Perfection in the Flesh - A Modern Strawman - Heresy of Penal Substitution

[rauleetoe]

The motivation is out of LOVE. It is how we obey,it comes from a heart of love which God gives us.

The reason I ask is what are the first three fruits of the Holy Spirit? Are they not LOVE,JOY,and PEACE. They are the fruits that show the Holy Spirit is dwelling in us.

Galatians 5

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,[SUP]23 [/SUP]gentleness and self-control.Against such things there is no law.

And out of love, we tell the truth. If you have a friend whom you love, would you not speak the truth to them if they are about to ruin their lives,or engage in bad behavior? even if it hurts their feelings? Because you truly love them..remaining silent is anything but loving.
It is very very hard to see the tone in what i am writing, its just words on a screen. People will read it however which way they want to. What i can say is this, I do not seek to say I am better. I am saying I found a way that is better, than just 'believing' Even recently I heard a message that simply believing is enough, nothing else must be done. But how does that help me to live for God? It cannot, it will not help! Once i discovered Holiness Theology my life has never been the same, I only wish I found it sooner..sadly most churches here do not teach Holiness, it took a while for me to discover it.
So I am sorry, but true love speaks the truth. I do not know why you'd want me to lie or possibly lie by withholding things needing to be said, But that is not a loving response. And if it offends you, well..that's not the intent. You do not see my heart, but you cannot justify outright sin. That's unbiblical. If that upsets you,well God wanted that you be upset then. Take it with him. It's his scriptures I am quoting. Read 1 john 3 in its entirety for yourself, not the 'one verse' someone copied and pasted here. And you tell me if Living for God is contrary to scripture.

 

[mark54]

I cannot know if you are hiding sins or not. But why are you so defensive? I never said i can read minds. I merely quoted scripture. You merely have to pray on it, and take it up with God. You meet God on his terms, not according to greasy grace aka false gospel grace. You have to change your life. What did Jesus say to the woman about to be stoned after her accusers left? Go, I do not condemn you(But sin no more)

Sorry if that is a bitter pill to swallow, But God is Holy. We can't lipservice ourself into the kingdom. If that offends you, well I pray you see beyond the offense and into if you are seeking to justify something.
Like i said, I never claimed to read minds.

Deal with the scriptures, not your anger towards me and your hatred for Holy Living. What did the scriptures say? What do they say to all christians? Whoever practices right living is right, whoever does not..well, you are of the devil.

When did I say I have hatred for Holy living?
Can you produce the post please or apologise?
Thanks

In whast way to I have to change my life?


When did I say repentance was not neccessary?


You don't seem keen to tell me what sins you believe I and others commit that you manage to abstain from, nor do you seem to want to tell me the work you do for God
I have to wonder if you are talking but not doing, sorry if that sounds harsh

But you do say we must be a doer of the word don't you?
That would have to include far more than chatting on these websites wouldn't it?

 

[Abiding]

I cannot know if you are hiding sins or not. But why are you so defensive? I never said i can read minds. I merely quoted scripture. You merely have to pray on it, and take it up with God. You meet God on his terms, not according to greasy grace aka false gospel grace. You have to change your life. What did Jesus say to the woman about to be stoned after her accusers left? Go, I do not condemn you(But sin no more)

Sorry if that is a bitter pill to swallow, But God is Holy. We can't lipservice ourself into the kingdom. If that offends you, well I pray you see beyond the offense and into if you are seeking to justify something.
Like i said, I never claimed to read minds.

Deal with the scriptures, not your anger towards me and your hatred for Holy Living. What did the scriptures say? What do they say to all christians? Whoever practices right living is right, whoever does not..well, you are of the devil.

Listen id bet the folks around here you talk to with disdain have works(fruit) and holyness that
if it were measured would make you look like a filthy mess. Thing is who did they receive it from?
Themselves? No thats the point and thats whats being said here.

Your far too arrogant to see noone has a problem with the truth of the word or the doctrine
your just flattering yourself too much to think thats why your being contended with. ok?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Boy are you in trouble now....but at last itll give grandpa and zone a rest

Nah he won't answer anything I say, unless someone would repost the responses I give him.

And gramps and Zone deserve rests. we are in this together. not alone!! Its a war of spiritual nature.. We all have our part!

