People think you have to keep grace on a leash

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dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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A changed heart. We're seated in heavenly places...apparently something your legalistic system hasn't gotten you.
Nor will it.....funny, by his own doctrine he condemns himself to the proverbial lake-o-fire.......He said he used to believe OSAS an then FELL from it into this legalistic self reliance doctrine of self righteousness and no sin worthy of death......and then turns around and applies the Hebrews text to believers who fall away to condemnation.....blind the whole way.....the only hope he really has is if he actually trusted into Christ when he professed eternal salvation and eternal security.
 

JesusIsAll

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2014
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I have always had one problem with OSAS, this the free will nature of man and our God not one of compulsion. Though nobody can be plucked from the hand of God, can one renounce God? The only explanation one is going to get is, "Well, that person was never really saved." I honestly don't know that, don't know how anybody else knows that as an absolute, only God able to divide the soul and peer into the heart of any individual man. So, I'll leave this life not knowing if any born again did fall of their own volition, and strongly suspecting this could be so. But that said, the notion that some sin is going to separate the believer from God is wholly error, or that the big sins are more damning than the little ones wholly error. Anybody who says they are without sin, even as a believer, is a deluded liar, who doesn't understand their holy God, or even themselves, in relation to that holy God, how shipwrecked they are, if the blood of Christ doesn't cover all sin, past, present and future. You can fancy yourself Mother Teresa on steroids, but, without the blood of Christ at the time you leave this mortal coil, you are just a filthy sinner, dressed in filthy rags. It behooves some people to consider that the self-righteous were the ones our Lord Jesus was absolutely damning of, the most legendary in their own minds the scum of the earth to His mind. Also, this notion that to accept the security of grace by faith is, as if, some sin license is to ignore the Holy Spirit working in the lives of real believers, as if trying to lay on them the concept of grace meaning works perfection moving forward, now that one is saved a need to put the law corpse on our backs and establish our own righteousness: this is a lie from hell, a lie you can't KNOW you are saved, Satan famous as an accuser and purveyor of guilt and doubt. Tell you what, the "holiest" people are often the most evil, in my experience, nasty, arrogant, self-willed, condemning, just the vain, "born again" Pharisees of scripture in our day, not the broken publican the Lord Jesus saves, the meek and poor in spirit the Lord loves.

Isaiah 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

Luke 18:13-14 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

John 13:8-10 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.


All you Mister Holier-Than-Thous? Tell you what, your feet are still dirty. You'd do well not to kid yourself, or others!
 
Mar 14, 2014
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Making a distinction between types of sins is not a "RC thing" it is a bible thing. You guess wrong in assuming that someone that believes what the bible teaches will also accept anything the RC church teaches.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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Making a distinction between types of sins is not a "RC thing" it is a bible thing. You guess wrong in assuming that someone that believes what the bible teaches will also accept anything the RC church teaches.
The bible clearly teaches that if you break one of the LEAST of the commandments you are guilty of the WHOLE LAW....

SO.....what does LEAST mean? SIN is SIN.......!
 
Mar 10, 2015
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No, sir. You are preaching a false gospel. May the Lord temporarily stop you in preaching such evil here. For OSAS clearly teachies and leads people to think they can sin and still be saved. It is pure evil. Good guys can do evil and get to Heaven? Yeah right. Not on God's watch. Yes, a person can repent of their evils and turn from their wicked ways and accept God and be right with HIm, but nowhere does the Bible teach that a person can refuse to repent of their sin and refuse to forake sin and still be right with God. Nowhere. For even you do not believe you did nothing to be saved. You had to do something to be saved unless you believe everyone is saved or something.
Bro, what you describe here is being lost, not OSAS.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Your nothing more than a joke....If your break one of the LEAST of the commandments you are guilty of the whole LAW...there are no sins greater and or lesser than any other sin.......sin is sin and the only reason you erroneously distinguish between the sins is two fold...

1. The truth of sin contradicts your heresy
No, it doesn't. John talks about sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death.

Jesus says the Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law like justice, love, and mercy. Jesus said all manner of sin can be forgiven except the sin of blaspheming the Holy Ghost (i.e. to speak bad against the Holy Spirit). If all sin is the same then surely none of the above verses in Scripture would not exist. But they do.

2. It allows you to think you are so righteous and not worthy of losing the salvation that you erroneously teach you can lose......!
Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:



























And here is a list of potential fallen believers:






  • Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)










  • Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)






  • The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
    (James 5:19, 20)



For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).
 
Mar 14, 2014
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16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

Clearly there are 2 types of sin (at least). Your error is that you equate keeping the law with being sinless.
 
Mar 10, 2015
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No murderer has eternal life abiding within them (1 John 3:15). Suicide is self murder.
Good gracious 1 John 3.15 has zero, zilch to do with suicide. Could you at least list the whole verse, not just take half of it to perpetuate your false teachings.

1 John 3.15 in it's entirety says:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him

Now we will PROPERLY add verses 10-15, which make up the complete context of verse 15 adn the complete thoguht:

1 John 3.10-15
[SUP]10 [/SUP]By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: [SUP][f][/SUP]anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; [SUP]12 [/SUP]not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother’s were righteous.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Do not be surprised, brethren, if the world hates you. [SUP]14 [/SUP]We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

When you use context, you will see that 1 John 3.15 has ZERO, ZILCH, NADA to do with suicide.

