One taken,one left. The rapture.
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FreeGrace2 said:
This is brilliant! Thanks.
And that's the BEDROCK of "rapture" theology.
So your "bedrock" theology has no rocks. No evidence at all. So quit pretending.
It is YOUR theology that has omissions. NO verses showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
So why is it again that you believe such a story?
And there are verses that clearly STATE that the gathering, which you call a rapture, is at the Second Advent.
2 Thess 2:1, Rev 20:5
This is brilliant! Thanks.
And that's the BEDROCK of "rapture" theology.
So your "bedrock" theology has no rocks. No evidence at all. So quit pretending.
It is YOUR theology that has omissions. NO verses showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
So why is it again that you believe such a story?
And there are verses that clearly STATE that the gathering, which you call a rapture, is at the Second Advent.
2 Thess 2:1, Rev 20:5
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"""23 Curse ye Meroz, said the angel of the LORD, curse ye bitterly the inhabitants thereof; because they came not to the help of the LORD, to the help of the LORD against the mighty."""
if you are saying your camp is superior because you " stay and help the Lord, and in the same breath that other positions are cursed", then you need serious help, because you can not defend your position in any systematic way so you resort to abstract weaponizing Gods word against the brethren.
Just grab anything looking remotely changeable for your erroneous doctrine.
pssssst....the devil killed all the apostles, save John.
read the context of the ac, he is given power to OVERCOME THE SAINTS...THOSE LEFT BEHIND.
those left behind are martyrs.
all...ALLLLL take the mark or die.
it says in Gods word "
Revelation 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
See that?
They DIED.
NO, you can not see it.
Any "one dynamic" i bring to the table destroys postrib doctrine.
if you are saying your camp is superior because you " stay and help the Lord, and in the same breath that other positions are cursed", then you need serious help, because you can not defend your position in any systematic way so you resort to abstract weaponizing Gods word against the brethren.
Just grab anything looking remotely changeable for your erroneous doctrine.
pssssst....the devil killed all the apostles, save John.
read the context of the ac, he is given power to OVERCOME THE SAINTS...THOSE LEFT BEHIND.
those left behind are martyrs.
all...ALLLLL take the mark or die.
it says in Gods word "
Revelation 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
See that?
They DIED.
NO, you can not see it.
Any "one dynamic" i bring to the table destroys postrib doctrine.
none of Jesus verses concerning the rapture are war.
That is how very far off you are.
The rapture is the gathering of the bride.
The GT is JACOB'S/ISRAEL'S TROUBLE
Since that is of course, yet another omission of postribs, you have a warped STARTING PLACE.
That is what is going on.
You START WRONG.
You shove RUTH and the foundation of end times COMPLETELY OFF THE TABLE.
YOU ARE GT CENTERED.
I AM BRIDE CENTERED.
THE VERY HEART of heaven and the next major event is in fact the gathering of the bride.
The last words of the bible are the spirit and the bride.
You have departed from that.
You are war centered, religious suffering centered( Catholics climbing some stairway in Italy on their bloodied knees to a shrine) thinking their religious suffering is so Godly.
Postrib rapture and a false religious suffering is in Catholicism.
It is a spirit. False spirit blinding some victims eyes.
That is why you are war and suffering centered.
And why postribs tie in "tribulation" promised to every believer and the "GREAT TRIBULATION" as exactly the same thing.
Error.
So many many errors.
SMH
That is how very far off you are.
The rapture is the gathering of the bride.
The GT is JACOB'S/ISRAEL'S TROUBLE
Since that is of course, yet another omission of postribs, you have a warped STARTING PLACE.
That is what is going on.
You START WRONG.
You shove RUTH and the foundation of end times COMPLETELY OFF THE TABLE.
YOU ARE GT CENTERED.
I AM BRIDE CENTERED.
THE VERY HEART of heaven and the next major event is in fact the gathering of the bride.
The last words of the bible are the spirit and the bride.
You have departed from that.
You are war centered, religious suffering centered( Catholics climbing some stairway in Italy on their bloodied knees to a shrine) thinking their religious suffering is so Godly.
Postrib rapture and a false religious suffering is in Catholicism.
It is a spirit. False spirit blinding some victims eyes.
That is why you are war and suffering centered.
And why postribs tie in "tribulation" promised to every believer and the "GREAT TRIBULATION" as exactly the same thing.
Error.
So many many errors.
