Pentecostal/charismatic Discussion/light debate thread
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You base this on a few letters to these churches? My opinion as to why we have these in the scriptures is because we have a picture of what goes on in all the churches.
There are spiritual mature and immature everywhere. Love is what all the other gifts should flow out of. One can speak in tongues, but not speak in the love of God that is of our whole person and what is the empowering!
There's nothing like it on earth.
love you dcon.
There are spiritual mature and immature everywhere. Love is what all the other gifts should flow out of. One can speak in tongues, but not speak in the love of God that is of our whole person and what is the empowering!
There's nothing like it on earth.
love you dcon.
I am most certainly not against tongues, when or if they return there will be no need for these silly debates. Where is your spiritual discernment? Are you so immature in the Spirit to not see that which is labeled tongues today is but a mockery of what was being done in the 1st century?
Just as the Egyptian magicians produced a poor copy of Aaron's rod, so do those of today offer a feeble attempt at mimicking the physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
If you were as sensitive as you claim, you would not have fallen for such a baseless notion.
Just as the Egyptian magicians produced a poor copy of Aaron's rod, so do those of today offer a feeble attempt at mimicking the physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
If you were as sensitive as you claim, you would not have fallen for such a baseless notion.
And what makes you think that the "non-tongue" people have NOT pursued the "gift of tongues"? I have told the story before of how I got involved briefly with the WOW (word over the world) group back in the late 70's. I was surrounded by believers that taught that all believers should speak in tongues. I was convinced. I prayed, diligently for God to allow me access to that gift. I had prayer circles with several of them laying on hands. I truly believed I was going to be given that gift. I was even coached on how to "get started" speaking.
The result? Nothing. No moving of the Spirit, no nothing. I was fully convinced that if tongues were real, God would give that gift to me, but I was also determined that I would in no way "fake it".
Nothing. I was honestly and faithfully seeking, and nothing came of it.
So, don't make assumptions about other folks' journey, and their real, genuine experiences... and the conclusions they draw from those.
The result? Nothing. No moving of the Spirit, no nothing. I was fully convinced that if tongues were real, God would give that gift to me, but I was also determined that I would in no way "fake it".
Nothing. I was honestly and faithfully seeking, and nothing came of it.
So, don't make assumptions about other folks' journey, and their real, genuine experiences... and the conclusions they draw from those.
Personally, I don't know how anyone can fake it. There is discernment of spirits.
It's not tongues we seek, it's Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit has a spiritual language for us all. I'm convinced of this and no matter whether anyone tells me they have diligently sought Him, it comes down to why did you stop? It's the same thing with healing. We see what the Word says, but an experience doesn't manifest when we think it should, get discouraged and accept the lie that God doesn't want us healed.
Where do you see anywhere in scripture to stop believing for the promises? Did Jesus say they are yes, and amen or not?
Whom shall this generation declare? Who will pick up the mantle of Jesus Christ, believe His Word, and take the Kingdom of God for this earth?
My finger points at self as much as anyone else. Am fighting unbelief all the time. Are you? Not speaking personally to you Hornet, but to the body.
Would you operate on earth successfully if your body didn't follow your head? How can Jesus walk through us if His body isn't following His lead?
Theres the story of the unjust judge and the widow. She was desperate...and didn't stop until he got up and gave her what she needed.
I have needs too. But, He who is within me is greater even then my mortal flesh.
There are those hose who are pursuing and moving in the dunamis. Don't reject.
Again, hornet, not so much to you but to the spirit of unbelief that affects even us bought by the precious blood of the sacrificed Son of Father.
I hope you receive the desire of your heart. Take Him!
It's not tongues we seek, it's Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit has a spiritual language for us all. I'm convinced of this and no matter whether anyone tells me they have diligently sought Him, it comes down to why did you stop? It's the same thing with healing. We see what the Word says, but an experience doesn't manifest when we think it should, get discouraged and accept the lie that God doesn't want us healed.
Where do you see anywhere in scripture to stop believing for the promises? Did Jesus say they are yes, and amen or not?
Whom shall this generation declare? Who will pick up the mantle of Jesus Christ, believe His Word, and take the Kingdom of God for this earth?
My finger points at self as much as anyone else. Am fighting unbelief all the time. Are you? Not speaking personally to you Hornet, but to the body.
Would you operate on earth successfully if your body didn't follow your head? How can Jesus walk through us if His body isn't following His lead?
