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It goes deeper than different views as Os Guinness who stayed at L'abri with the Schaeffer family testifies in the link I provided....
"The problem is not so much that Frank exposes and trumpets his parents’ flaws and frailties, or that he skewers them with his characteristic mockery. It is more than that. For all his softening, the portrait he paints amounts to a death-dealing charge of hypocrisy and insincerity at the very heart of their life and work. In Frank’s own words, his parents were “crazy for God.” Their call to the ministry “actually drove them crazy,” so that “religion was actually the source of their tragedy.” His dad was under “the crushing belief that God had ‘called’ him to save the world.” Because of this, his parents were “happiest when farthest away from their missionary work.” Back at their calling, they were “professional proselytizers,” their teaching was “indoctrination,” and it was unclear whether people came to faith or were “brainwashed” and “under the spell” of his parents. Frank’s own arguments in their support, he now says, were a kind of “circus trick.” "
"The problem is not so much that Frank exposes and trumpets his parents’ flaws and frailties, or that he skewers them with his characteristic mockery. It is more than that. For all his softening, the portrait he paints amounts to a death-dealing charge of hypocrisy and insincerity at the very heart of their life and work. In Frank’s own words, his parents were “crazy for God.” Their call to the ministry “actually drove them crazy,” so that “religion was actually the source of their tragedy.” His dad was under “the crushing belief that God had ‘called’ him to save the world.” Because of this, his parents were “happiest when farthest away from their missionary work.” Back at their calling, they were “professional proselytizers,” their teaching was “indoctrination,” and it was unclear whether people came to faith or were “brainwashed” and “under the spell” of his parents. Frank’s own arguments in their support, he now says, were a kind of “circus trick.” "
S
I just want to publicly apologize for being a bit flippant in my post earlier. While i did find it kind of funny that we were debating on a thread where the OPer seems long gone, there could be others with similar questions, and i didnt mean to come off as making fun of someone who is sincerely seeking the truth and may be struggling with THE faith. I hope my apology is taken in the spirit it is given, sincerely from the heart. I do like to kid around, maybe too much at times, but i mean no harm, and i dont want to misrepresent Jesus to anyone who is honestly trying to understand just who He is and what He did for us. Maybe this thread revived for a reason, as there are many who name the name of Jesus but are caught in one form of religious trapping or another, and that doesnt NECESSARILY mean they're not our sisters and brothers in Christ. I know someone who was born into EO, wound up in RC somehow, yet is saved, ... at 80 plus years of age. Praise the Lord! I sometimes find it easier to believe for others than for myself. Father in heaven, thank you Lord for ALL my brothers and sisters in Christ. I pray we all come to a greater awareness of the sufficiency of Jesus Christ alone for our salvation, who said upon His death on the cross for ALL our sins, 'It is finished'. Thank you, Father, ... IT is finished, but obviously I'm not yet.
Thank you for the gift of eternal life in Jesus' name, amen.
(anyone pls feel free to pm me any time. I cant always reply right away, but will do all I can asap. God bless you on cchat. All) Peace in Christ, sydlit.
Thank you for the gift of eternal life in Jesus' name, amen. (anyone pls feel free to pm me any time. I cant always reply right away, but will do all I can asap. God bless you on cchat. All) Peace in Christ, sydlit.
Since they are saints (meaning that the Holy Spirit abides in them, that they are one with God), of course they can hear us.
[h=3]Jesus Prays for All Believers[/h]20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you[e] known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”
The church is called to unity. This unity is done, among other things, through prayers - which are expressions of love.
We are asked to pray for one another in 1 Timothy (read the verses that precede the one you quoted).
We believe that Jesus Christ is the only mediator between man and God because through His both divine and human body, He unites the sky with the earth, God with humans. The church is the body of Christ and in His body we are all unified and brought to God's way of existence.
Read my signature.
[h=3]Jesus Prays for All Believers[/h]20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you[e] known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”
The church is called to unity. This unity is done, among other things, through prayers - which are expressions of love.
We are asked to pray for one another in 1 Timothy (read the verses that precede the one you quoted).
We believe that Jesus Christ is the only mediator between man and God because through His both divine and human body, He unites the sky with the earth, God with humans. The church is the body of Christ and in His body we are all unified and brought to God's way of existence.
Read my signature.
Saints do not become omni hearing as God is able to do. No saint in heaven can hear 1000's of petitions simultaneously. That is Our Mediator's department. You have given me no Scripture in support of your view that we can pray to risen saints or that they hear us, rather only man's reasoning.
Let me give you the Scripture again for my position and hopefully you can reciprocate.
1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Let me give you the Scripture again for my position and hopefully you can reciprocate.
1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Nice text but it has nothing to do with intercessory prayer.
Also, I would guess that you actually pray the Lord's prayer where you are praying to God and not to Jesus. If ONLY Jesus can mediate(your definition) then you are incorrectly praying.
In addition I would suggest that all Protestants cease from praying for others and stop asking others to pray for them. You have a very inconsistent theology.
Also, I would guess that you actually pray the Lord's prayer where you are praying to God and not to Jesus. If ONLY Jesus can mediate(your definition) then you are incorrectly praying.
In addition I would suggest that all Protestants cease from praying for others and stop asking others to pray for them. You have a very inconsistent theology.
I suppose it is interesting that a person can have faith that Mary and the Saints that have passed away can hear and answer prayers.
I was never lead to pray to Mary or any other Saint that has passed on. Only to the Lord Jesus Christ do I pray.