SMH
In post 829 I addressed the verses that you claimed to be rapture verses. You didn't respond to the content.
You were asked what your supposed pretrib verses were and you listed this:
Acts 1
1 Thes 4
Mat 24
Mat 25
Rev 14
Rev 19
I explain why they don't even seem to represent a pretrib rapture and you refused to explain further.
Is your premise based on the idea of "Where did the 144,000 saints come from if there wasn't a living rapture?"
Let's make an argument for pretrib rapture:
Was Christ considered to be raptured into the sky after the crucifixion and resurrection? Did those saints that were also resurrected at crucixion also rapture into the sky with Him? Are those the 144,000? It's possible. And if the crucifixion marks the beginning of the end times, this would specifically be an end times pre-trib rapture.
Here's the catch:
Using that premise, you could actually make a great case for pretrib rapture, but there is still nothing that says that the resurrected saints didn't just die again, so a rapture is still a guess at best. There is also nothing stopping the 144,000 from being there in spirit as opposed to being present in resurrected bodies. Consider the fact that John the revelator was present for the events, talking with and seen by individuals on the scene, but he was not there in a physical body ("I was there in the Spirit"). Consider the fact that each of those 144,000 may have also been spirited to that moment from different points in the past in the same way that John the revelator was.
The takeaway:
The presence of the 144,000 in heaven is not evidence that a rapture took place.
You were asked what your supposed pretrib verses were and you listed this:
Acts 1
1 Thes 4
Mat 24
Mat 25
Rev 14
Rev 19
I explain why they don't even seem to represent a pretrib rapture and you refused to explain further.
Is your premise based on the idea of "Where did the 144,000 saints come from if there wasn't a living rapture?"
Let's make an argument for pretrib rapture:
Was Christ considered to be raptured into the sky after the crucifixion and resurrection? Did those saints that were also resurrected at crucixion also rapture into the sky with Him? Are those the 144,000? It's possible. And if the crucifixion marks the beginning of the end times, this would specifically be an end times pre-trib rapture.
Here's the catch:
Using that premise, you could actually make a great case for pretrib rapture, but there is still nothing that says that the resurrected saints didn't just die again, so a rapture is still a guess at best. There is also nothing stopping the 144,000 from being there in spirit as opposed to being present in resurrected bodies. Consider the fact that John the revelator was present for the events, talking with and seen by individuals on the scene, but he was not there in a physical body ("I was there in the Spirit"). Consider the fact that each of those 144,000 may have also been spirited to that moment from different points in the past in the same way that John the revelator was.
The takeaway:
The presence of the 144,000 in heaven is not evidence that a rapture took place.
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In fact, the Bible uses the word "gathering" twice; in Matt 24 and in 2 Thess 2:1. Both are in clear context of the Second Advent.
And, no verse describes Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven, which is the foundation of "rapture theology". So there is no reason to accept such teaching as biblical.
There is NO "rapture" as in Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. So please quit using that unbiblical word. It doesn't exist.
What DOES exist is THE (singular) resurrection of all believers, as 1 Cor 15:23 plainly states which occurs AT the Second Advent. Where those "who are alive and remain" will be "gathered" or "caught up" together with all the dead saints who are with Jesus, and all will receive their glorified bodies. And then will rule/serve the King in His kingdom. Rev 20:5
Your problem is that you are raptured centered even though there are NO VERSES that describe such an event.
And, no verse describes Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven, which is the foundation of "rapture theology". So there is no reason to accept such teaching as biblical.
There is NO "rapture" as in Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. So please quit using that unbiblical word. It doesn't exist.
What DOES exist is THE (singular) resurrection of all believers, as 1 Cor 15:23 plainly states which occurs AT the Second Advent. Where those "who are alive and remain" will be "gathered" or "caught up" together with all the dead saints who are with Jesus, and all will receive their glorified bodies. And then will rule/serve the King in His kingdom. Rev 20:5
Your problem is that you are raptured centered even though there are NO VERSES that describe such an event.
You said: Post #835
"My position with Revelation is that it is at least partly a mystery and the most we can do is test ideas against scripture to see what is 1) necessary or unnecessary, 2) possible or impossible, and 3) compelling or uncompelling
Using that system, it is most important to first determine whether an idea contains a logical contradiction. Scripture is necessarily true, but the interpreted context derived from any particular passage may be fallible. If we can establish a logical contradiction from derived contexts it means our derived context is incorrect. "
Your process of evaluation is called the Straight and Narrow Path to Understanding which many detest as it may crush their doctrinal eschatological presupposed purpose driven right to religious manipulation of the manifestation of truth.