Come to full age babe.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Bro, what you describe here is being lost, not OSAS.
Do you believe in any of the deadly seven?

Here are OSAS's Commonly Held Dark Beliefs:

#1. Future Sins are Forgiven.
#2. Sin only leads to Physical Death and Not Spiritual Death.
#3. You can be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved.
#4. Not Confessing one Serious Sin before you die will not Send You to Hell.
#5. Once a Son Always a Son or You Cannot be Unborn.
#6. Sin Cannot break the seal of the Spirit.
#7. We are sinners and nobody can be perfect (and nor can they stop sinning ever).
 
Mar 10, 2015
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No, sir. You are against His Word. I pray the Lord either stops you (In a way for you to rethink what you believe) or shows you the truth on this matter. For can you explain what I had referenced in Scripture by using the context and or other Scripture? My guess is that you are not going to do that.
I just did on 1 John 3.11-15 and it will fly right over your head. The Lord does not stop the truth, he only stops those that spread fertilizer and call it truth.
 
Mar 10, 2015
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I got some news for you Jason: you are going to commit future sin. because knowing to do good and not doing it as sin. and you or me or no one else can 100% guarantee that we will always do what we should do. because if you do not, you have sinned. and you would to confess and ask for forgiveness.
Even the sin of omission is a choice friend.
 
Mar 10, 2015
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Also, true believers will also admit that they may commit unintentional sins or hidden faults that they are not aware of. These are not sins that lead unto death like murdering, hating, lusting, stealing, gettng drunk, and lying, etc.
All sin is a choice.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

Clearly there are 2 types of sin (at least). Your error is that you equate keeping the law with being sinless.
The Jews were cut off because of their unbelief. Today, the same holds true for every other man, too. If someone does not believe the Scriptures on keeping themselves from sin and evil, then they will be cut off because they did not continue in God's goodness.

"For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Hebrews 11:21-22).

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." (Galatians 6:7-8).

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:19-24).
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,023
14,639
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No, it doesn't. John talks about sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death.

Jesus says the Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law like justice, love, and mercy. Jesus said all manner of sin can be forgiven except the sin of blaspheming the Holy Ghost (i.e. to speak bad against the Holy Spirit). If all sin is the same then surely none of the above verses in Scripture would not exist. But they do.



Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:



























And here is a list of potential fallen believers:






  • Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)










  • Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)






  • The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
    (James 5:19, 20)



For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).
Your scriptural references contain people who never were saved to begin with, scriptures out of context and contexts that do not apply unto salvation......the bible teaches the security of the believer...get over it and your false doctrine....Jesus saves to the UTTERMOST, What God does it is ETERNAL, Jesus ever lives to MAKE INTERCESSION, CHRIST finishes that which he STARTED, I am in the Father's hand and in the HAND of Christ and sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT of promise and NOTHING can separate me from that position, including MYSELF as EVERY SIN I WOULD EVER COMMIT WERE paid for 2000 years ago almost when JESUS died unto sin ONCE.......My salvation is secure....too bad you have to work for yours and trust into yourself.......!
 
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Jul 22, 2014
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Good gracious 1 John 3.15 has zero, zilch to do with suicide. Could you at least list the whole verse, not just take half of it to perpetuate your false teachings.

1 John 3.15 in it's entirety says:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him

Now we will PROPERLY add verses 10-15, which make up the complete context of verse 15 adn the complete thoguht:

1 John 3.10-15
[SUP]10 [/SUP]By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: [SUP][f][/SUP]anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; [SUP]12 [/SUP]not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother’s were righteous.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Do not be surprised, brethren, if the world hates you. [SUP]14 [/SUP]We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

When you use context, you will see that 1 John 3.15 has ZERO, ZILCH, NADA to do with suicide.

Come to full age babe.
1 John 3 is talking about the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil. It is essentially saying what Jesus had said. You will know them by their fruits. In this case, John clarifies it some more and says he that does not love his brother abides in death. We know this is spiritual death because John equates hating one's brother as murder. John then says in 1 John 3:15 that no murderer has eternal life abiding within them. If one murders themself it is still a form of murder. How can it not be? Does your choice of target change what that wrong action is called? In other words, when I say that Joe murdered himself yesterday, you perfectly understand that he committed suicide.
 
Mar 10, 2015
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I am up to here with the once saved always saved doctrine nonsense

If a person IS actually saved...according to how the Bible presents salvation, then YES by gum, they ARE


ALWAYS SAVED

38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[SUP]k[/SUP] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8

Now that is how God views a saved person. The are no 'sin' clauses or if, buts cans or maybes

Neither Jason nor anyone else is also included
I am not defending conditional salvation when I say this, because I believe OSAS.

Using Romans 8.38-39 is a poor choice to defend eternal security and always has been. This passage references God's love not salvation.