I don't see in the bible where it says that anyone is supposed to pray to Mary or any of the Saints. I don't see in the bible where it says they can answer prayers or pass on information to the Lord.
It seems like one of those things where a religion has placed their tradition over the actual will of God. A diversion, or idol, away from coming to the True and Only God.
You know when someone takes the Lords name in vain or curses themselves really loudly how it makes you feel nervous for them? That's how I feel when people pray to Mary or other Saints. I want to explain it, in a loving way, so they understand but people are stuck in their ways. Its hard enough to humble ourselves before God, I guess we can't expect people to humble themselves before us as well.
Don't pray to Mary, it makes me nervous for you. Don't bow down before statues, it makes me nervous for you. Singing or chanting in Latin makes me a little nervous as well but I can't exactly put my finger on why...
I was never lead to pray to Mary or any other Saint that has passed on. Only to the Lord Jesus Christ do I pray.
I don't see in the bible where it says that anyone is supposed to pray to Mary or any of the Saints. I don't see in the bible where it says they can answer prayers or pass on information to the Lord.
It seems like one of those things where a religion has placed their tradition over the actual will of God. A diversion, or idol, away from coming to the True and Only God.
You know when someone takes the Lords name in vain or curses themselves really loudly how it makes you feel nervous for them? That's how I feel when people pray to Mary or other Saints. I want to explain it, in a loving way, so they understand but people are stuck in their ways. Its hard enough to humble ourselves before God, I guess we can't expect people to humble themselves before us as well.
Don't pray to Mary, it makes me nervous for you. Don't bow down before statues, it makes me nervous for you. Singing or chanting in Latin makes me a little nervous as well but I can't exactly put my finger on why...
Not much to reply to since most of what you are speaking against is the Roman Catholic Church, not Orthodoxy.
But on the one issue that is common is praying to saints. As I stated in the previous post, Protestants should stop asking others to pray for them, at least you would have a consistent theology.
But on the one issue that is common is praying to saints. As I stated in the previous post, Protestants should stop asking others to pray for them, at least you would have a consistent theology.
So, souls are not living? Christ's Church consists of those here on earth and in heaven. We celebrate the Eucharist in heaven with all the saints. Revelations has several listings of prayers of the saints. It is also an act of love to those departed from this life. The prayers of a righteous man availeth much. It is also a total misunderstanding of the meaning of "being in Christ". It is a division of the understanding of the nature of the Church. Christ cannot be divided.
I notice that you understand the negative aspect, but fail to understand the positive aspect.
I notice that you understand the negative aspect, but fail to understand the positive aspect.
S
Not being sarcastic, trying to understand what you mean/believe. When you say the 'only ones' do you mean Christians? Also, who are the saints, and what do you mean by the term invoking them?
I really want to dialog but i need to understand your meaning of these terms so i know where we may agree or not. Thx.
I really want to dialog but i need to understand your meaning of these terms so i know where we may agree or not. Thx.
S
Ok, thx, cassian. I know you have your beliefs, and im sure you know i have mine, tho i have alot to learn. And i know this is not a 2way chat but an open forum, so i hope others add to it. And i dont want to seem confrontational or against you personally, but if you consider all of the above, (catholic, protestant, ortho, etc.) to be christians, then what seems to be the problem? Why are some required to 'invoke' the 'saints' but others dont have to, yet they're all christians? And can it be ANY saints, or is it limited to only certain ones that a subdivision of the over-all 'christian umbrella' has appointed necessary or acceptable to invoke?
Why stop praying for others when it is Biblically sound? Why tell people to stop doing what is so clearly taught in Scripture to do?
James 5:16a
Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed.
Ephesians 6:18
Praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,
1 Timothy 2:1
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,
Colossians 1:9
And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,
1 Thessalonians 5:16-18
Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
Matthew 5:44
But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
1 Thessalonians 5:25
Brothers, pray for us.
Romans 15:30
I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf,
2 Thessalonians 3:1
Finally, brothers, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored, as happened among you,
Matthew 9:38
Therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest.
Colossians 4:3
At the same time, pray also for us, that God may open to us a door for the word, to declare the mystery of Christ, on account of which I am in prison—
Job 42:10
And the Lord restored the fortunes of Job, when he had prayed for his friends. And the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.
Acts 12:5
So Peter was kept in prison, but earnest prayer for him was made to God by the church.
Luke 18:1
And he told them a parable to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart.
Luke 22:31-32
“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”
Job 42:8
Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly. For you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.”
Can any Scripture be given to show we are to pray to dead people, or ask dead people to intercede on our behalf?
James 5:16a
Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed.
Ephesians 6:18
Praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,
1 Timothy 2:1
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,
Colossians 1:9
And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,
1 Thessalonians 5:16-18
Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
Matthew 5:44
But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
1 Thessalonians 5:25
Brothers, pray for us.
Romans 15:30
I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf,
2 Thessalonians 3:1
Finally, brothers, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored, as happened among you,
Matthew 9:38
Therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest.
Colossians 4:3
At the same time, pray also for us, that God may open to us a door for the word, to declare the mystery of Christ, on account of which I am in prison—
Job 42:10
And the Lord restored the fortunes of Job, when he had prayed for his friends. And the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.
Acts 12:5
So Peter was kept in prison, but earnest prayer for him was made to God by the church.
Luke 18:1
And he told them a parable to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart.
Luke 22:31-32
“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”
Job 42:8
Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly. For you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.”
Can any Scripture be given to show we are to pray to dead people, or ask dead people to intercede on our behalf?