 

[rauleetoe]

Amen
People like Rauleetoe, Skinski and Tommy are responsible for those statistics being as bad as they are.
They crush others with demands they themselves do not try and keep, and by preaching almost sinless perfection to come to God, or be a Christian, they are preaching law
For sin is transgression of the law

Which completely contradicts the core message of Paul's Gospel

I have to say it sounds more like self promotion to me than anything else

And because they make such a tabbooo out of the subject people are scared to discuss it with others and seek help

I know of Christian counsellors who counsel people who have been to their churches and become sex addicts, it is tragic
And yet they say they are pointing people to the right way, they do just the opposite in reality

You become a sex addict for refusing to be honest, and be accountable to other christians. No one ever says you cannot speak to the pastor and as far as blaming churches..that is absurd. My pastor's door is always open,and he is available to all men. Speak about your pastor, not mine. You do not know him. Do not blame churches who downright say do not stay this way and to treat God as Holy. What is your solution? To throw up a grace card and shout, grace grace grace!? You have no solution to the problem, you yourself said you cannot live for God and have to practice sin aka sinner +saint=no contradiction.

in the light of ALL that 1 john 3 teaches, read a few verses down Mark..you will see right living is required, actually it confirms you are a true christian and do not lie! So, if you want to lie, and be disingenuous,well..i am sorry..but You have been shown scripture. I understand it may not be what you wanted to hear, but its truth. You have to do something with that truth now.

Reject it or receive it.
You choose..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen
People like Rauleetoe, Skinski and Tommy are responsible for those statistics being as bad as they are.
They crush others with demands they themselves do not try and keep, and by preaching almost sinless perfection to come to God, or be a Christian, they are preaching law
For sin is transgression of the law

Which completely contradicts the core message of Paul's Gospel

I have to say it sounds more like self promotion to me than anything else

And because they make such a tabbooo out of the subject people are scared to discuss it with others and seek help

I know of Christian counsellors who counsel people who have been to their churches and become sex addicts, it is tragic
And yet they say they are pointing people to the right way, they do just the opposite in reality

It is modern day phariseeism. They just can;t see it. they think they are doing it for God. when all they are doing is handing God bloody rags and saying here God look at me. I deserve your salvation. I am not like those lowly sinners!

As if we could ever deserve Gods love

 

[rauleetoe]

Listen id bet the folks around here you talk to with disdain have works(fruit) and holyness that
if it were measured would make you look like a filthy mess. Thing is who did they receive it from?
Themselves? No thats the point and thats whats being said here.

Your far too arrogant to see noone has a problem with the truth of the word or the doctrine
your just flattering yourself too much to think thats why your being contended with. ok?

Seeing as this is from a charismatic who appeals only to gifts and not right living is quite funny.
secondly..I speak the truth. What..you have a problem with what God's word teaches because i didnt just appeal to gifts?
Take it with God..I am sorry. Read the scriptures I wrote up here in your bible,and you tell me what was said wrong? Nothing. So you name call, that is your modus operandi Abiding. It is no secret.

 

[mark54]

You become a sex addict for refusing to be honest, and be accountable. Do not blame churches who downright say do not stay this way and to treat God as Holy. What is your solution? To throw up a grace card and shout, grace grace grace!? You have no solution to the problem, you yourself said you cannot live for God and have to practice sin aka sinner +saint=no contradiction.

in the light of ALL that 1 john 3 teaches, read a few verses down Mark..you will see right living is required, actually it confirms you are a true christian and do not lie! So, if you want to lie, and be disingenuous,well..i am sorry..but You have been shown scripture. I understand it may not be what you wanted to hear, but its truth. You have to do something with that truth now.

Reject it or receive it.
You choose..

When did I use the words
I cannot live for God and have to practise sin?

I am sorry, but it sems to me you just come on the internet and make blasse statements as to how you live, in comparison to others. It is easy to just sit in a chair, tap away on the computer and say what you want.

How would I know if you were consumed by sin or not?
What do your words prove?

 

[rauleetoe]

When did I say I have hatred for Holy living?
Can you produce the post please or apologise?
Thanks

In whast way to I have to change my life?


When did I say repentance was not neccessary?


You don't seem keen to tell me what sins you believe I and others commit that you manage to abstain from, nor do you seem to want to tell me the work you do for God
I have to wonder if you are talking but not doing, sorry if that sounds harsh

But you do say we must be a doer of the word don't you?
That would have to include far more than chatting on these websites wouldn't it?

I do not chat that much on websites.
But as far as talking but not doing..I showed you scripture. You ignored it.
I never said I know what sins you do or do not do. But if you wanted me to ignore what 1 john 3 said in its entirety, seeing as you even used one verse from it. Sorry to tell you, I cannot do that.
Read the whole chapter. See what it says. Holiness is Biblical.

 

[mark54]

It is modern day phariseeism. They just can;t see it. they think they are doing it for God. when all they are doing is handing God bloody rags and saying here God look at me. I deserve your salvation. I am not like those lowly sinners!