They cannot allow that exposure to be duplicated in the body of Christ and thus removing the shackles of the mind which are bound to religion. Whereby the Holy Spirit Guide is an unwanted Guest and a known Troublesome Departure of the well established and guarded code of analogical misrepresentaion of the prophetic utterances known as Scripture.
Scripture must remain subserviant to said establishment for the corralled protection of sheeple that could go astray with freedom.
I always refer to Deut 4:1-2 , Proverbs 30:1-6 and Rev 22:18 as the Place to stand on before take-off into the Unkown of God.
Long story made short = I like what you said in Post #835 and wish all of God's People applied it to their study.
"My position with Revelation is that it is at least partly a mystery and the most we can do is test ideas against scripture to see what is 1) necessary or unnecessary, 2) possible or impossible, and 3) compelling or uncompelling
Using that system, it is most important to first determine whether an idea contains a logical contradiction. Scripture is necessarily true, but the interpreted context derived from any particular passage may be fallible. If we can establish a logical contradiction from derived contexts it means our derived context is incorrect. "
Your process of evaluation is called the Straight and Narrow Path to Understanding which many detest as it may crush their doctrinal eschatological presupposed purpose driven right to religious manipulation of the manifestation of truth.
They cannot allow that exposure to be duplicated in the body of Christ and thus removing the shackles of the mind which are bound to religion. Whereby the Holy Spirit Guide is an unwanted Guest and a known Troublesome Departure of the well established and guarded code of analogical misrepresentaion of the prophetic utterances known as Scripture.
Scripture must remain subserviant to said establishment for the corralled protection of sheeple that could go astray with freedom.
I always refer to Deut 4:1-2 , Proverbs 30:1-6 and Rev 22:18 as the Place to stand on before take-off into the Unkown of God.
Long story made short = I like what you said in Post #835 and wish all of God's People applied it to their study.
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There is no debate. There is only believing the truth.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15
This scripture teaches us the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.
Do you believe the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming?
again
Ths scripture teaches us that the Lord will destroy the antichrist at His coming.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8
JPT
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The Bible prophesies that "all who take the mark" will end up in the lake of fire, also called the second death. It doesn't say they will die before the end of the Tribulation.
In fact, when Jesus comes back at the Second Advent, and all believers, both dead and living, will receive glorified bodies, it will be ONLY unbelievers who will enter the Millennial kingdom on earth. And Jesus will "rule the nations with a rod of iron".
According to Revelation, approx half of the worlds population will be killed during the Tribulation. So, that should leave about 3 billion people to enter the Millennium.
I believe that only unbelievers will enter the Millennium because at the end of the Millennium, when Satan is released, he wll "deceive the nations" once again. That doesn't support mortal believers being in the Millennium.
And at the end of the Millennium, ALL mortals will be killed. And then resurrected in their mortal bodies to appear before the GWT judgment, and then cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20.
In fact, when Jesus comes back at the Second Advent, and all believers, both dead and living, will receive glorified bodies, it will be ONLY unbelievers who will enter the Millennial kingdom on earth. And Jesus will "rule the nations with a rod of iron".
According to Revelation, approx half of the worlds population will be killed during the Tribulation. So, that should leave about 3 billion people to enter the Millennium.
I believe that only unbelievers will enter the Millennium because at the end of the Millennium, when Satan is released, he wll "deceive the nations" once again. That doesn't support mortal believers being in the Millennium.
And at the end of the Millennium, ALL mortals will be killed. And then resurrected in their mortal bodies to appear before the GWT judgment, and then cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20.
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"""There is no debate"""".
That would require everyone to be on the same page
"""There is only believing the truth."""
Then you post verses both side believe 100% and do nothing to demonstrate or correct your error that YOUR DOCTRINE , NOT TRUTH, has the dead in Christ, raised AFTER the gathering of rev 14.
Your doctrine is NOT AT ALL associated with truth and i have destroyed it over and over.
That would require everyone to be on the same page
"""There is only believing the truth."""
Then you post verses both side believe 100% and do nothing to demonstrate or correct your error that YOUR DOCTRINE , NOT TRUTH, has the dead in Christ, raised AFTER the gathering of rev 14.