Theres the story of the unjust judge and the widow. She was desperate...and didn't stop until he got up and gave her what she needed.
I have needs too. But, He who is within me is greater even then my mortal flesh.
There are those hose who are pursuing and moving in the dunamis. Don't reject.
Again, hornet, not so much to you but to the spirit of unbelief that affects even us bought by the precious blood of the sacrificed Son of Father.
I hope you receive the desire of your heart. Take Him!
You mistakenly think I have "given up" on the Spirit.... I have not, and never will. The Spirit is within me, and I see evidence of that all the time.
I simply believe that if the Spirit thought I needed some special type of "prayer language", I would have received it. I did not.
Jesus said nothing about miraculous gifts of the Spirit... He simply said we would receive a gift after he went back to the Father, and that gift was the Spirit.
We see through scripture that the Spirit guides us in our walk with Jesus, and also prays for us to God, using the words we cannot even speak.
While Paul talks about speaking in tongues, I see no scriptural evidence that indicates every believer will be given the ability (or necessity) to do that. I don't feel "slighted" in any way.
I simply believe that if the Spirit thought I needed some special type of "prayer language", I would have received it. I did not.
Jesus said nothing about miraculous gifts of the Spirit... He simply said we would receive a gift after he went back to the Father, and that gift was the Spirit.
We see through scripture that the Spirit guides us in our walk with Jesus, and also prays for us to God, using the words we cannot even speak.
While Paul talks about speaking in tongues, I see no scriptural evidence that indicates every believer will be given the ability (or necessity) to do that. I don't feel "slighted" in any way.
A few facts:
1) regular exercise of the gifts of tongues and interpretation did in fact vanish from the third century to the nineteenth century.
2) The nineteenth century movement to restore their exercise in some churches has resulted in confusion and disorder which is explicitly contrary to Scripture. Admittedly this is not true of all churches the movement has produced.
3) The movement has spawned a lot of showmanship that takes attention off God and places it on men. Again this is not universally true of the movement.
4) many people have come and continue to come to Salvation without manifesting any charismatic signs.
Some questions:
1) Can people who believe that these gifts have legitimately revived show evidence that churches that do not exercise these gifts are less effective in serving Jesus than those churches that do?
2)Why did the gifts in question disappear for 1600 years?
1) regular exercise of the gifts of tongues and interpretation did in fact vanish from the third century to the nineteenth century.
2) The nineteenth century movement to restore their exercise in some churches has resulted in confusion and disorder which is explicitly contrary to Scripture. Admittedly this is not true of all churches the movement has produced.
3) The movement has spawned a lot of showmanship that takes attention off God and places it on men. Again this is not universally true of the movement.
4) many people have come and continue to come to Salvation without manifesting any charismatic signs.
Some questions:
1) Can people who believe that these gifts have legitimately revived show evidence that churches that do not exercise these gifts are less effective in serving Jesus than those churches that do?
2)Why did the gifts in question disappear for 1600 years?
Very much agree with you here sister. Very good post!! There is a generation here and coming of believers who will not stop in pursuing by faith the things that are promised to the church. That have been freely given to us.
I've been aware in my life the need to keep pursuing as the seeds of the Word are being planted in my heart. So many of the promises are acquired by faith and these seeds have yet to come to fruition. The enemy uses time and our impatience and our human weaknesses against us and is ever ready to steal the seeds of the Word from us before they have had time to implant deeply rooted in us via faith.
But once we are settled in the word of faith., the Spirit moves and those rivers of living water that Jesus spoke of in John 7:38 comes to pass.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]He who believes in Me [who cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Me] as the Scripture has said, From his innermost being shall flow [continuously] springs and rivers of living water.
It's a way of life that is an acquired process of learning. It's not been a one time process for me. It's a daily learning how to take each issue and apply the same process of faith. And it goes back to Gal.2:20 again and again.
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Hearing the Word... saying the Word... believing the Word.... Hearing the Word., saying the Word...., believing the Word.. Just keep on keeping on in the process regardless of the time passing. Don't be weary in well doing. We keep doing this, take a break come back and do it again and again. The enemy will soon be defeated and flee.
I've discovered that hearing the preaching of the Word in Truth is a major key to seeing the truth come to fruition in my life. If I'm not hearing it over and over I'm soon discouraged by the moment. Since we are part flesh we are still hearing it through our ears and have to make the choice of what we are going to listen to.