As if we could ever deserve Gods love

Exactly
By crushing people with demands they themselves do not try and keep they are being Phariseeical

Basically it is just self promotion, telling us how holy and virtually sinless a life they lead and how we need to get where they are
I think they live in a fantsy world

Biblically speaking, we must sin less than them, for we stand on the Gospel of Grace, they do not

 

[SarahM777]

And out of love, we tell the truth. If you have a friend whom you love, would you not speak the truth to them if they are about to ruin their lives,or engage in bad behavior? even if it hurts their feelings? Because you truly love them..remaining silent is anything but loving.
It is very very hard to see the tone in what i am writing, its just words on a screen. People will read it however which way they want to. What i can say is this, I do not seek to say I am better. I am saying I found a way that is better, than just 'believing' Even recently I heard a message that simply believing is enough, nothing else must be done. But how does that help me to live for God? It cannot, it will not help! Once i discovered Holiness Theology my life has never been the same, I only wish I found it sooner..sadly most churches here do not teach Holiness, it took a while for me to discover it.
So I am sorry, but true love speaks the truth. I do not know why you'd want me to lie or possibly lie by withholding things needing to be said, But that is not a loving response. And if it offends you, well..that's not the intent. You do not see my heart, but you cannot justify outright sin. That's unbiblical. If that upsets you,well God wanted that you be upset then. Take it with him. It's his scriptures I am quoting. Read 1 john 3 in its entirety for yourself, not the 'one verse' someone copied and pasted here. And you tell me if Living for God is contrary to scripture.

You missed the point (and it is a really big one). You question if you have joy,you didn't say you had peace,if you do not have these two alone out of the nine fruits of the Spirit how do you know that you have the Holy Spirit?

Love is the fufilment of the law. Love can not sin. There is no law against love.

 

[rauleetoe]

When did I use the words
I cannot live for God and have to practise sin?

I am sorry, but it sems to me you just come on the internet and make blasse statements as to how you live, in comparison to others. It is easy to just sit in a chair, tap away on the computer and say what you want.

How would I know if you were consumed by sin or not?
What do your words prove?

A sinner practices sin.
A saint lives for God.
When you said you are both, you spoke in contradiction.
You cannot serve two masters. You really cannot, you will hate one, and love the other.

We must be committed to God. That is all. Read the Scriptures i put up. And you can decide if it applies to all christians or not.

 

[Abiding]

Seeing as this is from a charismatic who appeals only to gifts and not right living is quite funny.
secondly..I speak the truth. What..you have a problem with what God's word teaches because i didnt just appeal to gifts?
Take it with God..I am sorry. Read the scriptures I wrote up here in your bible,and you tell me what was said wrong? Nothing. So you name call, that is your modus operandi Abiding. It is no secret.

Yup your discernment is pretty good noticing im a charismatic. Man, i think i just broke a rib.
Telling you your arrogant is not namecalling. It ooozzzes from you.

 

[rauleetoe]

You missed the point (and it is a really big one). You question if you have joy,you didn't say you had peace,if you do not have these two alone out of the nine fruits of the Spirit how do you know that you have the Holy Spirit?

Love is the fufilment of the law. Love can not sin. There is no law against love.

Because He did a work in me that I could not on my own..thats why.

But once again..im just words on a screen..so, you can decide of speaking the truth is unloving.

 

[rauleetoe]

Yup your discernment is pretty good noticing im a charismatic. Man, i think i just broke a rib.
Telling you your arrogant is not namecalling. It ooozzzes from you.

Coming from someone who commanded me to not post on one of your threads..that in itself sir..is a contradiction.

 

[mark54]

But as far as talking but not doing..I showed you scripture. You ignored it.
.

Ah so this is the work you are doing that is talking and not doing

You are tapping away on your keyboard,
telling others you lead a holy, virtually sinless life, and they need to be where you are
And crushing people with demands you yourself do not even try to keep

I understand now the work you believe you have been called to do

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Exactly
By crushing people with demands they themselves do not try and keep they are being Phariseeical

Basically it is just self promotion, telling us how holy and virtually sinless a life they lead and how we need to get where they are
I think they live in a fantsy world

Biblically speaking, we must sin less than them, for we stand on the Gospel of Grace, they do not

I bet if we looked at ourselves from Gods eyes. We would all be seen as sinners, totally undeserving of Gods love (it only takes one sin so would not matter if we sinned less than them every day or not)

the problem is, we see ourselves in this way, they do not. But if we looked at ourselves from mens eyes, and we could see our thoughts and action, I agree. we would probably be less of a sinner than them..

unfortunately, it does not matter what men think, it matters what God sees.

 

[mark54]

A sinner practices sin.
A saint lives for God.
When you said you are both, you spoke in contradiction.
You cannot serve two masters. You really cannot, you will hate one, and love the other.

QUOTE]

OK
Sin is transgression of the law. Do you go even one day perfectly upholding the law?
If you do not why are you not a sinner saved by Grace? I don't understand

 

[Abiding]

Coming from someone who commanded me to not post on one of your threads..that in itself sir..is a contradiction.

Wanting you out of my thread doesnt contradict anything. Except chaos.

 

[Ritter]

And all this time I thought I was the forum's exemplar of Holy Living.