Paul uses the word salvation 5x in the Epistle of Romans, he uses the term in Romans, 1, 10, 11 and 13.
He also uses the term correctly, see the 2 times he uses it in Romans 10.

Since Paul used the word salvation in Romans 1 and 10, it would see to me that if he was talking about Salvation in Romans 8.38-39 he would have used it. See below for what i am getting at.

clearly Paul was talking about love and not salvation, here is the verse straight out of the Bible
[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, [SUP]39 [/SUP]nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now if Paul was talking about salvation why wouldn't he have wrote this verse this way?

[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, [SUP]39 [/SUP]nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the Salvation of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Here is Romans 1.16:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Now look at Romans 10.10:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The use of Romans 8.38-39 to defend eternal security is not accurate.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
28,875
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I am not defending conditional salvation when I say this, because I believe OSAS.

Using Romans 8.38-39 is a poor choice to defend eternal security and always has been. This passage references God's love not salvation.

Paul uses the word salvation 5x in the Epistle of Romans, he uses the term in Romans, 1, 10, 11 and 13.
He also uses the term correctly, see the 2 times he uses it in Romans 10.

Since Paul used the word salvation in Romans 1 and 10, it would see to me that if he was talking about Salvation in Romans 8.38-39 he would have used it. See below for what i am getting at.

clearly Paul was talking about love and not salvation, here is the verse straight out of the Bible
[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, [SUP]39 [/SUP]nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now if Paul was talking about salvation why wouldn't he have wrote this verse this way?

[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, [SUP]39 [/SUP]nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the Salvation of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Here is Romans 1.16:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Now look at Romans 10.10:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The use of Romans 8.38-39 to defend eternal security is not accurate.
I believe that hell is eternal separation from God. God is love. Romans 8:38-39 is apt for defending OSAS. Without the love of God there can be no salvation but rather damnation.
 
Mar 10, 2015
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The Jews were cut off because of their unbelief. Today, the same holds true for every other man, too. If someone does not believe the Scriptures on keeping themselves from sin and evil, then they will be cut off because they did not continue in God's goodness.

"For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Hebrews 11:21-22).

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." (Galatians 6:7-8).

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:19-24).
How can Gentiles be cut off like Jews if they are not under the law? Ther e3is no cutting off in the New COvneant, there is true repentance and change.
 
Mar 10, 2015
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1 John 3 is talking about the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil. It is essentially saying what Jesus had said. You will know them by their fruits. In this case, John clarifies it some more and says he that does not love his brother abides in death. We know this is spiritual death because John equates hating one's brother as murder. John then says in 1 John 3:15 that no murderer has eternal life abiding within them. If one murders themself it is still a form of murder. How can it not be? Does your choice of target change what that wrong action is called? In other words, when I say that Joe murdered himself yesterday, you perfectly understand that he committed suicide.
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SUICIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU ARE OUT OF CONTEXT AND I AM NOT OUT OF PATIENCE AND HAVE NO MORE COMMENTS FOR YOU!
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Your scriptural references contain people who never were saved to begin with, scriptures out of context and contexts that do not apply unto salvation......the bible teaches the security of the believer...get over it and your false doctrine....Jesus saves to the UTTERMOST, What God does it is ETERNAL, Jesus ever lives to MAEK INTERCESSION, CHRIST finishes that which he STARTED, I am in the Father's hand and in the HAND of Christ and sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT of promise and NOTHING can separate me from that position, including MYSELF as EVERY SIN I WOULD EVER COMMIT WERE paid for 2000 years ago almost when JESUS died unto sin ONCE.......My salvation is secure....too bad you have to work for yours and trust into yourself.......!
As for them not being saved to begin with: Well, that is not true. To start off, let's talk about those widows who have cast off their first faith. Okay, there are two sets of passages that teach against OSAS. The first one here is telling us that a believer cannot live in pleasure of one's sin and still live spiritually.

1 Timothy 6:5-7
"Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth. And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless."

Did you catch that? Here above we see a contrast between the widow that is serving God and the widow who is not. For it is saying that the widow who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives. Meaning she is spiritually dead while she is still living physically if she is living in pleasure. Does this mean that OSAS is true unless your a widow who lives in pleasure? I don't think so. The Scriptures say that God is not a respector of persons.

Now, on to our second passage (Which tells us that a believer can in fact fall away from the faith),

1 Timothy 6:11-15
"But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not. I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. For some are already turned aside after Satan."

Did you see what it said? In context of the previious verses, it says that we are to refuse in providing financially to young believing widows. Why? Well, if we were to give the younger (believing) widows money they will then begin to wax wanton against Christ (because they are trusting in that money) and they will marry again for the wrong reasons and have damnation casting off their first faith. It then says, some have already turned aside after Satan. Now, lets understand something here. Unbelievers cannot turn aside unto Satan. They are already in Satan's grip and need to be born again spiritually into the Kingdom of God. I cannot depart (turn aside or away from) Houston airport unless I am in Houston airport. Only believers can turn aside after Satan.

Also, these widows are said to have cast off their first faith. You can't cast off something that you don't have. You can't cast off a ball in your hand unless you possess the ball. You have to be in possession of something in order to cast that thing off.
 
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