Your doctrine is NOT AT ALL associated with truth and i have destroyed it over and over.
However, we know there is just one resurrection of the saved, which will occur "when He comes" (1 Cor 15:23) back at the Second Advent, so there can't be any mortal believers left to populate the planet during the Millennial reign. All believers will have glorified bodies and be serving/reigning with Christ for the Millennium.
This is true. maybe you can walk me through your understanding of Revelation 20? My comments in red:
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. Here the devil is bound, we agree for a thousand years?
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Resurrection for saved people
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Mentions that the second resurrection occurs after the 1000 years. KEY, KEY (compare to other part I type KEY, KEY to)
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. After the thousand years, satan has to deceive someone? Who is it? Keep reading
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. KEY, KEY, This is the issue, those that were deceived by satan cant be those who were resurrected in the second resurrection, because it only happens here, AFTER satan has been destroyed. Do you see my problem friend?
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. Here the devil is bound, we agree for a thousand years?
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Resurrection for saved people
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Mentions that the second resurrection occurs after the 1000 years. KEY, KEY (compare to other part I type KEY, KEY to)
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. After the thousand years, satan has to deceive someone? Who is it? Keep reading
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. KEY, KEY, This is the issue, those that were deceived by satan cant be those who were resurrected in the second resurrection, because it only happens here, AFTER satan has been destroyed. Do you see my problem friend?
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
FreeGrace2 said:
However, we know there is just one resurrection of the saved, which will occur "when He comes" (1 Cor 15:23) back at the Second Advent, so there can't be any mortal believers left to populate the planet during the Millennial reign. All believers will have glorified bodies and be serving/reigning with Christ for the Millennium.
Yes.
Correct.
Yes, the resurrection of the saved is the "first resurrection". And "the rest of the dead" would be all the unbelievers, who will be raised to life back into their mortal bodies, to appear before the GWT judgment, which immediately follows the Millennial reign.
Since believers have been resurrected/glorified bodies at the Second Advent, it would appear that "the camp of the saints" may be where all of them have grouped at the end of the Millennium. I don't see how there can be any mortal believers left. However, if there are any converts during the Millennium, then there's no accounting of how they would receive glorified bodies.
Proving that annihilationism is not biblical.
Not sure. I see the GWT as the resurrection (minus glorified bodies) of all the unsaved. I think v.5 shows that the second resurrection will be of all the unsaved.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
I see two separate resurrections here. One for the saved and one for the unsaved. The saved will be resurrected at the Second Advent, and the unsaved will be resurrected, minus glorified bodies, for the GWT judgment.
btw, the lake of fire is also called the "second death". That makes me think their mortal bodies will be resurrected for the purpose of appearing at the GWT judgment.
This looks like all the unsaved; especially because of the words "death and hell". Jesus emptied Paradise, one compartment of Hades (translated "hell"), so all that would be left would be the unsaved.
I hope I was able to cover all the bases.
However, we know there is just one resurrection of the saved, which will occur "when He comes" (1 Cor 15:23) back at the Second Advent, so there can't be any mortal believers left to populate the planet during the Millennial reign. All believers will have glorified bodies and be serving/reigning with Christ for the Millennium.
Yes.
Correct.
Yes, the resurrection of the saved is the "first resurrection". And "the rest of the dead" would be all the unbelievers, who will be raised to life back into their mortal bodies, to appear before the GWT judgment, which immediately follows the Millennial reign.
Since believers have been resurrected/glorified bodies at the Second Advent, it would appear that "the camp of the saints" may be where all of them have grouped at the end of the Millennium. I don't see how there can be any mortal believers left. However, if there are any converts during the Millennium, then there's no accounting of how they would receive glorified bodies.
Proving that annihilationism is not biblical.
Not sure. I see the GWT as the resurrection (minus glorified bodies) of all the unsaved. I think v.5 shows that the second resurrection will be of all the unsaved.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
I see two separate resurrections here. One for the saved and one for the unsaved. The saved will be resurrected at the Second Advent, and the unsaved will be resurrected, minus glorified bodies, for the GWT judgment.
btw, the lake of fire is also called the "second death". That makes me think their mortal bodies will be resurrected for the purpose of appearing at the GWT judgment.
This looks like all the unsaved; especially because of the words "death and hell". Jesus emptied Paradise, one compartment of Hades (translated "hell"), so all that would be left would be the unsaved.
I hope I was able to cover all the bases.