Yet the bible does not teach your standard.

 

[secularhermit]

@ ONCE saved always saved!. @


Absolutely, Richie!

That reminded me that, "once married, I' m always married" it doesn' t matter I cheated or was cheated on. Once I' m married, I could stare at any woman to woo, because I' m eternally married and "absolutely" saved -at convenience- in a love relationship that cannot be quenched because IM MARRIED to the one I'm emotionally and legally divorced.

That is a LIE many are still chewing!

 

[notuptome]

If the HS produces fruit /good works ..then what is the purpose of faith...and for what purpose James is saying faith without works is dead? The HS gives you power to do good works and bear fruit....

The chief end of man is to glorify God.

All God asks of us is that we yield ourselves to Him. We can do no good thing of our own. Why do you not allow the Holy Spirit to lead and guide you into His truth? You cannot take a wrong understanding of James 2:20 and expect the Holy Spirit to bless it. When the heart is right then the hands and feet will move in accordance with God's will. It all rests upon a right heart with God. God's grace imputes righteousness and gives strength to live for the Lord. There are many who will claim to be the Lords by virtue of their many marvelous works yet they do not know the Lord as Savior and will be sent into everlasting condemnation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

You're judging God to meet your standards that God will be faithful no matter what man does. Yet the bible does not teach your standard.

You violate God's character. God is merciful in that He does not render unto man what man deserves. All men deserve condemnation yet God because He loves even the most vile and unlovable of men He offers grace to the who so ever wills. Gods standard is absolute perfection to which no man can attain yet by grace God deems those who trust in Christ to have attained. 2 Corinthians 5:21

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Jason0047]

Salvation is not by works...but we are saved unto good works ...if we don't do what we are saved for we are either being disobedient, ignorant or misled...

First, I will say it again. I am not teaching we can disobey God. So please stop writing back as if that is what I believe. Works are necessary part of identifying a true faith. Works is just evidence that God lives within a person. For example: For we know according to the Scriptures that a believer at some point will have the Holy Spirit. If this is true, then you will have the fruits of the Spirit which are talked about in Galatians chapter 5. Love is one of these major fruits. Fruits are works. These are not a list of fruits of the believer.

Second, I believe works flow out of salvation for every true faith that is rooted in the Word. Meaning works will always follow salvation but those works do not save in and of themselves. For the source of our salvation is a person named Jesus Christ. For He that has the Son has life, and He who does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12). For who was more justified before God in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee? The Tax Collector who cried out to God to have mercy on him in being a sinner? Or was it the Pharisee who was overly self righteous (puffed up like leavened bread) and thought he was better than everyone else? (See Luke 18:9-14).

Third, I believe I am not saved by works because God does the "good work" within me and that these works flow within my life from Him having saved me. If these works are not present in my life, then I need to examine myself and or get my heart right with God thru repentance (See 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9, 2 Corinthians 7:9, 10, 11); This way works will then flow within my life. But you believe works do not save you and then you turn around and say you are saved unto good works as if they do save you. This is a contradictory statement. Either works (in and of themselves) save you or they don't save you. Which is it?

 

[Jason0047]

Very good we are indeed saved by grace. Since it is God's Holy Spirit that now produces fruit or good works in the believer by what authority do you interject yourself into the equation? Who are you to judge what God is doing in the life of a believer? Is it not God's purpose to use each soul as He deems right?

When one sets out on the path of judging others they cannot escape forfeiting their joy in and for other Christians. Have you ever rejoiced over a single soul receiving Christ? Must you always grind every soul into powder with your endless list of things they must do to satisfy your preconceived notion of what a Christian does?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

First, while it is true that salvation is not in a "works based program" (Legalism), salvation is also not Antinomianism (i.e. a license for you to sin or for you to not worry about sin), either. How so?

21 "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heedlest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

Second, how can you say you are for the cause of Christ if you are doing evil in His name (i.e. sinning with the idea that you will be saved)?

 

[Jason0047]

Salvation is not by works...but we are saved unto good works ...if we don't do what we are saved for we are either being disobedient, ignorant or misled...

Maybe this short video might help you to understand where I am coming from.

[video=youtube;ThNDxfvb6EQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThNDxfvb6EQ[/video]

 

[SeaBass]

You violate God's character. God is merciful in that He does not render unto man what man deserves. All men deserve condemnation yet God because He loves even the most vile and unlovable of men He offers grace to the who so ever wills. Gods standard is absolute perfection to which no man can attain yet by grace God deems those who trust in Christ to have attained. 2 Corinthians 5:21

For the cause of Christ
Roger

God is merciful to those that obey Him. God is not merciful and faithful to save those that turn from him unto unrighteousness. God, Whose nature is holy, He cannot lie. God has promised to save those that "obey", Heb 5:9 and have vengeance upon those that "obey not", 2 Thess 1:8. God's nature will not allow Him to break these promises He made.

2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The verse ends with the CONDITIONAL 'in Him". It takes a faithful obedience to be in and remain in Christ. Those that become unfaithful and fall away from Christ are no longer in Him.

 

[Alligator]

Maybe this short video might help you to understand where I am coming from.

[video=youtube;ThNDxfvb6EQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThNDxfvb6EQ[/video]

That sounded pretty good until the very end, until he said we are saved by faith alone with no mention of James 2:24 that says just the opposite. Also, his statement that says "we are saved by faith alone but a saving faith is never alone. That is a contradictory statement. It is either alone or it is not alone.