It's been to my own detriment to stop hearing and be around things in life that don't encourage the faith. The world is full of a million distractions and a million reasons not to believe. It's my choice how to keep being available to the Word and there are so many ways of being available to the truth. We can hear it now on the TV, radio and on the internet., in our cars we can listen to CDs of the truth being preached and taught. We can hear it listening before we go to sleep at night and when we wake up in the morning.
I've come to see that the enemy counts on us being weary and taking time from hearing. And that is when the Word becomes void., when I stop listening. Isn't it a paradox how easy it is to miss the GIANT answers to our life's problems!!!!
I've discovered that hearing the preaching of the Word in Truth is a major key to seeing the truth come to fruition in my life. If I'm not hearing it over and over I'm soon discouraged by the moment. Since we are part flesh we are still hearing it through our ears and have to make the choice of what we are going to listen to.
It's been to my own detriment to stop hearing and be around things in life that don't encourage the faith. The world is full of a million distractions and a million reasons not to believe. It's my choice how to keep being available to the Word and there are so many ways of being available to the truth. We can hear it now on the TV, radio and on the internet., in our cars we can listen to CDs of the truth being preached and taught. We can hear it listening before we go to sleep at night and when we wake up in the morning.
I've come to see that the enemy counts on us being weary and taking time from hearing. And that is when the Word becomes void., when I stop listening. Isn't it a paradox how easy it is to miss the GIANT answers to our life's problems!!!!
Your first "fact" is at best a hypothesis. No one knows when tongues ceased and no one has proven that tongues have returned.
For your other facts and questions to have merit, the return of tongues (as was practiced during the 1st century) must be proven.
In other words, unless those who practice "tongues" today can prove what they are doing is the same as the true 1st century tongues then further debate is pointless.
For your other facts and questions to have merit, the return of tongues (as was practiced during the 1st century) must be proven.
In other words, unless those who practice "tongues" today can prove what they are doing is the same as the true 1st century tongues then further debate is pointless.
Can anyone "prove" faith? Can anyone "prove" they are speaking in a heavenly language? There must be a willingness to first hear others out and then to learn. There must be a desire for the things of the Lord. If there is no desire for these things than they won't be able to be known. The Holy Spirit will never force us to have the things that are freely ours by faith.
This is how it works..... first we must have faith and THEN we will see. Not the other way around.
This is how it works..... first we must have faith and THEN we will see. Not the other way around.
"This is how it works.....first we must have faith and THEN we will see."
No, joaniemarie this is not how it works. Physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit are not given to us to have faith in but to produce faith in us. Jesus and the Apostles did not tell people to first believe in miracles and then they would produce them. The miracles were meant to be seen as proof of the validity of the bearer of the manifestation.
This is how it works..... when people doubted the words of Jesus as being from God, physical manifestations were given as proof in order to produce faith. Not the other way around.
Just read Matthew 12:10-13, Jesus was surrounded by doubters of His authority, He did not ask them to have faith that the healing could happen but performed the miracle in order to produce faith.
No, joaniemarie this is not how it works. Physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit are not given to us to have faith in but to produce faith in us. Jesus and the Apostles did not tell people to first believe in miracles and then they would produce them. The miracles were meant to be seen as proof of the validity of the bearer of the manifestation.
This is how it works..... when people doubted the words of Jesus as being from God, physical manifestations were given as proof in order to produce faith. Not the other way around.
Just read Matthew 12:10-13, Jesus was surrounded by doubters of His authority, He did not ask them to have faith that the healing could happen but performed the miracle in order to produce faith.
Hebrews 11:1
11 Now faith is the assurance (the confirmation, [SUP][a][/SUP]the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].
This is how it works for the believer. If it doesn't work that way for you than I won't argue the fact.
You are implying that faith is needed to see miracles, this is wrong. Miracles are meant to be seen without faith in order to produce faith in those who lack it.
The example of doubting Thomas is a classic example. Thomas needed physical proof before he would believe. Jesus gave him the proof and Thomas believed. But Jesus proclaimed it is better to believe without sight, hence Hebrews 11:1.
I am not attempting to argue with you, just pointing out an error. Nothing more. Don't take it personal.
The example of doubting Thomas is a classic example. Thomas needed physical proof before he would believe. Jesus gave him the proof and Thomas believed. But Jesus proclaimed it is better to believe without sight, hence Hebrews 11:1.
I am not attempting to argue with you, just pointing out an error. Nothing more. Don't take it personal.